Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

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Professor_M
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Professor_M »

https://www.airshows.co.uk/features/200 ... oeing-707/

Things can happen, if everyone gets behind it. Admittedly the above example was well over a decade ago and quite different, but it runs on the same idea, if all involved parties wanted XH558 to survive (not that there is any reason that they should), then it can survive - it just needs willpower, commitment from all stakeholders involved and a lot of money.

106500
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

5944 wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 10:11 pm
106500 wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 7:44 pm
Orion wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 9:53 am
I think this Vulcan is doomed, sorry but that's the truth. There isn't the slightest chance of it being flown out of Finningley, and there will never be enough money to dismantle it, transport it to a new site and re-assemble.
Best to look forward to better things
As I have referred to twice on this thread, there is always the chance that the notice to leave can be rescinded through appeal, negotiation and/or pressure being brought to bear on the airfield owners. I believe this is the most realistic scenario.
It's Peel, they don't negotiate. It'll be leaving, almost certainly in pieces, it's just a matter of when and whether those pieces can be reassembled again or if Peel chop it and send it straight to a scrapyard. But it won't be staying at Finningley.
I take your point about Peel Group but there’s plenty that can happen between now and next June. For example there’s talk about taking Doncaster Airport into public ownership, etc. I also think that if VTST can mobilise an effective media campaign, which they have certainly done in the past then substantial pressure can be brought to bear to bring about a change to the current situation.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by cg_341 »

Strabane! wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:14 am
My thinking is aligned with those who try to get important aircraft airborne. There are plenty of excellent examples out there which have graced our skies courtesy of those who press to get things done rather than look for reasons not to do things. Emerging examples include a beautiful Mosquito and, today, Artemis.
I'm not aware of any Mosquitos flying in the complex aircraft category under CAA regulation, perhaps I've overlooked it.

Artemis is a NASA project, funded by NASA, under regulations set by NASA, with NASA as the design authority and overall signoff of the project lies with NASA. You can, I am sure, see how this differs from VTTS and the Vulcan.

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aceyone
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by aceyone »

This may seem a bit daft but if the Vulcan is stripped of everything that can be removed without compromising it's structural integrity is there any helicopter that could possibly transport it ?
Don't know about those jets ,they spoil a very nice place

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by cg_341 »

106500 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:36 am
I take your point about Peel Group but there’s plenty that can happen between now and next June. For example there’s talk about taking Doncaster Airport into public ownership, etc. I also think that if VTST can mobilise an effective media campaign, which they have certainly done in the past then substantial pressure can be brought to bear to bring about a change to the current situation.
What significant public pressure against the Peel Group is going to make them change their mind? Maybe the BBC and ITV will abandon MediaCity and force the closures of shops there? Or maybe the public at large will refuse to go to The Lowry? Oh, maybe 60,000 people will outright refuse to buy houses on Peel Group land.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

I think that now the VTTS has achieved the initial requirement of theirs to engage revitalised discussions reference 558 and its new plight/future, it is time to await the next phase which will be fund raising once they have declared where the aircraft will end up and how it is going to get there, without that information that next phase is untenable, if history is anything to go by it will be a last minute guilt trip to gain funding for whatever scheme they already know about.

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iainpeden
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by iainpeden »

aceyone wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:45 am
This may seem a bit daft but if the Vulcan is stripped of everything that can be removed without compromising it's structural integrity is there any helicopter that could possibly transport it ?
Interesting thought - but!
Empty weight of a Vulcan is 83,500 lbs; ok that's engines, seats and all the nav kit but if you could halve it that's still c. 40,000.
Chinook (CH-47F) has a max lift of 16000 lbs.

I don't know about the big Russian choppers but the answer is probably no.

I'd also guess that unlike carrier borne a/c which are built to take the stress of being craned onto and off the carriers the Vulcan wouldn't have been engineered to be lifted.

Nice idea though.

