Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Craig on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 2:59 pm

The concept of the UK manufacturing and exporting more is laudable. The problem is our economy is largely post industrial and to restart much manufacturing would require investment. Private companies won't do so because of concerns over trade and government can't/won't for ideological/cost reasons. These are the things we need to "make it work" and no amount of gruff posturing changes this. I'd be happy to get behind HMG's plan if I thought for one minute they actually had one.
User avatar
Craig
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 3:03 pm

They've got a plan.....they're going to give money to farmers, give money to businesses, give money to the NHS, give money to deprived areas & give money to African ( and presumably other ) Countries to bribe them to trade with us.
Of course, they haven't gotten around to telling us which magic money forest they're going to get all this money from.
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 5:08 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:They've got a plan.....they're going to give money to farmers, give money to businesses, give money to the NHS, give money to deprived areas & give money to African ( and presumably other ) Countries to bribe them to trade with us.
Of course, they haven't gotten around to telling us which magic money forest they're going to get all this money from.


It's the money that won't be going to the EU plus a bit more. /sarcasm
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 6:29 pm

But...but....PMTM & her minions have already promised all of that to the NHS...... :lol:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 6:44 pm

Image


:biggrin:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby SEMAE on Wed 29 Aug 2018, 7:56 pm

Hi

I have tried to resist from making any comments on this subject but but you really need to get passed 0 and A level economics before making any calculations as to how much an import of a product will cost to the average consumer or how much an export would cost to a foreigner.

There is no automatic link between the value of the £ and the cost of imports and exports. Any change in the price of a product requires an active decision to pass on any savings or price increases

Typical examples are where petrol companies have been accused of not passing on savings in the price of petrol when the value of he £ has gone up.

Another more recent example is where the value of the stock market has increased due to the devaluing £. This is because many companies have decided to take the profits rather than pass on any savings. The only people making money are the shareholders of the companies and those who trade on the stock exchange. The average consumer will get nothing. if you think pensioners will do well out of pension funds, don't forget most people are not pensioners so you will have a long to wait and will not notice anything either.

Also, before the single market, some people where going to other countries to purchase a right hand drive car because in the UK people were being ripped of by the relatively high price of cars. This was cheaper despite the attempts of manufactures to hinder this. This was finally brought to an end by the single European Market and the competition rules that went with it.

I doubt very much that reductions in prices in France or anywhere else had passed on any savings. The companies have decided to take the profits. If such a company was already competitive why would they want to pass on any savings?

What about imports? Even if you think that you could get cheaper items from from elsewhere, the average consumer is not going to notice anything. A foreign company will look at the general price level of product in the uk priced at say £100.00, then the foreign company may price their product at about £98.00 even though they could price it at £70.00 and still make a similar margin than the UK product priced at £100.00. This is before any potential tariff is taken in to account which will only means the average consumer pays more with the profits going abroad and a few people making lots of money.

I have no doubt that the UK will be poorer outside the EU. However, I do happen to think there will be a deal particularly as Mrs May has compromised on such a scale that the only difference between what she is proposing and what the EU will agree on is how you spell it. Either that or what I think will be the next likely outcome is that we will stay in.

This may still mean still making contributions of a sort even after the divorce bill is paid perhaps by increasing direct contributions to pan European projects in science and technology, perhaps increasing UK resources to Interpol and some other agencies. Maybe increase defence spending then base more of our assets in Eastern Europe will help - that is if you really want to 'play' the security card

That way you can claim were making no more direct contributions to the EU even if you start making contributions in another way .

Assuming there will be a deal, the value of the £ should go up again, better growth will return to he UK economy which should good enough to have more money for the NHS and no return to rip off Britain.

Martin Eames.
SEMAE

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 8:55 am

'Need to get passed' ???
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
User avatar
AlexC

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 9:59 am

Panasonic pulling their European HQ out of the U.K. directly due to Brexit...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288
User avatar
boff180
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:04 am

boff180 wrote:Panasonic pulling their European HQ out of the U.K. directly due to Brexit...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288


'Up to 20 people could be affected out of a staff of 30'
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
User avatar
AlexC

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:14 am

One of the reasons I voted for Brexit was the hope that we would stop relying on foreign investment and that the ground would become more fertile for home grown industry.

Clearly i'll be berated for this comparison - but it's worth noting how local Russian industry is thriving since the imposition of sanctions. If the EU want to sanction us by refusing to make a free trade deal, I truly believe local manufacturers will benefit.

Having said all of this, the economic argument is a total red herring. Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:49 am

MiG_Eater wrote: Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!


