Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Mon 23 Jul 2018, 9:43 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Don't know how much coverage it's received outside of Wales, but the Royal Welsh Show started today -- despite it's name, farmers from all over the UK are there.
One of the main things being discussed there is the effect leaving the EU - and in particular, leaving without a deal being reached - will have on Welsh & British farming....and from farmers I know, they're scared.
Because of the incentives, too many of them throughout the UK switched from livestock & arable foodstuff production to producing rapeseed & other crops to be used for bio-fuel production.
The fear now is that the UK Government won't continue the incentive scheme which allows them to make a profit from this, nor will it make any grants available to allow them to switch back to foodstuff production.
That'll lead to a lot more bankruptcies than there already are.
In Wales in particular, over 90% of foodstuff produced ( meat in particular ) goes to other EU Countries. If/when tariffs are introduced, that won't happen.
At the same time, they'd find it difficult - if not impossible - to compete on price with foodstuff being imported into the UK.
There's also the 'Product of the UK' con where foodstuffs are imported from overseas and merely packaged in the UK which - under current regulations - entitled them to be labelled as soming from here....you can bet that that will change if we leave the EU without a deal.

Ironically, given that most of them appear to have voted to leave, the same could be said for the UK fishing fleet.
Many of the skippers sold their licenses to foreign companies, and even with the UK-flagged boats at the moment most of the catch is sold to other EU Countries rather than being consumed in the UK.

As for the UK manufacturing it's own goods, we're pretty much stuffed.
Most of the large manufacturing companies are foreign-owned & the remaining SMEs would find it difficult to cope, especially if HMG don't match the subsidies those companies receive from the EU.
A lot of what the UK produces isn't really produced here, it's merely assembled, in the same way that European & Asian companies have set up assembly plants in the USA to avoid tariffs..... what incentive is there for them to continue that practice if we leave the EU without a proper trade deal?
Similarly, a number of the few remaining UK steelworks don't actually smelt their own steel, they import cheap ingots from countries such as Russia.... by doing so, they can label it as being produced in the UK, thus avoiding EU tariffs & being able to charge more for it than they can if they produce it in the country the ingots came from.
( As an aside, a lot of the steel - and aluminium - works were purchased by Indian companies....many - especially the aluminium-works - were either stripped out completly then demolished, or they stripped out the majority of the smelting equipment...and what they stripped out was either shipped to India for use or was shipped to other EU countries - Italy in particular - where they also owned similar plants )


I think the farmers are just as much of a disparate group in this debate as any other, I well remember the president of the NFU being interviewed just after the result and he was very bullish (pardon the pun) about the opportunities that would come out post brexit and how it was the chance the industry needed for reform and re-invention away from the EU shackles. Incidentally when have you ever heard a farmer get in front of a microphone and be anything but miserable?

With the foreign companies that have invested here you need to ask the question why did they choose to invest here? If it was to get access to easy trade conditions within Europe or use the EU's trading agreements with the rest of the world to their advantage then why didn't they choose to invest in another mainland EU country where they would have received the exact same benefits but where wage costs are a lot lower and therefore production savings would be that much greater? There's more about us than just being in the EU. Will it be enough to counter-act any potential negative tariffs that may be in the offing? I don't know but I hope so.

Recently work has meant that I have had to go to the mainland and I was truly shocked at some of the work practices. I was on a construction site where health and safety was pretty much non-existent, to the point where there was a fatality and our British contractors were refusing to go onto the site. Local authorities came along, asked a few questions and the site was open again within a day (in fact i don't think it was ever officially shut down). This happened in Germany. Anecdotal I know but it showed me that we sometimes make assumptions that everyone else is better or more efficient & professional than us and they are not.

The point over the steel and Aluminium is a good one, especially the Indians moving kit over to Italy. How is that if Cunard need a new Queen Mary chances are it will get built on French or Italian stocks? Alright our ship building days have sailed (another pun, sorry) but how come the Italians have flourished? They are not a third world country paying miserly wages to their skilled workforce, ok they may be less than ours but not by that much. They don't dig anymore Iron ore out of the ground than we do and yet another EU country very similar in size to the UK can afford to do something we can't. Because it's state owned. State owned by a government that has to go cap in hand to the EU because they are broke. A state owned company that just bought a 50% stake in a French ship building company that was yep, you guessed it, owned by the French government. So I guess the French won't be making too much of a noise at the table next time the Italian re-payments are on the agenda.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 24 Jul 2018, 6:28 am

Farmers :
They bought into the myths which were being peddled by the 'Leave' politicians, but it's becoming increasingly clear that in part due to the abysmal handling of the procedure - they've now realised that that's all they were...myths.

