Formula One 2021

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Ken Shabby
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Ken Shabby »

Note the wording from the stewards: “Hamilton was predominately to blame”. So not wholly to blame.

It sounds like they thought Verstappen played a part in his own downfall but had already been punished enough.
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Draken
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Draken »

Guess who said that in 2018 ;)
"Ultimately, when someone destroys your race through an error and it's kind of a tap on the hand really - they're allowed to come back and still finish ahead of that person he took out - it doesn't weigh up."

"You shouldn't really be able to finish ahead of him if you took him out of the race."
Yes, it was Lewis.

I am not a fan of either of them both, but for me it was clearly HAM who caused the collision. +10s sounds fair, however did not "punish" HAM enough to prevent his win...

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Ken Shabby »

Draken wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:06 pm
Guess who said that in 2018 ;)
"Ultimately, when someone destroys your race through an error and it's kind of a tap on the hand really - they're allowed to come back and still finish ahead of that person he took out - it doesn't weigh up."

"You shouldn't really be able to finish ahead of him if you took him out of the race."
Yes, it was Lewis.

I am not a fan of either of them both, but for me it was clearly HAM who caused the collision. +10s sounds fair, however did not "punish" HAM enough to prevent his win...
But that’s sport isn’t it? It’s not always fair; things don’t always “weigh up”. The tackle in football that puts a player out of a game but leaves the player who made the tackle still on it. The ball in cricket that sends a batsman back to the pavilion injured but leaves the bowler still on the field. Etc, etc.

I think what Lewis said then, and the resigned way in which he said it, sort of alluded to that perceived unfairness. But we have to keep the action itself uppermost in our mind, not the consequence, when we talk about things like this. Would Red Bull have been talking about legal action if Max had simply spun after Lewis touched his wheel and had then come back to win the race? I think not - but the actual action, the deed, by Lewis would have been exactly the same.

(Before anyone points out the obvious, yes I’ve always struggled with the concept of attempted murder being less of a felony than murder! I don’t see why you should get less of a sentence just because you didn’t succeed.)
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Reds Rolling
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Reds Rolling »

Gt5500 wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 12:03 pm
I think the point you are missing though, is that until just recently, that incident would certainly have been classed as a racing incident and no penalty awarded. A lot of people, myself included, are getting a bit fed up with incidents which previously would have gone unnoticed suddenly coming under scrutiny and penalties being dished out. At the end of the day it is F1 racing, not F1 drive around and politely let people by, if they carry on this way it won't take long for drivers to become reluctant to make any moves for fear of repercussions.
The point you and a lot of others here are missing, is that this isn't the old era, this is modern F1, which apparently I know nothing about! :rofl:

Take football. The game has changed; tackles that would have been classed as hard but fair a few years ago, are now a sending off offence! There's people at VAR HQ watching everything, and making decisions that they think should be implemented after watching it back on TV. Do I think it's good, not really, but that is the modern game.

What you are saying is just a racing incident in F1, is no longer deemed so. The racing stewards, who are scrutinising everything have sat there and have made a decision and that is really all there is too it.
No matter what self important 'modern F1' experts on the internet think of it, Hamilton has been found to be predominantly at fault and punished. The Golden boy dun wrong!

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Ken Shabby »

Nonsense, Reds Rolling, you only have to watch this to see it’s clearly Max’s fault:

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Georgeconna
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Georgeconna »

The Whole set up is nuts, The Commentators were saying that Hams race run but he gets the 10 secs but still manages to come up through the pack and take the win. WTF are the other drivers pandering to this lad to make it easy or are the other cars that crap there is not really any contest. Hardly a race really.
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FarnboroJohn
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:39 pm
Gt5500 wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 12:03 pm
I think the point you are missing though, is that until just recently, that incident would certainly have been classed as a racing incident and no penalty awarded. A lot of people, myself included, are getting a bit fed up with incidents which previously would have gone unnoticed suddenly coming under scrutiny and penalties being dished out. At the end of the day it is F1 racing, not F1 drive around and politely let people by, if they carry on this way it won't take long for drivers to become reluctant to make any moves for fear of repercussions.
The point you and a lot of others here are missing, is that this isn't the old era, this is modern F1, which apparently I know nothing about! :rofl:

Take football. The game has changed; tackles that would have been classed as hard but fair a few years ago, are now a sending off offence! There's people at VAR HQ watching everything, and making decisions that they think should be implemented after watching it back on TV. Do I think it's good, not really, but that is the modern game.