I know you say that control won't be allowed to happen, but what controls exactly do Brexiteers expect to get?.
Trade deals?, we will still be subject to the WTO and then hope other countries will trade will us and maybe strike a deal, it's no guarantee.
Cut immigration?, can you honestly see that happening, we need an influx of seasonal workers, some might stay others will return home, the only change will be it won't be Europeans but African's, what a way to solve the Calais problem.
More money for the NHS?, that will come from a tax hike, it's already been mentioned.
The daughter was having a good moan about a friend having to return to Hong Kong due to there visa running out and not being renewed. It gave me a good opportunity to remind her that, that is what she voted for when voting leave. She wouldn't have it that voting leave meant people being denied visa's.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:18 am

MiG_Eater wrote: Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!


No it isn't.

It is about making good on the result of the referendum question "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

No-where anywhere in that question is the mechanism of, or the method by, or the resultant relationship, or the resultant controls mentioned. All of that is up for negotiation. The only thing the referendum result authorised is that our membership of the EU will end.

Those that claim that pushing that it did anything else (eg: JRM, Farage, Johnson) are manipulating the situation to their own agenda through their own interpretation.
User avatar
boff180
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:24 am

Brevet Cable wrote:You put a lot of faith into the possibility that the UK import duty will remain at 10%.....and unless I've missed it, you also overlook the fact that there's VAT to be added on to that.

The majority of so-called manufacturing in the UK isn't, it's essentially assembling products using components imported from outside the UK -- no different to the rest of the EU, but then nobody else is leaving at the moment.

As for UK standards, whilst the claim could be made that they're 'higher', it's also the case that the UK regulators went overboard with their interpretation of the EU requirements, particularly with regards needless paperwork & 'box-ticking', which has had a negative impact with regards costs & viability for many businesses.


I’m assuming 10% as the WTO import duty on cars is 10% and the original discussion was how the import duty will effect Nissan.

Edit- And the simplistic maths were needed as I was typing on a phone keyboard on a bus ! Also the original maths, simplistic or not, were originally to show how a fall back to WTO would hurt BMW imports a lot more than Nissan exports , because the 10% WTO import duty on exported cars can be negated by the fall in the pound since 2016.
Last edited by ericbee123 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
User avatar
ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:31 am

boff180 wrote:Panasonic pulling their European HQ out of the U.K. directly due to Brexit...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288


Company moves their EU headquarters to a country in the EU from a country leaving the EU shocker !!

Of the 30 staff, statistically 5 of them didn’t bother voting. 10 of them voted Remain. 10 voted Leave and the other 5 voted Remain or Leave depending on which area of the U.K. they lived in.

It’s their own fault !!! :)

Even the thickest Leave voter can’t have expected companies to leave their EU headquarters in a country not in the EU.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
User avatar
ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:41 am

boff180 wrote:
MiG_Eater wrote: Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!


No it isn't.

It is about making good on the result of the referendum question "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

No-where anywhere in that question is the mechanism of, or the method by, or the resultant relationship, or the resultant controls mentioned. All of that is up for negotiation. The only thing the referendum result authorised is that our membership of the EU will end.

Those that claim that pushing that it did anything else (eg: JRM, Farage, Johnson) are manipulating the situation to their own agenda through their own interpretation.



Yes it is - here's why.

Before being part of the EU the people of Britain governed themselves and had MPs in Westminster representing their views. Over many years this power, that belonged to the people, was gradually given away - without any right - by the MPs in Westminster to the officials in Brussels. These officials cannot be voted out and are largely unaccountable.

Removing the EU from the equation brings power back to the British people who are then fully in control of who is in Westminster.

At the moment, the British people cannot vote out the officials that are responsible for making some of their laws.

Individual issues such as immigration or trade are totally irrelevant - these can be sorted out by the people of the country next time we have a general election (and every time after), but until we leave the EU - we are beholden to them first and Westminster is powerless to wrest back the power that it gave away; the power that was not theirs to give in the first place.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:15 pm

ericbee123 wrote:I’m assuming 10% as the WTO import duty on cars is 10% and the original discussion was how the import duty will effect Nissan.

Unless I'm mistaken, our import duty is already around 10% ( think it's something like 10.5% )
I'm happy to be corrected, but the difference between now & when we've left the EU is that all the other Countries in the WTO will have to agree to whatever rate we set the duty at & they won't want it set at a rate which is disadvantageous to themselves.

Panasonic.....they used to have several large factories within the UK. To my knowledge, they now only have one ( near Cardiff )

MiG_Eater wrote:One of the reasons I voted for Brexit was the hope that we would stop relying on foreign investment and that the ground would become more fertile for home grown industry.

