Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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RAF4EVER
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by RAF4EVER »

26 1/2 yards

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Paulish
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paulish »

iainpeden wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:13 pm
if it takes 3 men and a dog half a day to dig 3/4 of a hole how long is a piece of string.
“A world without string is chaos” -Rudolph Smuntz

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by iainpeden »

One takes a detention for being flippant, another is a good try but wrong and another takes another detention for being a smart Alec!
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Mooshie1956
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Mooshie1956 »

Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
The main, headline, point ought to be that, just like crowns on pint glasses and the colour of our passports, we could have done all of that whilst we were EU members.

It’s the perfect piece of nothingness that Johnson excels at.

Completely lacking in any imagination, substance, nor ambition. Almost zero effort required in implementation, it appeals to their core demographic of over-50s, and those who are against the current crop of Tories can’t call it out without giving it further publicity.

It’s a nonsense, either as a proposal or as policy.

I’ll tell you what it does show though - this government has absolutely nothing for anyone under the age of 50-60 years old. Nothing at all. Everything is pure puff and symbolism.

These policies are banged out like bringing back crowns on pint glasses, blue passports, and imperial units will somehow bring back a lost youth.

This government has long run out of any ideas, and just churns out fag-packet policies to keep the media mill turning and rolling. Next week it’ll be something equally moronic like tougher sentences for dognappers, claiming to remove EU laws that mandate high viz on building sites painted as a claw-back of “elf n safety gone mad”, or a public musing about bringing back hanging.

They’ve got absolutely nothing left in the tank. No ideas, no policies, nothing at all for anyone under the age of 50, and for those over the age of 50, all pathetic pandering to some nostalgic rose-tinted memory of the seventies.

But there we are. Those that are capable of being persuaded by the point I’ve just made have already long been persuaded, and those who would reject it have long since already rejected it. 🤷🏼‍♂️
While I agree with what you say, I would love to return to the old imperial measurements as I still have to convert metric to imperial when I want something. But I also know it's absolutely ridiculous it is to even think about it. How many generations is it now since it was last taught in schools 2 or 3 ?. With these ideas they are coming up with we are taking 3 steps back rather than trying to make a step forward.
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FarnboroJohn
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
The main, headline, point ought to be that, just like crowns on pint glasses and the colour of our passports, we could have done all of that whilst we were EU members.

It’s the perfect piece of nothingness that Johnson excels at.

Completely lacking in any imagination, substance, nor ambition. Almost zero effort required in implementation, it appeals to their core demographic of over-50s, and those who are against the current crop of Tories can’t call it out without giving it further publicity.

It’s a nonsense, either as a proposal or as policy.

I’ll tell you what it does show though - this government has absolutely nothing for anyone under the age of 50-60 years old. Nothing at all. Everything is pure puff and symbolism.

These policies are banged out like bringing back crowns on pint glasses, blue passports, and imperial units will somehow bring back a lost youth.

This government has long run out of any ideas, and just churns out fag-packet policies to keep the media mill turning and rolling. Next week it’ll be something equally moronic like tougher sentences for dognappers, claiming to remove EU laws that mandate high viz on building sites painted as a claw-back of “elf n safety gone mad”, or a public musing about bringing back hanging.

They’ve got absolutely nothing left in the tank. No ideas, no policies, nothing at all for anyone under the age of 50, and for those over the age of 50, all pathetic pandering to some nostalgic rose-tinted memory of the seventies.

But there we are. Those that are capable of being persuaded by the point I’ve just made have already long been persuaded, and those who would reject it have long since already rejected it. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Your inaccuracy is understandable with you being a yoof an' that, but us 50-60s are pretty much in the same position as you: only those older than that (maybe quite a bit older than that) are likely to see any value in Imperial measurements.