(weights taken quickly of that web based encyclopedia so if anybody wants to nit pick feel free.)
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

106500
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

cg_341 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:47 am
106500 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:36 am
I take your point about Peel Group but there’s plenty that can happen between now and next June. For example there’s talk about taking Doncaster Airport into public ownership, etc. I also think that if VTST can mobilise an effective media campaign, which they have certainly done in the past then substantial pressure can be brought to bear to bring about a change to the current situation.
What significant public pressure against the Peel Group is going to make them change their mind? Maybe the BBC and ITV will abandon MediaCity and force the closures of shops there? Or maybe the public at large will refuse to go to The Lowry? Oh, maybe 60,000 people will outright refuse to buy houses on Peel Group land.
Well, Peel Group has had millions of pounds worth of loans for DSC using public money and recently applied for another £20 million loan - which was declined as they refused to let South Yorkshire MCA see their accounts prior to the loan being granted. In the light of this, surely political pressure can be brought to bear on such organisations who largely rely on the taxpayer to keep their business activities going? This is why VTST needs to raise the profile of their cause. I recall the Daily Mail has provided significant publicity in the past so the media certainly has a role going forward.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by tache3 »

Strabane! wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:14 am
Good morning folks, I apologise if my post is considered inappropriate. I don't post often and thought that this website was for genuine free speech.
Wrong. Its privately owned and run, with a moderation policy and rules on conduct, profanity and grammar and spelling among other things. The mods are generally tolerant of opinions and opposing views but comments and posts get binned almost every day.

The free speech you advocate obviously also applies to others and they may wish to label you an absurd fantasist. So, you would have to deal with that with dignity.

If, by any astonishing miracle, permission for a ferry flight is obtained. I suspect it will be because everything is done correctly and by the book, not by cutting corners in the manner in which you suggest.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by iainpeden »

106500
One of the issues around you're argument for public ownership is financial viability.
In the north east there exists East Midlands, Humberside, Leeds/Bradford and Newcastle as well as Doncaster; I'd suggest that's at least 3 too many.
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ericbee123
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ericbee123 »

It’s one of 15 Vulcans in the U.K. and one of 3 remaining taxying Vulcans.

It’s USP was that it IS the last remaining flyable version.

The moment it landed at Doncaster for the last time, it’s USP changed to it WAS the last flyable Vulcan.

What massive public outcry is going to happen in the next couple of months to cause Peel to change their mind ?

If Peel were even threatened with bad publicity they have 3 options ( that I can quickly think of - to combat the public outcry about losing one of 15 Vulcans ).

1. Say “Meh” as they usually do and carry on regardless.

2. Publicly donate £1,000 to each if the 14 other remaining Vulcans in the U.K. Will cost them £14,000 and highlight the fact there are 14 other Vulcans in the U.K. in the media.

3. Publicly donate £5,000 to each of the 2 other taxi-able Vulcans in the U.K. Will cost them £10,000 and highlight the fact there are 2 other taxying Vulcans.

Could also double whammy by volunteering to transport for free any spares that might be of use in Doncaster to either or both current taxying Vulcans.

Prove they don’t hate Vulcans and it’s nothing personal.

Cost them next to nothing to counter the outrage about the last flying Vulcan that most people have forgotten about after 7 years of being a static, ( like 14 others ) and sometimes taxying example ( like 2 others ).

It doesn’t have a good enough USP to get people motivated in the next few months to do anything ( well not enough to make a difference - a few loyal XH558 enthusiasts who would love to see it survive, maybe…. ).
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

106500 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:36 am
5944 wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 10:11 pm
106500 wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 7:44 pm
Orion wrote:
Sun 28 Aug 2022, 9:53 am
I think this Vulcan is doomed, sorry but that's the truth. There isn't the slightest chance of it being flown out of Finningley, and there will never be enough money to dismantle it, transport it to a new site and re-assemble.
Best to look forward to better things
As I have referred to twice on this thread, there is always the chance that the notice to leave can be rescinded through appeal, negotiation and/or pressure being brought to bear on the airfield owners. I believe this is the most realistic scenario.
It's Peel, they don't negotiate. It'll be leaving, almost certainly in pieces, it's just a matter of when and whether those pieces can be reassembled again or if Peel chop it and send it straight to a scrapyard. But it won't be staying at Finningley.
I take your point about Peel Group but there’s plenty that can happen between now and next June. For example there’s talk about taking Doncaster Airport into public ownership, etc.
I think there would be even more public outcry if public money was used to acquire DSA, and then continued to be squandered on such a loss making facility - no amount of public money is going to turn it into a profit making one.