Foreign investment :
A number of reasons.
Compared to many other EU countries....the Unions aren't very strong; UK wages are lower ( and working hours longer ); Takeover regulations are lower ( with employees still having less rights ); HMG & local government offered them bigger bribes ( sorry, 'incentives' ) to locate here.
A number of those investors have now relocated the companies to the newer EU countries when it became more profitable to do so.
A number of those investors also bought-up companies in other EU countries ( heavy industry being a prime example ) and agin they relocated the companies when it proved more profitable to do so.
Don't know about the rest of the UK, but here in Wales the most recent target of overseas investors is commercial office-space rather than industrial premises.

Regulations :
It's been well known for years that the UK takes a different approach to other EU countries....we enforce them rigorously and wrote into law many which were only advisory.
Other EU countries either pay lip-service to, or completely ignore, many of them.
The UK also has different - more restrictive - interpretations of many of the rules, which is why we're the only EU country to insist on only allowing stainless steel work-surfaces in the catering industry, for example.
Similarly, we're the only one with such a ridiculous 'hi-vis & hard-hat' culture.

State ownership :
Other EU countries have a lot more of it than the UK.
It's down to their governments not flogging it off for a quick profit as has happened here, which to a large extent is down to the power of the unions in those countries.
They also don't have the ridiculous mantra of "Nationalised is bad, privatised is good" which UK governments over the last 40-50 years have operated under.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 24 Jul 2018, 9:00 am

If we do get a no deal Brexit, will May be forced to resign? or will she lay the blame with the EU?

The reality of the situation is starting to come through, SKY news talking about the UK ports not having the capacity to take extra checks.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 24 Jul 2018, 9:29 am

As Conservative MP Heidi Allen said on 'Daily Politics' yesterday, "She'll be PM until the next General Election" :lol:
There doesn't seem to be much support for her from Conservative MPs....the pro-Leave ones don't like her because she's not 'hardline BREXIT' enough; The pro-Remain ones don't like her because they think she's pandered too much to the pro-Leave MPs; The rest don't particularly like her because they think she's splitting the Party and making a total pig's ear of the Leave negotiations.
You can also throw in those who don't like her because of the deal she made with the DUP.
As PM, she's a dead woman walking, but nobody will challenge her until after we leave ( be interesting what happens if she gets an extension on that ) because they all know that the job is currently a poison chalice.


As for the sudden realisation by the media that ports ( and airports ) don't have the capacity for extra checks, they're pretty slow on the uptake.
That's been known about for many years -- the customs-check areas the ports used to have were massively reduced in size years ago, HMC&E/UKBF/whatever they're called these days, was drastically downsized with regards funding & manpower years ago and that process has continued.
Hauliers have been warning what will happen for years ( heck, even the Government have admitted as much with their plans to turn Manston & other SE Coast areas into giant truck-parks )

Some of us remember when you could spend several days in the queue waiting to clear Customs in both the UK and Europe, and having to use designated border crossings to clear Customs through each Country you entered.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 25 Jul 2018, 8:33 am

ericbee123 wrote:So the WTO deal that I posted about civil aircraft that states from the WTO website that the U.K. ( and loads of othe EU members) signed independently AND as part of the EU is incorrect ?


From WTO website.

This plurilateral agreement entered into force on 1 January 1980. There are 32 signatories: Albania; Canada; Egypt; the European Union (the following 20 EU member states are also signatories in their own right: Austria; Belgium; Bulgaria; Denmark; Estonia; France; Germany; Greece; Ireland; Italy; Latvia; Lithuania; Luxembourg; Malta; the Netherlands; Portugal; Romania; Spain; Sweden and the United Kingdom);



No, the quote is correct. Though you’re using one of only two plurilateral WTO agreements, but you misunderstand it.

The UK is a member of the WTO in its own right, and UK’s commitments under the WTO are set out in its pair of schedules, which I keep talking about and explained in my long WTO post. Those schedules (there is some disagreement as to whether we have them at all from some people, but common consensus is that we do) are inextricably linked with the EU. This is what I keep saying.

I know I just used the word “inextricably”, but we have to extract our schedules from the EU’s pair of schedules, and present them to the WTO independantly which, as they are intertwined with those of the EU, mean hundreds of lawyers will have to go over them painstakingly and pick out the bits of the schedules we extract apply to us, and remove bits apply to the EU.

There are no separate schedules that have been double-signed each time the EU enters an agreement. No documents gathering dust in Strasbourg that the UK can just pick up and say “thanks for double-signing everything, we’ll have these back now. Bye!” The UK’s schedules are part of the EUs. It’s the same pair of documents. We need to sit down with the EU’s schedules, pull out our bits to form our own schedules, from those bits we pull out, disentangle what is not relevant to us, and *then* present them to the WTO.