Except maybe in a very few areas: I like a pint and I understand driving in miles!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by RAF4EVER »

As a retired aircraft mechanic 67, now living in The Netherlands,I could work with Imperial and Metric systems, and to be honest I preferred Metric,the only thing I could not get into my head was Newton/Metres for torque loading,fortunately the manuals had the Imperial measurements as well

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starbuck
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

FarnboroJohn wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 9:32 pm
Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
The main, headline, point ought to be that, just like crowns on pint glasses and the colour of our passports, we could have done all of that whilst we were EU members.

It’s the perfect piece of nothingness that Johnson excels at.

Completely lacking in any imagination, substance, nor ambition. Almost zero effort required in implementation, it appeals to their core demographic of over-50s, and those who are against the current crop of Tories can’t call it out without giving it further publicity.

It’s a nonsense, either as a proposal or as policy.

I’ll tell you what it does show though - this government has absolutely nothing for anyone under the age of 50-60 years old. Nothing at all. Everything is pure puff and symbolism.

These policies are banged out like bringing back crowns on pint glasses, blue passports, and imperial units will somehow bring back a lost youth.

This government has long run out of any ideas, and just churns out fag-packet policies to keep the media mill turning and rolling. Next week it’ll be something equally moronic like tougher sentences for dognappers, claiming to remove EU laws that mandate high viz on building sites painted as a claw-back of “elf n safety gone mad”, or a public musing about bringing back hanging.

They’ve got absolutely nothing left in the tank. No ideas, no policies, nothing at all for anyone under the age of 50, and for those over the age of 50, all pathetic pandering to some nostalgic rose-tinted memory of the seventies.

But there we are. Those that are capable of being persuaded by the point I’ve just made have already long been persuaded, and those who would reject it have long since already rejected it. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Your inaccuracy is understandable with you being a yoof an' that, but us 50-60s are pretty much in the same position as you: only those older than that (maybe quite a bit older than that) are likely to see any value in Imperial measurements.

Except maybe in a very few areas: I like a pint and I understand driving in miles!
Exactly this. It's ridiculous that anyone is even contemplating that imperial is coming back at the expense of metric, especially to appease or to appeal to such a small and ever dwindling section of the electorate.

It's just not going to happen and I still haven't seen anything other than speculative paper talk merely suggesting it could. If anyone can direct me to government policy that says otherwise please do.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

iainpeden wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:13 pm
if it takes 3 men and a dog half a day to dig 3/4 of a hole how long is a piece of string.
I want to know, please, if all 3 men & the dog dug an equal share of the 3/4 of the hole, how much did each one dig?

With regard to the string, is the answer that the length of string is the diameter of the 3/4 of the hole?

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by RAF4EVER »

the answer is: the square root of infinity divided by itself, times the cube root of the worlds population of lemmings

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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

FarnboroJohn wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 9:32 pm
Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
The main, headline, point ought to be that, just like crowns on pint glasses and the colour of our passports, we could have done all of that whilst we were EU members.

It’s the perfect piece of nothingness that Johnson excels at.

Completely lacking in any imagination, substance, nor ambition. Almost zero effort required in implementation, it appeals to their core demographic of over-50s, and those who are against the current crop of Tories can’t call it out without giving it further publicity.

It’s a nonsense, either as a proposal or as policy.

I’ll tell you what it does show though - this government has absolutely nothing for anyone under the age of 50-60 years old. Nothing at all. Everything is pure puff and symbolism.

These policies are banged out like bringing back crowns on pint glasses, blue passports, and imperial units will somehow bring back a lost youth.

This government has long run out of any ideas, and just churns out fag-packet policies to keep the media mill turning and rolling. Next week it’ll be something equally moronic like tougher sentences for dognappers, claiming to remove EU laws that mandate high viz on building sites painted as a claw-back of “elf n safety gone mad”, or a public musing about bringing back hanging.

They’ve got absolutely nothing left in the tank. No ideas, no policies, nothing at all for anyone under the age of 50, and for those over the age of 50, all pathetic pandering to some nostalgic rose-tinted memory of the seventies.