What you are saying is just a racing incident in F1, is no longer deemed so. The racing stewards, who are scrutinising everything have sat there and have made a decision and that is really all there is too it.
No matter what self important 'modern F1' experts on the internet think of it, Hamilton has been found to be predominantly at fault and punished. The Golden boy dun wrong!
Still won though, didn't he?

Max apparently still has to learn that though you can't win the race on an early lap, you can lose it then. I think everyone else in F1 knows that!

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Gt5500 »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 1:39 pm
The point you and a lot of others here are missing, is that this isn't the old era, this is modern F1, which apparently I know nothing about! :rofl:

Take football. The game has changed; tackles that would have been classed as hard but fair a few years ago, are now a sending off offence! There's people at VAR HQ watching everything, and making decisions that they think should be implemented after watching it back on TV. Do I think it's good, not really, but that is the modern game.

What you are saying is just a racing incident in F1, is no longer deemed so. The racing stewards, who are scrutinising everything have sat there and have made a decision and that is really all there is too it.
No matter what self important 'modern F1' experts on the internet think of it, Hamilton has been found to be predominantly at fault and punished. The Golden boy dun wrong!
I'm not talking about the good old days I'm talking about within the last two seasons. That incident earlier this year would most likely have been overlooked.
And it does matter what we think, because without us (the fans) the sport is dead in the water. If they scare every driver into avoiding any risk they may as well go home and play tiddly winks or something safe.
They've already done enough damage by moving to the dreadful sounding hybrid engines and removing the soul from the cars we don't need anymore excitement removed.
I don't think anyone was calling him the golden boy either, I'm not even arguing that he wasn't predominantly at fault. However if you want racing occasionally someone will send one up the inside and the other driver needs to recognise this and give space, if there's a crash that's a racing incident.
Brundle often describes Senna by saying he'd make a move and let you decide if we're going to crash, he is considered by many as the greatest driver of all time...

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Gt5500 »

Georgeconna wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:02 pm
The Whole set up is nuts, The Commentators were saying that Hams race run but he gets the 10 secs but still manages to come up through the pack and take the win. WTF are the other drivers pandering to this lad to make it easy or are the other cars that crap there is not really any contest. Hardly a race really.
Yes of course, he's won seven World championships because the other drivers are pandering to him and their cars are crap, nothing to do with his talent or anything.
And I know that it's incoming so before anyone says it, no, I'm not a Leiws fanboy, I actually used to prefer Button and Vettel (he seems to have lost the plot), my current favourite is Norris. But I can recognise talent when I see it and will call people out when they make statements like yours.

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rdchawk
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by rdchawk »

Put Hamilton in the current Williams and then see how good he is.
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Georgeconna
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Georgeconna »

Gt5500 wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:39 am
Georgeconna wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:02 pm
The Whole set up is nuts, The Commentators were saying that Hams race run but he gets the 10 secs but still manages to come up through the pack and take the win. WTF are the other drivers pandering to this lad to make it easy or are the other cars that crap there is not really any contest. Hardly a race really.
Yes of course, he's won seven World championships because the other drivers are pandering to him and their cars are crap, nothing to do with his talent or anything.
And I know that it's incoming so before anyone says it, no, I'm not a Leiws fanboy, I actually used to prefer Button and Vettel (he seems to have lost the plot), my current favourite is Norris. But I can recognise talent when I see it and will call people out when they make statements like yours.
Granted he is a good driver I did not say he was not, The Gulf of Performance on the Mclaren Hamilton drives to the rest of the field is not a contest and I am sure the lads further down the field make it easy nuff for him to get through. This was shown on Sundays race.