DSA will become whatever Peel want it to became, and a major logistics/distribution centre seems the prime candidate at the moment.

I still think the most likely outcome, is VTTS can't raise the funds to move it and Peel legally take ownership of it once VTTS are evicted from the site in June 2023, and Peel park it at the entrance of the new site, as a 'gate guardian'. They might let a local group of volunteers look after it.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by purple_95 »

I still think the most likely outcome, is VTTS can't raise the funds to move it and Peel legally take ownership of it once VTTS are evicted from the site in June 2023, and Peel park it at the entrance of the new site, as a 'gate guardian'. They might let a local group of volunteers look after it.
About the most likely outcome is 558 becoming a gate guard, on a more wishful note it would be nice if Peel could give it enough room so at least the odd static run could be safely done but somehow I doubt it will even be considered.

This of course still begs the question what about the Canberra, as much as it would be a shame to see 558 scrapped or cut up for a road move the same applies to said Canberra.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

purple_95 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 1:41 pm
I still think the most likely outcome, is VTTS can't raise the funds to move it and Peel legally take ownership of it once VTTS are evicted from the site in June 2023, and Peel park it at the entrance of the new site, as a 'gate guardian'. They might let a local group of volunteers look after it.
About the most likely outcome is 558 becoming a gate guard, on a more wishful note it would be nice if Peel could give it enough room so at least the odd static run could be safely done but somehow I doubt it will even be considered.

This of course still begs the question what about the Canberra, as much as it would be a shame to see 558 scrapped or cut up for a road move the same applies to said Canberra.
It would indeed be a great shame. However, as I am sure has been discussed before, is there any realistic chance of raising the funds to restore it to flight? Nothing like the public appeal of a Vulcan (or dare I say it, Concorde)!

Given that the Bruntingthorpe setup has come to an end, there is no obvious place where it could join other retired jets even for the largely unregulated ground running.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by aviodromefriend »

Strabane! wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:14 am
My thinking is aligned with those who try to get important aircraft airborne. There are plenty of excellent examples out there which have graced our skies courtesy of those who press to get things done rather than look for reasons not to do things. Emerging examples include a beautiful Mosquito and, today, Artemis.
The Mosquito seems to have been becoming very quite the last few years, and Artemis or whatever names that project has been wearing in the past is scrubbed for today because of a number of issues. NASA doesn't press to get things going ahead, if there is any doubt, they don't go ahead. (Well, NASA has been pressed to launch a space shuttle on the 4th of July one year by politicians, but didn't bow for the pressure. For very good reasons it appeared, when they checked over Discovery again they found out that a hinge was attached in the wrong way. At reentry, it woundn't have had any chance of survival)
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

purple_95 wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 1:41 pm
This of course still begs the question what about the Canberra, as much as it would be a shame to see 558 scrapped or cut up for a road move the same applies to said Canberra.
The Canberra is yet to be even assembled, since it was brought to DSA by road IIRC, so its the easiest one to move somewhere else, if somewhere can be found to take it.
Did they ever get its original nose section shipped over from the USA after they bought it some years back...?
Last edited by GeeRam on Mon 29 Aug 2022, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 2:58 pm
Strabane! wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 8:14 am
My thinking is aligned with those who try to get important aircraft airborne. There are plenty of excellent examples out there which have graced our skies courtesy of those who press to get things done rather than look for reasons not to do things. Emerging examples include a beautiful Mosquito and, today, Artemis.
The Mosquito seems to have been becoming very quite the last few years
I suspect Covid has kept them quiet, and short of further funds, for both of the supposed UK projects.

