Presidential Election 2020

Chat about anything not specifically aviation related
Post Reply
User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by ericbee123 »

I’m a bit confused.

If the Democrats currently have 52 per cent of vote against Trump's 48 per cent and 100 million people didn’t vote then doesn’t that mean that Trump won.

I’m pretty sure that Tommy has said in the past that the people that don’t use their vote must be happy with the status quo. So the Democrats are in the minority, as the people who didn’t vote , by implication, don’t want change and should be counted against those that could be bothered to vote and voted for change.

Ah - no - I’ve just realised it probably only applies to referendums, or if it suits your argument at the time.

[Lights blue touchpaper and stands well back]
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

User avatar
rockfordstone
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by rockfordstone »

ericbee123 wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
I’m a bit confused.

If the Democrats currently have 52 per cent of vote against Trump's 48 per cent and 100 million people didn’t vote then doesn’t that mean that Trump won.

I’m pretty sure that Tommy has said in the past that the people that don’t use their vote must be happy with the status quo. So the Democrats are in the minority, as the people who didn’t vote , by implication, don’t want change and should be counted against those that could be bothered to vote and voted for change.

Ah - no - I’ve just realised it probably only applies to referendums, or if it suits your argument at the time.

[Lights blue touchpaper and stands well back]
or maybe they are just not politically engaged and don't care?
a vote is only counted if it is cast. you can't base a decision on what people may or may not have wanted, that's why the physical act of voting is the only way you can fairly do it.
if the logic was "they didn't vote so they must be happy with the status quo" then the remain vote would have won the Brexit referendum BIG

Teaboy
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:47 pm

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by Teaboy »

ericbee123 wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
I’m a bit confused.

If the Democrats currently have 52 per cent of vote against Trump's 48 per cent and 100 million people didn’t vote then doesn’t that mean that Trump won.

I’m pretty sure that Tommy has said in the past that the people that don’t use their vote must be happy with the status quo. So the Democrats are in the minority, as the people who didn’t vote , by implication, don’t want change and should be counted against those that could be bothered to vote and voted for change.

Ah - no - I’ve just realised it probably only applies to referendums, or if it suits your argument at the time.

[Lights blue touchpaper and stands well back]
No. There were 4 options.
Vote Biden - change
Vote Trump - no change
Vote Jorgenson (sp) - change
Don't Vote - Don't Know, Don't Care, Can't Vote, Won't Vote, Ill, ill-informed, let someone else make the deicision, but most importantly this is neither Change or No Change.

Thus Trump did not win, the only option which was a positive vote for "no change" was a vote for Trump, and he lost.

There were 3 options in the Brexit Referendum

Yes - but I don't really know why
No - but I don't really know why
Neither - because i don't know whether yes or no is the right thing to do given the information available and this is why there should have been a second referendum once things were a little clearer

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 5794
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by Tommy »

ericbee123 wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
I’m a bit confused.
Well, you might be, but I put it to you that you’re not. You’re fishing.
ericbee123 wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
If the Democrats currently have 52 per cent of vote against Trump's 48 per cent and 100 million people didn’t vote then doesn’t that mean that Trump won.

I’m pretty sure that Tommy has said in the past that the people that don’t use their vote must be happy with the status quo. So the Democrats are in the minority, as the people who didn’t vote , by implication, don’t want change and should be counted against those that could be bothered to vote and voted for change.
I’m sorry to say that I chuckled at how clever you think you are by making this point. It’s only been, what, two years.

It’s not what I said at all. Here’s the quote:
Brexit was a positive assertion, a vote “for” something, against a vote for things to remain as they were. Rather than, say, a vote for two options different to the status quo (where the “you could apply that equally to each side” claim does work more thoroughly).

But it seems to me that as the public must vote “for” the change to happen, whereas not voting would result in the status quo, the public that wanted Brexit had to go and vote for it, where as, on an academic principle, the public didn’t technically have to vote to remain, because remaining was the default if the vote for the change was lost.

So I’m not sure it is equal. I’m not saying everyone who didn’t vote were tacitly accepting remain (my brother is one such person, but I’ve no way of extrapolating that to anyone else).

I’m open to the flip-side that those who didn’t vote were simply just accepting of the outcome, whichever way it went. But I don’t think that Brexiteers can by default claim the authority of people that didn’t vote for Brexit.

I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong. Just doesn’t seem as simple for Brexiteers like Eric to claim that it applies to both sides. I think te non-voters are very slightly weighted in favour of remain, because they didn’t vote away from the default position.

I do think that the entire population needs to be considered, though. Not just the 17.4million “winners”.

Seems to me that if you win something like Brexit with a margin of 52/48, then you pursue the lightest, softest Brexit possible.

