Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Airshowhammer on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 2:23 pm

Its a beautiful Saturday in June, have a day off? :whistle:
Airshowhammer

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Sun 02 Jun 2019, 11:40 am

As per usual there have been predictable responses to this....

Remain supporters - "told you so"
Leave supporters - "project fear" or "Boris will stop it" or "hands off our NHS"

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MarkL on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 5:38 pm

As I watch the D-Day commemorations, I wonder why a key nation in the Europe it helped defend, then rebuild, would want to leave and tear it all apart.

Makes me very sad.




Ok, back to the intelligent comments.


Mark
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Domvickery on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 6:54 pm

MarkL wrote:
Ok, back to the intelligent comments.


:lmao: :lmao:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby vandal on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 7:47 pm

MarkL wrote:Ok, back to the intelligent comments.

Is it just me that thinks Ann Widdecombe looks like Emperor Palpatine in drag?
vandal

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:07 pm

MarkL wrote:As I watch the D-Day commemorations, I wonder why a key nation in the Europe it helped defend, then rebuild, would want to leave and tear it all apart.

Makes me very sad


Mark


It also makes you realize how petty the Brexit argument is.

Edit. to add from both sides, before someone thinks I'm having a go at Brexiteers.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 7:49 am

vandal wrote:
MarkL wrote:Ok, back to the intelligent comments.

Is it just me that thinks Ann Widdecombe looks like Emperor Palpatine in drag?

i think that's an insult to Emperor Palpatine
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rockfordstone

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 8:58 am

rockfordstone wrote:
vandal wrote:
MarkL wrote:Ok, back to the intelligent comments.

Is it just me that thinks Ann Widdecombe looks like Emperor Palpatine in drag?

i think that's an insult to Emperor Palpatine


She's certainly from the dark side of this Farce.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 9:29 am

boff180 wrote:As per usual there have been predictable responses to this....

Remain supporters - "told you so"
Leave supporters - "project fear" or "Boris will stop it" or "hands off our NHS"



The NHS is virtually run by private companies, it is just administrated by the government. It is the worst of both worlds. While I would far prefer a re-nationalisation of the service, adding in a few foreign companies to bid for work may in fact lower over all costs.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 5:07 am

I have to say looking at the candidates for the Tory leadership, if I had any links with Ireland I'd be trying for a passport smartish. It's like picking a football team at school and all the ones who can run, kick a ball or walk without falling over have been chosen already.

We're doomed!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 6:32 am

Rory Stewart seems OK.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Georgeconna on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 7:31 am

Spiny Norman wrote:I have to say looking at the candidates for the Tory leadership, if I had any links with Ireland I'd be trying for a passport smartish. It's like picking a football team at school and all the ones who can run, kick a ball or walk without falling over have been chosen already.

We're doomed!


I sure we can sort that out. Lots of dodgy fella getting passports these days..

I'll be looking at getting my UK one reinstated again for the mainland trips it seems.
Cheers

George

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 8:08 am

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Rory Stewart seems OK.


I am firmly in the Brexit camp, but I agree Rory Stewart does seem like a decent man. I thought a lot of him when he was justice minister and if he ends up being prime minister I think he may do a good job.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 9:09 am

MiG_Eater wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Rory Stewart seems OK.


I am firmly in the Brexit camp, but I agree Rory Stewart does seem like a decent man. I thought a lot of him when he was justice minister and if he ends up being prime minister I think he may do a good job.

he talks a lot of sense especially with brexit. he seems to be the only one who's realistic about what a new leader can actually achieve given the current parliamentary makeup.
he won't get it though, he's far too sensible. its for boris to lose IMO because that's who the paid up members want. he's got to seriously "Well, there's no need for that" up to lose it this time. to be fair that's probably why he isn't doing speeches.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 10:36 am

Rory Stewart’s life story makes for interesting reading :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Stewart

Some highlights:

He was brought up in Malaysia and Scotland and was educated at the Dragon School in Oxford and Eton College. During his gap year in 1991, he was commissioned ("short service limited commission") in the Black Watch for five months as second lieutenant (on probation).

While a student at Oxford, Stewart was a private tutor to Prince William and Prince Harry during the summer

As a teenager, he was a member of the Labour Party

After graduating, Stewart joined the Foreign Office. He served in the British Embassy in Indonesia from 1997 to 1999, working on issues related to East Timor independence, and was appointed at the age of 26 as the British Representative to Montenegro in the wake of the Kosovo campaign.