But there we are. Those that are capable of being persuaded by the point I’ve just made have already long been persuaded, and those who would reject it have long since already rejected it. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Your inaccuracy is understandable with you being a yoof an' that, but us 50-60s are pretty much in the same position as you: only those older than that (maybe quite a bit older than that) are likely to see any value in Imperial measurements.

Except maybe in a very few areas: I like a pint and I understand driving in miles!
I don’t think it is inaccurate. The U.K. officially adopted the metric system in 1965 (I note, at the behest of British industry, and prior to us joining the EEC/EU), so that would place someone as 55/56. I applied the term “over 50s” because not only is it a particular demographic. Like “over 30s” or whatever.

But I accept that that was when people in their 50s/60s were at best four or five years old, but accounting for a few years of inertia, and there being no other place to draw the line (65 and up? 70 and up?), that’s why I chose then.

Pints and miles are understood because they still legal units of measurement in the U.K. for those areas.

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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

starbuck wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 10:47 pm
If anyone can direct me to government policy that says otherwise please do.
Here you go bud, dated 16th Sept from Lord Frost:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... eforms.pdf

It’s part of the official Governmental Policy document entitled “Brexit opportunities”.
The second phase of our response includes a package of proposed individual regulatory reforms to laws inherited while a member of the EU which the Government is setting out today.

[fourth bullet]:

- Review EU restrictions on selling in pounds and ounces - We will review the EU ban on markings and sales in imperial units and legislate in due course
[my additions/emphasis]

So, it very much is policy. It’s under the subheading of “proposed individual regulatory reforms” And note the affirmation in language of the actual bullet point “We *will* review… and legislate”. Not “might”.

Now, of course, until a white paper or a bill is produced, or indeed, the legislation passes its readings and gains royal assent, of course there’s no guarantee. And the way this government treats its obligations and promises, there’s no guarantee that this isn’t all just a bit of puff.

And I also accept that we don’t know what it looks like. It could be that they review and legislate that all is fine and to carry on as is (but I don’t know why you’d need to legislate for that, because it’s already legislated - no one passes a new law saying “yeah, all Is fine… keep on, guys!”).

It’s a bit like aircraft participation at airshows - until wheels are on the tarmac, there’s no guarantee, and occasionally, even wheels on the tarmac isn’t a guarantee (damn you, French Navy!). But it would equally be a nonsense to operate on the basis that nothing is ever confirmed until it starts it’s display, otherwise you’d never buy a ticket to anything ever.

So, I think people are right to take it at least somewhat seriously given that it’s (incredibly) an official Government policy proposal.

Complete side note, but the entire policy document is predictably awful and fag-packet. You can tell Lord Frost has whipped around every government department and asked them to fire off a bunch of incoherent “reforms” on a rainy Friday afternoon. For one thing, there isn’t an EU ban on the use of imperial measurements. The EU dropped any proposals to completely do away with imperial units in 2009 as a result of those horrible nasty unelected bureaucrats… listening to the people who protested, I guess? Oops. We adopted metric in 1965, prior to us joining the EEC/EU, and we still use imperial for speed, distance, and bevvies with the lads. It’s an absolute nonsense policy document, so is suspect it won’t become a thing simply by virtue of legislative illiteracy, but the government don’t care and it doesn’t stop them from claiming the positive press for saying they *will* do it.

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starbuck
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

I agree a lot with your last post Tom but I'm afraid I still don't read that as official government policy that they are intending to replace metric with imperial. Re introduce imperial if business want to use it. replace metric. No.

Like you and others have already alluded to we have never completely embraced the metric system anyway, its never been that big of a deal that any government has ever felt the need to either campaign or legislate for in the last 50 odd years and I've not read anything in the last 24 hours that makes me think I am going to have to change the way I do my job in the construction industry using metres and millimetres.

Just as a postscript my 78 year old father voted to remain and still can't tell me what a centimetre looks like. I wanted to leave and have no clue how long 3 inches are.

Never been an issue for either one of us except in the rare occasion we have been carrying out some DIY job together.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

I was born in 1965.