Once we have done that, that is what allows us to use the EUs negotiated tariffs, rather than the unattractive WTO base rates. If we didn’t have schedules, we would have to start from scratch and wouldn’t have the benefit of being able to use the rates we enjoy whilst in the EU. An even more unthinkable scenario.

And, again, I haven’t even started talking about the even-more headache inducing tariff rate quota problems yet.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 25 Jul 2018, 10:40 am

Not helped when you've got throbbers like 'IBS' ( who seems to be the mouthpiece for the Leave campaigners these days ) trying to convince people that there's no difference between being in the EU & defaulting to WTO rules, or that there aren't hard-line 'Leave' MPs who would be quite happy if we didn't even get an agreement on operating under WTO rules.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 25 Jul 2018, 10:55 am

In response to Tommy’s post.



And.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1KE2LJ
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby DonaldGrump on Wed 25 Jul 2018, 10:17 pm

What an interesting debate. There is no question that not only here but across the EU there is a plague of absolutely clueless politicians whom will I expect manage to find a way of making this whole thing a much bigger balls up than most on either side would believe. However all this debate of whether we will all be better or worse off, how it might knacker our trips to Benidorm does rather miss a more sombre fact.

The EU simply will not work, its is done for, its is going to collapse and when it does there will be blood on the streets and conflicts all over the place. It simply got to greedy, and expanded and then started to eye Federalisation and from that moment it was doomed.

Gorbachev called it right when he stated the EU was a Soviet Union wearing a western suit. Those responsible for the course the EU has chosen have ignored the lessons from history that both the Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia give. The Eu was and should have remained a small group of reasonably similar countries making it easier to conduct business with each other.

I voted leave simply because I think we are better off already out of it when the whole thing implodes at some point in the not too distant future am sure.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 7:21 am

As many people throughout the EU have been saying for years, it's in serious need of reform.
You've got Countries which are supposed to be trading partners but in reality are still playing one-upmanship with each other.
You've got Countries who should never have been allowed to join in the first place.
You've got the expansion Eastwards, which has antagonised Russia.
You've got the Single Currency, which Countries which didn't meet the criteria were allowed to join.
You've got the continued financial bailing-out of failed Countries.
You've got the ongoing illegal immigrant/economic migrant crisis, where a few Countries are now holding the rest of the EU to ransom, which is exacerbated by the refusal to allow member Countries to re-impose border controls ( even when those Countries aren't members of the Schengen Area )

The problem is that some of the core Countries ( primarily Germany & France ) equate reform with an admission of failure, rather than being a sensible move.
So there's no way that they'll take the first major steps needed, namely kicking out/suspending the likes of Greece & Italy from the EU, kicking out/suspending the likes of Ireland & Portugal from the Single Currancy, and allowing the instigation of proper border controls.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 10:50 am

I've been following the debate with interest and contributors on both sides have been putting some good points across. Here's a few more to consider.

The thread has concentrated to date on the economy. Brexit was about much more. I suggest it was about three main things:

1. How do we want to be governed?
2. What is our collective identity?
3. How do we get the best quality of life in the modern world?

Take 1. The choice is between having a semblance of democracy whereby every 5 years the collective people get to choose between two similar outcomes or... having a facade of democracy where every 5 years we vote on something that makes no difference.

In doing my research for both arguments I came across a blog by a former ambassador to Poland. He's a former senior member of the British civil service so you can guess which side of the argument he's on. This is what he says about the EU:

Former UK Ambassador to Poland wrote:"The EU only works by systematically diluting ‘democracy’ in favour of international technocracy. Take the UK case.

We vote for MPs who in turn vote to set up a majority government in Parliament. That government strikes deals with other EU governments on what is now a vast range of issues. Much of the work for creating the EU-level rules is done by international civil servants with no formal national loyalties but who are paid to take a view on the interests of the EU space as a whole.

Member states get to haggle with each other in EU processes and as necessary vote on EU decisions. On most EU decisions there is ‘qualified majority voting’, a form of voting that gives far greater weight to the notional votes and voters of smaller EU countries by population. Decisions taken at EU level can not get seriously challenged by national parliaments, whether that country’s government have been on the winning side of the QMV decision or not.

Beyond all these layers of dense processes there are the separate bodies that issue decisions affecting the EU/Eurozone as a whole including the European Central Bank and the European Court of Justice."


Question is... 'What form of government do you want?