I see the ex-highball test aircraft, B.IV DZ542, which was originally the project that the UK Pathfinder Group had acquired in Aus, before buying Glyn Powell's project, is now up for sale by AvSpec at a fixed contract price to complete to airworthy......at only a mere $US6.9m.....bargain.

I'm not convinced we'll ever see a Mosquito fly in the UK again, let alone two. If there wasn't two groups competing against each other for fund raising, there was a greater chance that we might have got one. Pathfinder Group at least have a substantially complete aircraft to start with, so if by some miracle we do get one in the UK, I'm sure it will be that one.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

TPM's still going, still fundraising, still providing newsletter updates & from what I recall from recent updates, still getting various bits built.
Next time I get a newsletter update I'll post the info in the TPM topic.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 911SC »

GeeRam wrote:
Mon 29 Aug 2022, 3:22 pm


The Canberra is yet to be even assembled, since it was brought to DSA by road IIRC, so its the easiest one to move somewhere else, if somewhere can be found to take it.
Did they ever get its original nose section shipped over from the USA after they bought it some years back...?
Ah that’ll be the one that’s been mentioned in this thread that needs disassembling, because it’s assembled, and that the ‘new’ cockpit section is still in the states then….
The Canberra has been standing outside almost, (if not), the entire time it’s been at DSA. Sitting without its tail planes fitted its a couple of hundred metres south from the Vulcan.

Your comments regarding DSA and it’s potential viability have similar levels of accuracy. Those of us connected with it since day one, have seen little competency in the running of the facility. The few managers that have been excellent, have all moved on or have had their hands tied behind their backs by the airport owners. You can see Peel’s approach in their current stance in expecting to find a buyer or business partner in less time it takes to sell a house, let alone an entire commercial airport.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by CJS »

Unless I've missed something (likely!) '558 will never fly again after a ferry flight (that we all know isn't going to happen). So surely the cheapest (only) option of saving the airframe is to cut it up and move it by road.

And if no one wants it, well then can't it just stay there and get turned in to a restaurant or a soft play centre or something. It's no more important than any of the other Vulcans, tbh I'm surprised it's managed 7 pages of chatter!
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

It has managed 7 pages of chatter because XH558 is like no other Vulcan. It is a very special aircraft for many reasons and I bet 99% of posters and readers of this forum would be very sad to see it having no future. All true aviation enthusiasts will be grateful for the fantastic entertainment 558 gave us during an incredible time and we should all rally round to do whatever is needed to protect this precious aircraft and avoid the unthinkable.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

...get turned in to a restaurant or a soft play centre or something.
You missed out glamping pod, or there's always using it as a canopy for one of the filter beds ( they wouldn't have to move it very far for that! )
It's no more important than any of the other Vulcans, tbh I'm surprised it's managed 7 pages of chatter!
Wouldn't that indicate that it is 'more important' then?

As has been commented several times, the biggest stumbling block continues to be VTST.
I can't be the only one who's expecting them to default to the same old "If we don't get a ferry flight it'll be scrapped" guilt-trip ploy...which annoyed an ever-increasing number of supporters every time they played that card in the past & there's only so many times you can do so before everyone's sick of it.

That said, I'll readily admit I'd bung some money towards it, but only under strict conditions....that the CAA first confirm that a ferry flight can take place; that all the money went to preparing the aircraft for the flight ( and absolutely none went to the VTST management or staff ) and that from the moment the plane lands at it's new location VTST will be disbanded and - unless the groundies/aircrew wish to act as unpaid volunteers - nobody from within the organisation will have anything to do with the aircraft ever again.
Same applies to dismantling it & transporting it to another location by road - the only way they'd get any of my money is if VTST or any of those associated with them played no forther part in the plane's future

Now where's my old 'flying pig' pic, because that's how much of a likelihood there is of that happening, unfortunately.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

I really don’t understand what folk have against organisations who pay their staff to do a job. I read time and again in the media outraged protests against set ups such as the National Trust and RSPCA because they pay their CEOs, CFOs etc a significant salary. I don’t think that 558 would have ever achieved the enormous success and fame it did without having properly rewarded administrators and engineers with the right talent and skillset. The old adage “You get what you pay for” has much relevance and despite the set backs they have experienced, I for one still have faith that VTST is the team best placed to secure the aircraft’s future.