Clearly i'll be berated for this comparison - but it's worth noting how local Russian industry is thriving since the imposition of sanctions. If the EU want to sanction us by refusing to make a free trade deal, I truly believe local manufacturers will benefit.

Having said all of this, the economic argument is a total red herring. Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!

That horse is well and truly out of the open stable door & several hundred miles down the road.
Much of the proper manufacturing industry remaining in the UK is foreign-owned and/or propped-up by foreign investment.
What happens to that ownership & investment once we leave is unknown.
Any potential 'home grown industry' would likely be SMEs ( and probably leaning more towards 'Small' )

Not berating, but there are a number of big differences between Russia & the UK ( not just the size )....unless you want Britain to adopt the same standards as them.
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:15 pm

Interesting point. So what powers have we lost to the EU that we will get back following Brexit?
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:25 pm

Off the top of my head;

We'll be able to make our own immigration law, tax law, adopt our own regulatory standards, we'll be free to make independent trade deals and we will be free of a much larger government which must necessarily reduce bureaucracy.

I say all of this in theory - because it's plain to see, as it was from before the referendum was even announced - that the UK will not be leaving the EU. Maybe we will leave our seat at the table, and perhaps our name won't be on the books anymore, but no British politician of any serious rank would ever dare to do something as brave as to actually attempt to take us out of the union.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:27 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:One of the reasons I voted for Brexit was the hope that we would stop relying on foreign investment and that the ground would become more fertile for home grown industry.

Clearly i'll be berated for this comparison - but it's worth noting how local Russian industry is thriving since the imposition of sanctions. If the EU want to sanction us by refusing to make a free trade deal, I truly believe local manufacturers will benefit.

Having said all of this, the economic argument is a total red herring. Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!

That horse is well and truly out of the open stable door & several hundred miles down the road.
Much of the proper manufacturing industry remaining in the UK is foreign-owned and/or propped-up by foreign investment.
What happens to that ownership & investment once we leave is unknown.
Any potential 'home grown industry' would likely be SMEs ( and probably leaning more towards 'Small' )

Not berating, but there are a number of big differences between Russia & the UK ( not just the size )....unless you want Britain to adopt the same standards as them.


Well maybe i'm naive, or just optimistic. It's a long old road, and I don't think anyone thought that Brexit would be better for the economy in the short term - but in the long term I believe it will be.

With a bit of investment and a lot of will, we can get our manufacturing back.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:38 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:
At the moment, the British people cannot vote out the officials that are responsible for making some of their laws.



Both the European Council and Parliament must approve/sign off the laws the EU makes, the British people vote for all of our officials that represent us on both of these bodies. Any member of these two bodies can suggest and propose amendments to these proposed laws to protect theirs - and the other EU states citizens - from them.

Any claim that we don't have any say over the laws coming from the EU is complete hogwash, particularly the point that we can't vote out those making the decisions - we can vote out those that represent us at any European election and, our European Council member at the General Elections. Every single member of these two bodies is elected by the people they represent.

To complain that not all the members of the bodies vote the same way is the same as complaining that the neighbouring constituencies MP didn't vote the way you wanted them to and/or your own MP voted on a proposed law (an example being say, the fox hunting ban). We were/still are a member of a 28 member group where democracy must rule - to ignore democracy is to throw your toys out the pram because you aren't getting your own way all the time. Which, frankly, is what the British people have done.

The EC - this so called and completely misunderstood by many in the UK "unelected body" - the closest British equivalent is the senior civil service, they can propose and draft laws but do not have any power to make them. Yes, you don't vote on the members of the EC however you don't get to vote on civil servants either.

And in regards to the rest of the EU leadership not being elected or influenced on by those voted by the British to represent them......
  • European Council - Consists of the 28 Heads of State (not Royal) of the member nations - the UK representative being the Prime Minister. Someone elected indirectly by the British people (remember we vote for our MP representative - not our PM).
  • President of the European Council - Elected on by the European Council - on which we have a representative Elected to represent us by the British People.
  • President of the European Commission - Elected in to place by the European Council having regard to how the parties putting forward nominees fared in the European Elections, something the British people vote on.
  • European Parliament - 751 MEP's directly voted for by the citizens of each member state - 73 of which are directly voted for by the British People. That's 9.7% of the house is British elected.... considering we represent 3.6% of the member states....if you don't like the laws they're ratifying that the EC proposes then don't elect them
  • President of the European Parliament - voted on by the 751 MEP's, again the British representatives being directly elected by the British people... the MEP's also elect 14 VP and 5 Quaestors.
User avatar
boff180
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:47 pm

But my point is that ultimately even if our representatives vote in favour of something that helps the UK - they are still outnumbered if it is a generally unpopular bill. It is similar to complaining that our local MP is outnumbered by all the others - except that the UK is a much smaller place and our interests from constituency to constituency are usually more aligned than those of different countries.