I vaguely remember being taught £,s and d and how relieved I was when we adopted the decimal system for £ and pence when I was 6.

I fish matches and can tell you the length of a fish in cm and it’s weight in pounds.

I can tell you the height of someone in feet and inches and their weight in pounds and stones.

If something is small, say a fence, I’ll probably tell you it’s about a metre tall. If it’s double that height I’ll probably says it’s about 6 foot !

I can tell you the miles per gallon my car does and how many litres my tank takes. I have absolutely no idea how many gallons my car holds !

If it’s really cold it’s around zero degrees centigrade, it’s it’s really hot, it’s above 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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Paulish
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paulish »

ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 18 Sep 2021, 1:31 pm
I was born in 1965.

I vaguely remember being taught £,s and d and how relieved I was when we adopted the decimal system for £ and pence when I was 6.

I fish matches and can tell you the length of a fish in cm and it’s weight in pounds.

I can tell you the height of someone in feet and inches and their weight in pounds and stones.

If something is small, say a fence, I’ll probably tell you it’s about a metre tall. If it’s double that height I’ll probably says it’s about 6 foot !

I can tell you the miles per gallon my car does and how many litres my tank takes. I have absolutely no idea how many gallons my car holds !

If it’s really cold it’s around zero degrees centigrade, it’s it’s really hot, it’s above 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
For most of the time, the mixed use of different systems of measurement doesn’t really matter, but occasionally it does with huge implications in terms of cost and possibly safety. The loss of a mission to Mars occurred as a result of a simple schoolyard mistake. I think we have a settled position after so many years with regard to our pick and mix use of different measurement systems. It could be potentially disastrous if we try to force through yet more change.

https://everydayastronaut.com/mars-climate-orbiter/

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by farnboroughrob »

I would agree with alot that has been said. I am 51 and always lived with the metric system. Does anybody ever go and by X KG,LB or what ever of anything anymore? Not that i ever go to the market, but would you just not say can I have 6 apples, or a punnett of strawberries? Like the crowns this is a win in the minds of Brexiteers when we are facing empty shelves and staff shortages all round. It is sad when tiny things like this are considered a win.

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Paulish
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paulish »

farnboroughrob wrote:
Sat 18 Sep 2021, 5:11 pm
I would agree with alot that has been said. I am 51 and always lived with the metric system. Does anybody ever go and by X KG,LB or what ever of anything anymore? Not that i ever go to the market, but would you just not say can I have 6 apples, or a punnett of strawberries? Like the crowns this is a win in the minds of Brexiteers when we are facing empty shelves and staff shortages all round. It is sad when tiny things like this are considered a win.
It’s important to some and apparently it makes us more British.

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DerekF
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by DerekF »

Anyone who is in the aerospace industry has to deal with a mixture of units all the time. Depending on their origin aircraft weights are in kg or lb, one aircraft I knew of, had the loadsheet data in kg - inches. A nightmare.
Many of the atmospheric and air data equations are empirical and only work in imperial units, dealing with pressure in psi or speeds in ft/sec or kts and densities in slug/cubic ft etc. become second nature. Unless the aircraft industry moves from knots, feet etc. then imperial units will be around a long time.
Like Ericbee, I use a mixture depending on the circumstances. It isn't a problem. What is a problem is clowns like Farage suggesting that imperial measurements are somehow an indication of Britishness.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 11:18 pm
FarnboroJohn wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 9:32 pm
Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
The main, headline, point ought to be that, just like crowns on pint glasses and the colour of our passports, we could have done all of that whilst we were EU members.

It’s the perfect piece of nothingness that Johnson excels at.

Completely lacking in any imagination, substance, nor ambition. Almost zero effort required in implementation, it appeals to their core demographic of over-50s, and those who are against the current crop of Tories can’t call it out without giving it further publicity.

It’s a nonsense, either as a proposal or as policy.

I’ll tell you what it does show though - this government has absolutely nothing for anyone under the age of 50-60 years old. Nothing at all. Everything is pure puff and symbolism.