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Orion
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Orion »

CJS wrote:
Tue 30 Aug 2022, 11:09 am
Unless I've missed something (likely!) '558 will never fly again after a ferry flight (that we all know isn't going to happen). So surely the cheapest (only) option of saving the airframe is to cut it up and move it by road.

And if no one wants it, well then can't it just stay there and get turned in to a restaurant or a soft play centre or something. It's no more important than any of the other Vulcans, tbh I'm surprised it's managed 7 pages of chatter!
I agree with the first paragraph, but I do have a problem with the idea of "cutting it up". It could be dismantled, finance permitting and then a "move ... by road" to a suitable location.
There are two flies in this ointment however, one is the finance, and the other is the suitable location as most, if not all of them, already have a Vulcan. Elvington might do, but then would the VTTS be welcome? They seem to be an issue too
I fear that the scrappy looms

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Stagger2 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Tue 30 Aug 2022, 12:55 pm
...get turned in to a restaurant or a soft play centre or something.
You missed out glamping pod, or there's always using it as a canopy for one of the filter beds ( they wouldn't have to move it very far for that! )
It's no more important than any of the other Vulcans, tbh I'm surprised it's managed 7 pages of chatter!
Wouldn't that indicate that it is 'more important' then?

As has been commented several times, the biggest stumbling block continues to be VTST.
I can't be the only one who's expecting them to default to the same old "If we don't get a ferry flight it'll be scrapped" guilt-trip ploy...which annoyed an ever-increasing number of supporters every time they played that card in the past & there's only so many times you can do so before everyone's sick of it.

That said, I'll readily admit I'd bung some money towards it, but only under strict conditions....that the CAA first confirm that a ferry flight can take place; that all the money went to preparing the aircraft for the flight ( and absolutely none went to the VTST management or staff ) and that from the moment the plane lands at it's new location VTST will be disbanded and - unless the groundies/aircrew wish to act as unpaid volunteers - nobody from within the organisation will have anything to do with the aircraft ever again.
Same applies to dismantling it & transporting it to another location by road - the only way they'd get any of my money is if VTST or any of those associated with them played no forther part in the plane's future

Now where's my old 'flying pig' pic, because that's how much of a likelihood there is of that happening, unfortunately.
Sounds totally fair to me BC! I happened to see a piece on BBC News early last week that ran the story about the "likely outcome of the required funds NOT being donated to save the World's last airworthy Vulcan" Technically it's true to say "the World's last airworthy Vulcan" as it WAS! However my problem with that is, they merely don't clarify that it's now relinquished that title to become "the World's last EX-airworthy Vulcan" :triumph: :rage:

With such a large BBC audience, there will be more than a few older financial supporters who will NOT see the subtle 'lying by omission' going-on here? Who will shovel cash into the money-pit of VTTSF (Vulcan to the Sewerage Farm) without noticing other similar named Charity named organisations starting with 'VTT... have singularly failed since the jet was grounded to achieve a single aim in the long-term quest to preserve XH558 in accordance with the HLF Terms, or otherwise provide the opportunity to access the jet for live or static viewing.

The Southend Vulcan had a live running day on the weekend of Airborne Eastbourne that permitted entry onto the field to witness the Vulcan Event + ad hoc show Movements, all for the princely sum starting at £7 IIRC? Can't ever see XH558 being in a situation where they would charge so little to see what is 'The People's Aircraft'. XL426 was also was scheduled to make 2 fast taxi runs( second proposed + Brake-Chute!) this Sat 27th August passed at £50 entry for adults! With age & Member Concessions.

Move the Vulcan to save it, but potentially throw the 'Care Organisation' under the wheels of Justice for alleged shortcomings in their contract IMO. :face_vomiting:

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