I think there's a really good argument for a properly federalised Europe with state wide healthcare, tax, benefits, defence etc. - but i'd much rather we left and had a small, independent country that is responsible for its own laws and political decisions. The half way house that we have at the moment is, in my view, the worst option of the lot.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:54 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
ericbee123 wrote:I’m assuming 10% as the WTO import duty on cars is 10% and the original discussion was how the import duty will effect Nissan.

Unless I'm mistaken, our import duty is already around 10% ( think it's something like 10.5% )
I'm happy to be corrected, but the difference between now & when we've left the EU is that all the other Countries in the WTO will have to agree to whatever rate we set the duty at & they won't want it set at a rate which is disadvantageous to themselves.

Panasonic.....they used to have several large factories within the UK. To my knowledge, they now only have one ( near Cardiff )

MiG_Eater wrote:One of the reasons I voted for Brexit was the hope that we would stop relying on foreign investment and that the ground would become more fertile for home grown industry.

Clearly i'll be berated for this comparison - but it's worth noting how local Russian industry is thriving since the imposition of sanctions. If the EU want to sanction us by refusing to make a free trade deal, I truly believe local manufacturers will benefit.

Having said all of this, the economic argument is a total red herring. Brexit is about the people of Britain having control returned to them.

... not that it will be allowed to happen of course!

That horse is well and truly out of the open stable door & several hundred miles down the road.
Much of the proper manufacturing industry remaining in the UK is foreign-owned and/or propped-up by foreign investment.
What happens to that ownership & investment once we leave is unknown.
Any potential 'home grown industry' would likely be SMEs ( and probably leaning more towards 'Small' )

Not berating, but there are a number of big differences between Russia & the UK ( not just the size )....unless you want Britain to adopt the same standards as them.


You once told me to read the WTO website to understand WTO tariffs. I had already. Suggest you do!

The WTO tariffs for import duty on cars ( for countries you don’t have a trade deal with ) is 10%.

Under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules, UK exports of complete vehicles could be subject to tariffs of up to 10 percent.


This is if we fall back on WTO rates because nobody will accept our suggested values.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
User avatar
ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 2:14 pm

ericbee123 wrote:You once told me to read the WTO website to understand WTO tariffs. I had already. Suggest you do!

The WTO tariffs for import duty on cars ( for countries you don’t have a trade deal with ) is 10%.

Never said it wasn't.
Doesn't mean that it can't be higher, though.
The USA already imposes a 25% tariff on commercial vehicles & are threatening to impose a 20% tariff on cars.
It's difficult to keep up with the tit-for-tat gamesmanship between the USA & Russia when it comes to import tariffs.
A number of the African Countries PMTM's looking to get trade deals with don't have any tariffs imposed on their exports to the EU - will the UK continue that policy, as it could be seen as being unfavourable to UK companies.
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 10:08 am

[quote="Brevet Cable"]
Doesn't mean that it can't be higher, though.
The USA already imposes a 25% tariff on commercial vehicles & are threatening to impose a 20% tariff on cars.
It's difficult to keep up with the tit-for-tat gamesmanship between the USA & Russia when it comes to import tariffs.
[/quote]

The EU put 10% on USA cars. Currently the USA adds 2.5% on EU cars. They want to put 20%. Which will be in breach of WTO rules.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45364150

Donald therefore wants to pull out of the WTO.

How will the USA be able to trade if they are not in the WTO? Because Remainers say that would be a massive problem. Apparently not for the USA ( and not for the U.K.if the truth be told ).

Edit - don’t know why the quoting hasn’t worked !

Edit- and if he puts 20% on EU cars and we do a deal with the USA after Brexit and we agree to both put 10% import duty on cars then Nissan’s Sunderland plant suddenly becomes a very attractive place for Japan to make cars.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
User avatar
ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:19 am

And.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390

In a cynical move to punish the U.K. even if they reverse Brexit and remain in the EU, the EU are planning on scrapping British Summer Time. :)

“That’ll show those arrogant Brits who is boss” said Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. :)
(Probably, in private, under his breath)

Edit - Mrs May has said this won’t derail Brexit and has promised a free clock to every household in Ireland so they can all have a clock set to U.K. Northern Ireland Time and another set to the Reuplic of Ireland EU Standard Time.
Last edited by ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
User avatar
ericbee123

PreviousNext

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vandal and 9 guests