After the coalition invasion of Iraq, he became the Coalition Provisional Authority Deputy Governorate Co-Ordinator in Maysan and Deputy Governorate Co-ordinator/Senior Advisor in Dhi Qar in 2003, both of which are provinces in southern Iraq. He was posted initially to the KOSB Battlegroup then to the Light Infantry.
His responsibilities included holding elections, resolving tribal disputes, and implementing development projects.He faced growing unrest and an incipient civil war from his base in a Civil-Military Co-operation (CIMIC) compound in Al Amarah, and in May 2004 was in command of his compound in Nasiriyah when it was besieged by Sadrist militia.
He was awarded an OBE for his services during this period.

In late 2005 he joined the Turquoise Mountain Foundation, a human development NGO established by Charles, Prince of Wales and Hamid Karzai, in Afghanistan. For this role he relocated to Kabul for the next three years, working to restore historic buildings in the old city of Kabul, managing its finances, installing water supply, electricity, and establishing a clinic, a school and an institute for traditional crafts.

Stewart has written and presented three BBC documentaries:

In 2012 it was reported by The Daily Telegraph that Brad Pitt had in 2008 bought the rights to make a film about Stewart, particularly his time in Afghanistan, with Orlando Bloom expected to play the leading role.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Reds Rolling on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 2:05 pm

boff180 wrote:As per usual there have been predictable responses to this....

Remain supporters - "told you so"
Leave supporters - "project fear" or "Boris will stop it" or "hands off our NHS"


I'm certain the guy on the right used to be a scientist in Half Life! :shock:
Reds Rolling

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 3:41 pm

Reds Rolling wrote:
boff180 wrote:As per usual there have been predictable responses to this....

Remain supporters - "told you so"
Leave supporters - "project fear" or "Boris will stop it" or "hands off our NHS"


I'm certain the guy on the right used to be a scientist in Half Life! :shock:


I think you might be right, I can still remember his annoying voice in the game :lol: .
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 7:44 am

Has anyone noticed that none of the would-be Brexit champions go on about immigration anymore? When was the last time you saw a fear-mongering headline about immigrants in the Express or the Mail?

That wave has broken upon the rocks of reality and they’re riding the one behind it. The narrative has changed to the remainer elites and nasty judges and snowflake comedians and biased media.

There never was any “legitimate concerns” about immigration. No one was able to articulate them without them hitting reality like a brick wall. It was just the fear tactic. The real project fear. Spivs like Farage and Johnson have mined that resource for all its worth.

And it’s amazing. Now that they’ve stopped going on about it, the newspapers have. And the radio hosts have. And suddenly everyone who used to criticise Johnny Foreigner coming over here and taking our jeerbs has now switched to ranting about the corrupt Westminster bubble and anti-democratic elites.

Charlatans like Farage are lying to you. To us all. Damn him to hell. How a politician who refuses to tell people what he plans to do with he power he is asking you to grant him is cheered on like a saviour is spectacular in its depressiveness. May he be cursed to break down on the M5 on a rainy day.

We find ourselves in the position of division and entrenchment we are in because we deserve this. We lament this current crap crop of politicians, but we do not deserve better if we’re happy to cheer on the populists, the liars, the criminals, and the cheats, and refuse to hold them to account for their past lies, mistakes, illegality, and just downright stupidity.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 8:23 am

I think the idea that the referendum was about immigration is something that was pretty much invented by the media.

Immigration is one aspect of law we can't control within Europe - but the main point that I hear expressed by leavers is that we should be the ones in control of our own laws on things such as immigration.

It's a red herring, and the reason most leavers don't spend much time talking about immigration is because it is not a major issue for us.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 8:33 am

Tommy wrote:Has anyone noticed that none of the would-be Brexit champions go on about immigration anymore? When was the last time you saw a fear-mongering headline about immigrants in the Express or the Mail?

That wave has broken upon the rocks of reality and they’re riding the one behind it. The narrative has changed to the remainer elites and nasty judges and snowflake comedians and biased media.

There never was any “legitimate concerns” about immigration. No one was able to articulate them without them hitting reality like a brick wall. It was just the fear tactic. The real project fear. Spivs like Farage and Johnson have mined that resource for all its worth.

And it’s amazing. Now that they’ve stopped going on about it, the newspapers have. And the radio hosts have. And suddenly everyone who used to criticise Johnny Foreigner coming over here and taking our jeerbs has now switched to ranting about the corrupt Westminster bubble and anti-democratic elites.