These policies are banged out like bringing back crowns on pint glasses, blue passports, and imperial units will somehow bring back a lost youth.

This government has long run out of any ideas, and just churns out fag-packet policies to keep the media mill turning and rolling. Next week it’ll be something equally moronic like tougher sentences for dognappers, claiming to remove EU laws that mandate high viz on building sites painted as a claw-back of “elf n safety gone mad”, or a public musing about bringing back hanging.

They’ve got absolutely nothing left in the tank. No ideas, no policies, nothing at all for anyone under the age of 50, and for those over the age of 50, all pathetic pandering to some nostalgic rose-tinted memory of the seventies.

But there we are. Those that are capable of being persuaded by the point I’ve just made have already long been persuaded, and those who would reject it have long since already rejected it. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Your inaccuracy is understandable with you being a yoof an' that, but us 50-60s are pretty much in the same position as you: only those older than that (maybe quite a bit older than that) are likely to see any value in Imperial measurements.

Except maybe in a very few areas: I like a pint and I understand driving in miles!
I don’t think it is inaccurate. The U.K. officially adopted the metric system in 1965 (I note, at the behest of British industry, and prior to us joining the EEC/EU), so that would place someone as 55/56. I applied the term “over 50s” because not only is it a particular demographic. Like “over 30s” or whatever.

But I accept that that was when people in their 50s/60s were at best four or five years old, but accounting for a few years of inertia, and there being no other place to draw the line (65 and up? 70 and up?), that’s why I chose then.

Pints and miles are understood because they still legal units of measurement in the U.K. for those areas.
(See bold) No, you're flat out wrong. Pints and miles are understood because we use them all the time and have never stopped doing so. I understand a km in the context of running a 5K element of a triathlon but I don't understand (i.e. have a feel for the meaning of in terms of hours and physical effort) driving 500 km.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Gt5500 »

How can he be flat out wrong? They are still used because they are still the legal units for those particular things.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Gt5500 wrote:
Mon 20 Sep 2021, 11:03 pm
How can he be flat out wrong? They are still used because they are still the legal units for those particular things.
That isn't the question though. The point being made is that those of us that drink pints understand pints as a volume concept: if you ask me to measure my beer intake in half litres then I can't relate it to my lifetime experience and am likely to err in judging my capacity.

Similarly I understand perfectly how far 400 miles is (perhaps I should have said 500 - and then another 500 :laughing: ) - but 800 kilometres conveys nothing to me when judging my ability to undertake, or the time to complete, a long drive.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

Like with everything else Brexit leaders sold to the voters, the U.K./US trade deal was talked up, over-spun, the huge awesome deal that would vindicate Brexit…

Right up until the time it failed, and then they quietly admit that the experts who insisted it wouldn’t be a priority for America were right all along:


Gt5500
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Gt5500 »

FarnboroJohn wrote:
Tue 21 Sep 2021, 1:07 am
That isn't the question though. The point being made is that those of us that drink pints understand pints as a volume concept: if you ask me to measure my beer intake in half litres then I can't relate it to my lifetime experience and am likely to err in judging my capacity.

Similarly I understand perfectly how far 400 miles is (perhaps I should have said 500 - and then another 500 :laughing: ) - but 800 kilometres conveys nothing to me when judging my ability to undertake, or the time to complete, a long drive.

Yes I know that, but we only
understand them because they didn't go away as they remained the legal units for those things. Which is what Tommy said, hence he can't be flat out wrong because he's basically agreeing with you.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

Pints is only used for (some) alcohol and milk. Every other drink you buy like fruit juice, squash, fizzy or water is in litres.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

It's so good we can get back to drinking a proper 750 ml of wine now, after having for years to be humiliated by Brussels insisting on wine bottles being 750 ml.

These things are all just distractions to keep us not thinking about inflation rises, energy price rises, food shortages, covid rampaging through schools, etc, etc.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by iainpeden »

My father in law (ex RN) always referred to a pint of rum.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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