Which is what we (most logical remainers) called for after the referendum and were shut down.

There would be very minority claims for revocation/people’s vote if the Brexiteers high off their own supply of lies had made an attempt to compromise. But they never did. So any Brexiteer saying “well now it looks like no Brexit”, well, that’s on you guys. If your lot had conpromised, listened to, and worked with remainers, instead of saying “YOU LOST GET OVER IT!” And traitors and saboteurs and enemies and remainiacs, you would not have entrenched the remainers. There would always be some militant Europhiles, but not 6 million.
So it’s more of a consideration, rather than an argument. Nor did I say that everyone who doesn’t vote all sides with the status quo. I’m quite sure that there’s probably a very slight weighting towards the status quo.

And in any event, even if that was the case, the status quo wasn’t Trump. Regardless of who could have won, Trump’s presidency ends at the end of his first term. It does not constitutionally continue, unless he is actively re-elected.

If, in a hypothetical scenario, not one single person had voted for either Trump or Biden or anyone else, Trump’s presidency would still have ended constitutionally. I’m sure that in reality some sort of constitutional safeguard is put in place to avoid that, but the case is that Trump’s or anyone else’s presidency ends at the end of their first term. Unlike the Brexit referendum where, if no one voted at all, we would have continued to remain in the EU.

So no, Trump wasn’t the “status quo”. I appreciate that you’ve been waiting for almost two years to hit me with that misquote, but it doesn’t really work. Sorry to disappoint.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by CJS »

As put downs go, that's both comprehensive and pretty funny, well done Tommy :-)

I haven't actually listened to this, but based on the title and the presenters it might be worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08yf9sh
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

User avatar
T_J
Posts: 2853
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 6:57 pm
Location: Lincs

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by T_J »

The madness continues! Rudy Giuliani and his team of Trump lawyers have held a press conference today in the White House. Every possible conspiracy theory was put forward.

Rudy was having problems with his hair dye. It was running down both sides of his face.



Chris Krebs, Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, who was recently fired by Trump summed it up!


IATthenRIAT
Posts: 754
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 2:05 am

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by IATthenRIAT »

T_J wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020, 11:41 pm
The madness continues! Rudy Giuliani and his team of Trump lawyers have held a press conference today in the White House. Every possible conspiracy theory was put forward.

Rudy was having problems with his hair dye. It was running down both sides of his face.



Chris Krebs, Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, who was recently fired by Trump summed it up!

So - even politicians can be conspiracy theorists.

Tomahawk
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:14 pm

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by Tomahawk »

IATthenRIAT wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020, 11:46 pm
So - even politicians can be conspiracy theorists.
And in other news, it transpires members of the Ursidae family are known to defecate in forested areas.....

IATthenRIAT
Posts: 754
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 2:05 am

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Tomahawk wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020, 8:22 pm
IATthenRIAT wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020, 11:46 pm
So - even politicians can be conspiracy theorists.
And in other news, it transpires members of the Ursidae family are known to defecate in forested areas.....
Meaning........?

RAF4EVER
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue 27 Mar 2012, 6:49 pm
Location: Hoofddorp The Netherlands

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by RAF4EVER »

Google is your friend

IATthenRIAT
Posts: 754
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 2:05 am

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by IATthenRIAT »

RAF4EVER wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020, 11:13 pm
Google is your friend
Nope, I prefer Goofy.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by CJS »

IATthenRIAT wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020, 10:26 pm
Tomahawk wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020, 8:22 pm
IATthenRIAT wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020, 11:46 pm
So - even politicians can be conspiracy theorists.
And in other news, it transpires members of the Ursidae family are known to defecate in forested areas.....
Meaning........?
Seriously?

Urisdae family = bears
Defecate = "Kris Kris Tofferson!"
In = in
Forested areas = the woods
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

User avatar
psquiddy
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:33 am
Contact:

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by psquiddy »

Defecate = "Kris Kris Tofferson!"

??
Over 300 free things to do in London
http://www.toplondondaysout.co.uk

RAF4EVER
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue 27 Mar 2012, 6:49 pm
Location: Hoofddorp The Netherlands

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by RAF4EVER »

swear filter

IATthenRIAT
Posts: 754
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 2:05 am

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by IATthenRIAT »

So to summarize "So even politicians can be conspiracy theorists = And in other news, it transpires members of the Ursidae family are known to defecate in forested areas..... "

Yep quite a connection there - Not.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Presidential Election 2020

Post by CJS »

psquiddy wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020, 9:43 pm
Defecate = "Kris Kris Tofferson!"

??
The UKAR swear filter is so much fun, try it some time...

(note - please don't really do this, I don't think it's actually allowed...viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2

But it is very funny. :lol:)

"Well, there's no need for that"
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

Post Reply