It would be interesting to have drivers switch motors during the year and see how the fare then. Fastest on the slowest etc. Never happen though.
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by helired3 »

Georgeconna wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 4:41 pm
Gt5500 wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:39 am
Georgeconna wrote:
Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:02 pm
The Whole set up is nuts, The Commentators were saying that Hams race run but he gets the 10 secs but still manages to come up through the pack and take the win. WTF are the other drivers pandering to this lad to make it easy or are the other cars that crap there is not really any contest. Hardly a race really.
Yes of course, he's won seven World championships because the other drivers are pandering to him and their cars are crap, nothing to do with his talent or anything.
And I know that it's incoming so before anyone says it, no, I'm not a Leiws fanboy, I actually used to prefer Button and Vettel (he seems to have lost the plot), my current favourite is Norris. But I can recognise talent when I see it and will call people out when they make statements like yours.
Granted he is a good driver I did not say he was not, The Gulf of Performance on the Mclaren Hamilton drives to the rest of the field is not a contest and I am sure the lads further down the field make it easy nuff for him to get through. This was shown on Sundays race.

It would be interesting to have drivers switch motors during the year and see how the fare then. Fastest on the slowest etc. Never happen though.
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Gt5500
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Gt5500 »

rdchawk wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:53 am
Put Hamilton in the current Williams and then see how good he is.
Pointless argument, the same would apply to Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris or any other driver for that matter. A much better suggestion would be put Lewis in the Red Bull or put Max in the Mercedes and see who consistently comes out on top
Edit to add I'm not saying Lewis would because I genuinely don't know.

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Gt5500 »

Georgeconna wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 4:41 pm
Granted he is a good driver I did not say he was not, The Gulf of Performance on the Mclaren Hamilton drives to the rest of the field is not a contest and I am sure the lads further down the field make it easy nuff for him to get through. This was shown on Sundays race.

It would be interesting to have drivers switch motors during the year and see how the fare then. Fastest on the slowest etc. Never happen though.
Take it you've been living under a rock for a few months then? The Red Bull has been leaving the Mercedes for dead for the past 5 races or so.
I think the fact you think Hamilton still drives for Mclaren tells us all we need to know about your current F1 knowledge.

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by rockfordstone »

rdchawk wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:53 am
Put Hamilton in the current Williams and then see how good he is.
he'd probably push it to the limits and get more out of it. george russell is getting 12th/14th fairly regular, hamilton would be getting it in the points regularly, such is his level of skill and intensity.

thing with this is you have always had a tier system of top teams (of which williams used to be one), middle tier teams (of which mercedes used to be one) and low tier teams.

hamilton ended up in top tier teams because he earned the seat in his junior racing/performances at mclaren (he broke the 10 years of the Ferrari and Renault domination), and has kept his spot in a top seat because he has been that good. not all drivers can maintain it in a top team. look how many people have had their shot in a top team and ended up sliding backwards down the grid. red bull are an ideal example of this, gasly, kvyatt and albon all showed promise in lower teams and the proved they can't handle the pace in a top team.

even if you compare him to his team mates in the last decade at merc. only rosburg once was able to beat him by 5 points, bottas hasn't matched up to him. if it's all about the car, why is bottas consistently so much slower?

i'd argue the mercedes isn't the best car this year, but hamilton knows what is needed to win, and that's the mentality that separates him from bottas, perez etc

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by McG »

Hypothetical Question.

Assuming Bottas is OUT at Merc who do you replace him with, Russell, Norris or AN Other?

From what I've seen this year I would be tempted to go Norris.

However it's all hypothetical as the rumours seem to be that it's just a matter of timing for Russell to be announced for next year.

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by speedbird2639 »

Russell already has a contract with Merc and is just driving at Williams until one of the Merc roles opens up.

So I think they would only be looking at Norris if LH retires and they sacked VB.