Issue 2: Identity - If you want a cohesive, harmonious society, it's human nature to like and socialise with people who are like us. Don't believe me? This is an aviation site. You are at the bar with two people, one likes aviation and has a similar view to your own, the other thinks it's noisy, polluting and the worst thing to be invented. Who would you prefer to spend your evening with? Since the serious EU integration started in the UK with the Maastricht treaty, we've had constant media and political rhetoric about multi-culturalism being good and preaching tolerance. This is the political equivalent to forcing a square peg in a round hole and has repeatedly been shown to fail. Yes, you can have a facade of a functioning society but scratch beneath the surface and look what's beneath. If you want true cohesion you have to have a collective identity which means destroying the current one and replacing it with something 'average'. There's examples of this happening in England, but the UK establishment haven't dared do this in Scotland or Ireland yet. I wonder why? For it to happen EU wide, where the cultures and history are so ingrained I'm not sure this could ever happen. You just have to look at Catalonia in Spain to see this. Apart from anything else, language is such an important part of culture and the way we think and structure things that we would have to have a common language. Fancy telling the French their new national language is English? This doesn't even take into account the flood of new cultures that are arriving from Africa. There are places where mass immigration/integration works. The USA is a good example. To make it work though they destroyed the native American Indian culture and replaced it with chanting unwavering allegiance to the American flag from birth.

Issue 3: Economy - Much has been said already about this so I won't say much more. Just to say the UK is undoubtedly tangled with the EU economy and to untangle will inevitably involve disruption; but has it been good for the average UK citizen? There are two figures typically banded about by economists. The first GDP describes how big the pie is for the bankers to skim their un-worked for percentage and the other is GDP-per-capita which describes how much from the economy the average citizen benefits. We can compare these figures throughout the world. What it shows is that compared with undeveloped nations the UK is doing very well but compared with what could have been we aren't. Look at Australia vs UK: GDP $1.2tn vs $2.6tn i.e. half as big an economy: GDP/c $49,928 vs $39,900 i.e. Australian citizens are 25% better off. Not bad for a bunch of convicts. If you look at the historic figures, it's while the UK has been part of the EU that they've taken this lead.
Last edited by verreli on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:03 am

Verreli... if there was a post of the week competition, i'd vote for that in a heartbeat...

Careful though, you'll be branded a moron or a racist in no time if you keep talking sense like that.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:46 am

A very good post with a lot for someone in either camp to chew on and think about, but alas, it’s 25 months and a day out of date.

These are all questions and discussions that needed to be asked before the votes were cast. As it is, we are leaving. I don’t think that there will be a second referendum, or at least I’m operating on the presumption that there won’t be a second referendum unless and until one is confirmed. If that happens, those points once again become very necessary components of a nuanced and mature discussion amongst ourselves. Right now, though, I’m unsure how they help either side.

The reason we are talking so in depth about boring guff like the WTO and everything else, is because, right now, we are leaving. We’re barrelling at breakneck speed towards that two year deadline. The discussion to be had now is how we leave, how we get the best out of leaving, how we mitigate or eliminate the risks of leaving, and what the consequences are of failing to do those things as and when we leave.

There’s no point in pondering the merits of installing smoke alarms whilst your house is already on fire.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:55 am

At the moment it just seems that we are believing all of the EU's bluffs and they are wise to all of ours. The idea of negotiating something so important in public has to be one of the worst political decisions in history.

I genuinely believe that if we were willing to leave without a deal (which we're plainly not) and were clear in our assurances that our leaving date was absolutely not going to be moved, things would probably look quite frightening up until the last minute - but we'd get a low tariff deal in the end. It's in both sides' interests. The only reason the EU don't want to do it is that other countries might then ask for a better deal from the EU, and if you hadn't noticed - the EU is rather intransigent on such matters.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:39 pm

You think these 2 events would have been more widely reported in the British press ?

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1J11TK


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1KE2LJ

I did sneak one in earlier. Does this mean that despite the politicians and the EU “hot airing” that some civil servants are actually getting on with Bexiting in the background ?
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:59 pm

Tommy - I wish you were right but there are many who believe passionately about the EU superstate and have not / will not give up the fight because they've invested so much in it. There's also average citizens with similar passion. I was chatting to one yesterday and no matter what facts were put in front of him he argued the opposite. For example he argued for the benefits of close integration because as the world's 5th largest economy we were too small to have a voice on the international stage then said it's better for smaller economies like Australia to be out. Which is it???. I'll spell it out. If you are a big multinational shareholder or banker (part of the 0.0001%) you want as big a GDP as possible because you pay less tax, skim from a bigger pot and become more wealthy. If you are an average citizen you benefit most from bespoke laws / economy that is tailored to your collective strengths and a bigger average is a disadvantage. My fight is for the average man, not the 0.0001%.