Charlatans like Farage are lying to you. To us all. Damn him to hell. How a politician who refuses to tell people what he plans to do with he power he is asking you to grant him is cheered on like a saviour is spectacular in its depressiveness. May he be cursed to break down on the M5 on a rainy day.

We find ourselves in the position of division and entrenchment we are in because we deserve this. We lament this current crap crop of politicians, but we do not deserve better if we’re happy to cheer on the populists, the liars, the criminals, and the cheats, and refuse to hold them to account for their past lies, mistakes, illegality, and just downright stupidity.

not immigration as such, but the usual suspects were having a go at foreigners for block voting in the Peterborough by-election
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 9:36 am

Well that's one way to get the thread going again. It's not unsual for Tommy to post something of this type.

Just because it isn't in the media doesn't mean its gone away. It just means that the media don't want that to be the message of the moment. I know of countless examples where family members, friends and colleagues are affected by the new arrivals, either in the job market, medical, busier roads, cost of housing, etc, in fact all walks of life. Question is, does it matter? To me, no. I have private medical and dental; I don't have to compete in the job market, big house, etc. To others yes, it is negatively affecting their life. In short, it is still affecting and influencing the decisions people make in their daily life and at the ballot box.

Then there's the cohesion in society aspect of a migrant population. The ideological battle being played out is 'nomad vs settler'. The nomad will move to an area, consume the resource then move on. The settler will move and invest time and effort in a location, perhaps through multiple generations. To the liberal Davos group, the nomadic model is best. It allows them to maximise their skim from society by having access to a cheap workforce and huge market with no geographical or regulatory boundaries. To the majority that just want a simple happy life with no desire to move, the settler model is preferable where there is some constraint on change that protects the effort they have made. Geographical boundaries are arbitrary however, depending on your ideology above, are necessary if you are a settler that doesn't want your efforts to be consumed.

Then we come to identity. There is no example where a migrant society is a cohesive society without a common culture. We have been 'told' that we are a multi-cultural society but look at the reality. People want to socialise with people like themselves so you end up with communities that don't integrate. Even in the workplace which is a subset of society you have a corporate culture. Sometime the two clash. For example, I employed a Nigerian 1st gen immigrant recently. He interviewed well, he was a thoroughly nice bloke, honest, had skills but, he's had to find new opportunities because his African culture couldn't adapt to our corporate culture.

If you're young and only know the political / media message of the last two decades or, you're a 1st or second gen immigrant that wants a bit of Elisium, I can understand that you're coming from a different perspective. In my opinion however, society operates best with a common culture. The best way of achieving that is controlled immigration (you have to have some or you become a stale society) of those that want to integrate with those that have invested so much over multiple generations. Bottom line is, our society along with all we enjoy has come about because of our common culture. Why would you go somewhere and take advantage of that and not be willing to become a part of that collective so you can contribute for all in society and not just yourself?

As for how many the UK can handle; obviously physically many more but is that the place we want to live, even if we all have a common culture? There is more to life than work and money.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 11:14 am

What you seem to forget Verreli is we have always had control of immigration outside of the EU, but it has never been enforced, your Nigerian example has nothing to do with the EU and Brexit. Immigration from outside the EU is still as high as it ever was, and while immigration from the EU is down, if we take your 'common culture' argument you could say that most Europeans share this 'common culture' with us.

So in effect we've now lessened the numbers entering this country sharing our 'common culture', bravo.....
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 11:50 am

I still maintain that immigration was not as big a reason for the leave vote as many would like to think - but the idea that EU shares a 'common culture' is absurd to me.

I know plenty of people from across the EU and the cultural differences are vast. One of the reasons I dislike the EU is the fact that if it is to work long term, individual cultures will need to be homogenised into one far less interesting culture.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 12:39 pm

That's exactly right Mig. From the Brexit voters I've spoken to, the consensus is they want the UK to be an independent nation state that trades with the world; allows immigration but in a controlled and integrated manor from the global community and re-establishes the pride in being British through common language, values and culture.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Domvickery on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 12:54 pm

verreli wrote:That's exactly right Mig. From the Brexit voters I've spoken to, the consensus is they want the UK to be an independent nation state that trades with the world; allows immigration but in a controlled and integrated manor from the global community and re-establishes the pride in being British through common language, values and culture.


Ignoring Jalfrezis post then?
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