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by TonyC »

Georgeconna wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 4:41 pm
Granted he is a good driver I did not say he was not, The Gulf of Performance on the Mercedes Hamilton drives to the rest of the field is not a contest
Rightly or wrongly, it has always been that way, with teams such as McLaren, Williams, Lotus, Ferrari, Tyrrell and even Red Bull in the early 2010's, all having a dominant periods, be it down to the car, driver or both!
If it is equality amonst all the teams that is required, then there is always Roundabout Racing (otherwise known as IndyCar) to turn too!

I'm not sure about the Budget Cap itself, although I do understand the reasoning behind the Cap but the current engine itself, is far too complex and expensive, which prevents other companies wanting to enter the sport (see the issues that Honda experienced, when they returned and has most likely led to them withdrawing again) and I fervently hope that a return to a 'normal' V8/V6 combustion engine will be specified for 2025, saving £millions for the teams!

My personal choice of fuel would be the hydrogen fuel cell, given that the technology is already proven and ready to go, it just needs the infrastructure to be increased for the ordinary man in the street, which hopefully F1s' use, would help the teams to remain 'relevant' to the outside world and the enviroment, whilst also leading to an increase in vehicles run by hydrogen, which in turn should lead to it becoming more readily available!
Georgeconna wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 4:41 pm
...and I am sure the lads further down the field make it easy nuff for him to get through. This was shown on Sundays race.

The reason the leaders are able to get past the backmarkers so 'easily', isn't down to those at the back, moving over of their own freewill but down to the rules, and the blue flag procedures which states that if the driver being shown the blue flag, doesn't move over within 3 waved blue flags, they will or are likely to receive, a penalty!

Sure, there will be times when drivers from certain teams will allow those from another team to pass easily (think Red Bull/AlphaTauri, Ferrari/Haas/Alfa Romeo, Mercedes/Williams/Aston Martin/McLaren) and may even prevent others from overtaking easily by staying on the racing line, due to supplier loyalty but all drivers are meant to obey the blue flag procedures!

I dislike the blue flag system intensely and personally, would remove and replace it with a rule, whereby drivers have keep to the racing line, leaving the driver overtaking, responsible for making the move safely. Whilst I'm not a huge follower of the World Endurance Championship (WEC which includes the Le Mans 24 Hour), I believe this is procedure used in that Series.

Going back to the incident on Sunday and despite the arguments put forward, I am still coming down on the side of a 100% racing accident! Regardless of who was 'predomitably' at fault, the fact that the Stewards use of the word 'predomitably', indicates fault on both sides, regardless of the percentage!

Further, thinking back to the race, I do seem to remember that Sky showed onboard video footage from Max's car, before the restart, which showed Max steering left at the time that Lewis was alongside and then almost immediately, he steers right into Lewis's path and is possibly why no-one was considered 100% at fault and to my mind, should be considered a racing incident.
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by phreakf4 »

"TonyC" wrote:
he reason the leaders are able to get past the backmarkers so 'easily', isn't down to those at the back, moving over of their own freewill but down to the rules, and the blue flag procedures which states that if the driver being shown the blue flag, doesn't move over within 3 waved blue flags, they will or are likely to receive, a penalty!
This is probably the most-often incorrect statement about Formula 1 (or any other race series, and there are many) in which the blue flag is used.

A driver who is "racing for position" will not be shown, or benefit from, a blue flag.

To make this clearer;

If one is racing in P14 and comes up behind the car in P13 no blue flag will be shown.

On the other hand if one is racing in (say) P5 and comes up to lap the car in P13 then a blue flag will be shown.

In other words, Lewis would only have benefited from a blue flag whilst passing those who were already behind him on the road after his 10-second penalty but not whilst attempting to pass those (such as LeClerc, who were ahead of him on the road.
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Reds Rolling »

speedbird2639 wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021, 4:07 pm
Russell already has a contract with Merc and is just driving at Williams until one of the Merc roles opens up.

So I think they would only be looking at Norris if LH retires and they sacked VB.
Yes, Russell would appear to be the one who would step up should Bottas get the push.

I would like to see it as it would mean some competition for Hamilton at Mercedes, and we've lacked anything like that since Rosberg retired.