As for my points being too late. They are as relevant today as before the referendum.
1. Governance - May wants us to have a 'common rulebook'. This means no bespoke UK laws that will benefit UK citizens specific circumstances.
2. Identity - Directly related to immigration. I for one welcome immigration but it must be fully integrated with the existing constantly evolving national identity, whether from the EU or outside and proportional to national infrastructure.
3. Economy - I welcome a bespoke trade deal with the EU (and other countries) that benefits the strengths of UK citizens. This is not what's on the table or in May's white paper so the debate goes on. If May succeeds we cannot tailor our national economy and the result will be the UK continuing to drag behind all other developed economies. The bankers / lawyers / etc would be quid's in though.

Mig - As average citizens we don't really know what each negotiating position is. The media is used merely as a negotiating tool. I'm guessing May's position is to satisfy the letter of leaving the EU while keeping all the existing civil service links. i.e No structural change. One possibility is that the EU want to accelerate their ultimate aim of completing the EU project and their rhetoric to date is consistent with that aim. They are close. The final steps are a central command system for a collective military, total control of regional economics by the European central bank and absolute jurisdiction of the ECJ, all controlled by technocrats with no national influence. That way they control the rules, money and the big stick i.e. the three pillars of national governance. Without the UK, completing the project is much easier. That UK veto must have been a pain for the technocrats.

I come back to my age old question - Who's is this benefiting?

Eric - Interesting post. I'd not seen that and you may be right.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 1:55 pm

ericbee123 wrote:Does this mean that despite the politicians and the EU “hot airing” that some civil servants are actually getting on with Brexiting in the background ?

Yes, and it's something which has been going on all along.
The problem is that whatever agreements they may reach, until they're effectively signed-off by the politicians they're meaningless, which is the reason why some were saying that Politicians should have been kept out of the negotiation process.
The only good thing now is that with Raab in charge instead of Davies, the agreements are much more likely to be accepted.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:54 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:The only good thing now is that with Raab in charge instead of Davies, the agreements are much more likely to be accepted.


What are you basing that on? I thought that TM stated that she was in charge of the negotiations and that Raab would only deputise for her?

And whose acceptance are you referring to - the EU, HMG, the Conservative party, the Commons or the Lords??? :lol:

It doesn't matter what acceptance he gets anyway because now Gary Lineker has called for a second referendum so thats that.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:58 pm

PMTM says that many things these days that not even her own Party take much notice of her. :biggrin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 3:41 pm

Hope you all watched the press conference today......lots of 'keep on jogging on', which will upset the hard-line ( and possibly not so hard-line ) Leave campaigners & voters.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 4:49 pm

The post by Eric above is highly encouraging. It's what you don't see or hear that's important. I liken being in the EU to being trapped in a thorn bush. Every time you move you get pricked to the point where you tell yourself, it's better not to move and stay trapped forever to avoid a bit of pain. Eric's post is the first two snips of the secateurs.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby toom317 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 6:11 pm

pbeardmore wrote:If we do get a no deal Brexit, will May be forced to resign?


One way or another, she's out on her arse as soon as it's over. Boris, et al, are just waiting till after we've left, so they don't end up with any blame, and then making their play to be leader.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 7:49 pm

Copy of a joint letter sent from the U.K. and EU to the WTO

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... atives.pdf

Copy of the EU proposal to unilaterally split the U.K. tariffs quotas, in case the WTO don’t get agreement in time.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... A312%3AFIN

Source.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... justments/

The tone of the letters and documents kind of imply the U.K. and EU aren’t bickering as much as the U.K. press keep telling us and neither want to see EU and U.K. trade suffer unnecessarily.

It’s also worth pointing out that the EU have load of experience of dealing with WTO and any “red tape” as they send letters and amend schedules and quotas every time a new member joins the EU. ( which has happened a lot in the last decade ).
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 8:22 pm

More solid data Eric. You must either be very keen or have a related job...

Who'd have thought the French would import so much garlic from China? And how much lamb do New Zealand export. Wow.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 7:34 am

Went round to my mum and dad's for a cuppa yesterday and got chatting about Brexit (they both voted out) , if their lack of knowledge and twisted values is in any way representative of the overall electorate , then democracy is a dangerous thing:

" The French have never liked us", "We'lll get our oranges from California", "Don't forget the Battle of the Bulge", "It's all Ted Heath's fault", etc etc
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 7:52 am

pbeardmore wrote:... democracy is a dangerous thing...


To refine your comment... democracy with a low sample count is a dangerous thing...
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