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by TonyC »

phreakf4 wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:05 pm
"TonyC" wrote:
The reason the leaders are able to get past the backmarkers so 'easily', isn't down to those at the back, moving over of their own freewill but down to the rules, and the blue flag procedures which states that if the driver being shown the blue flag, doesn't move over within 3 waved blue flags, they will or are likely to receive, a penalty!
This is probably the most-often incorrect statement about Formula 1 (or any other race series, and there are many) in which the blue flag is used.
A driver who is "racing for position" will not be shown, or benefit from, a blue flag.
To make this clearer;
If one is racing in P14 and comes up behind the car in P13 no blue flag will be shown.
On the other hand if one is racing in (say) P5 and comes up to lap the car in P13 then a blue flag will be shown.
In other words, Lewis would only have benefited from a blue flag whilst passing those who were already behind him on the road after his 10-second penalty but not whilst attempting to pass those (such as LeClerc, who were ahead of him on the road.
My apologies for not quoting the rules verbatum, I was trying to keep it simple and assumed that most here, would understand that I was referring to the lead cars lapping backmarkers, although I accept that for the occasional viewer, I was probably too simple, so...
  • At any time, a stationary light blue flag may be shown to a driver at the pit lane exit to warn him that cars are approaching on the track.
  • During practice, a blue flag waved on the track notifies a driver that a faster car is approaching and that he must move aside.
  • During a race, a blue flag waved on the track warns the driver that he is about to be lapped by a faster car and must not intentionally impede their progress, such as blocking a passing manoeuver.
  • A driver may incur penalties if he ignores 3 successive blue flags.
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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Unknown74 »

Sorry if anyone has asked this before but in the excellent Sequence filmed for the Channel 4 Coverage of the Race Last Weekend with Gethin Jones(I think thats his name?) the Welsh Guy, God's Own David Coulthard ( I'm Scottish so I have to stick up for him), Mark Webber and some guy called Tom Cruise who happened to star in the Movie Top Gun what type of Porsches were they racing around in pretending they were in Top Gun? Were they all the same type of Porsches?

Also is Tom Cruise in the UK for filming of the new Mission: Impossible Movie or is he already promoting the New Top Gun Maverick Movie?

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by vandal »

Unknown74 wrote:
Sat 24 Jul 2021, 7:47 pm

Also is Tom Cruise in the UK for filming of the new Mission: Impossible Movie or is he already promoting the New Top Gun Maverick Movie?
He was recently at Wimbledon with Haley Atwell (Co-Star from Mission Impossible - Fallout).

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Re: Formula One 2021

Post by Ken Shabby »

rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021, 11:16 am
rdchawk wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021, 9:53 am
Put Hamilton in the current Williams and then see how good he is.
he'd probably push it to the limits and get more out of it. george russell is getting 12th/14th fairly regular, hamilton would be getting it in the points regularly, such is his level of skill and intensity.

thing with this is you have always had a tier system of top teams (of which williams used to be one), middle tier teams (of which mercedes used to be one) and low tier teams.

hamilton ended up in top tier teams because he earned the seat in his junior racing/performances at mclaren (he broke the 10 years of the Ferrari and Renault domination), and has kept his spot in a top seat because he has been that good. not all drivers can maintain it in a top team. look how many people have had their shot in a top team and ended up sliding backwards down the grid. red bull are an ideal example of this, gasly, kvyatt and albon all showed promise in lower teams and the proved they can't handle the pace in a top team.

even if you compare him to his team mates in the last decade at merc. only rosburg once was able to beat him by 5 points, bottas hasn't matched up to him. if it's all about the car, why is bottas consistently so much slower?

i'd argue the mercedes isn't the best car this year, but hamilton knows what is needed to win, and that's the mentality that separates him from bottas, perez etc
Exactly. The driver may only be a small percentage of a car’s overall performance, but that’s the bit that wins races as opposed to rolling home second, third or fourth.

It’s why the top teams pay the Hamiltons and the Verstappens the money they do. There’s no point spending all that money on the car, only to leave it in the hands of a Bottas or a Perez. No disrespect to those guys, they’ll win you a few races, but they won’t win you championships.
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