Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Chat about anything not specifically aviation related
Post Reply
User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4315
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

Happy to reply to Tommy's point:

It's not really surprising that the agenda has changed because we have moved on. Immigration was a discussion point before the vote and rightly so. We had the vote and the result is now history.

The Westminster bubble/elite debate did not/could not exist before the vote. It exists now as there is a mood within a great part of the UK that Westminster has not respected the vote and the wishes of the majority. By definition, this debate could not have existed before the vote. There is only so much room for various topics within the national debate.

IF we were to have a second vote, imigration would be back, front and centre, as a debating point.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

Face it guys, we live in a globalised economy now, you're never going to get the 'good old days' back.

We need immigration to pay for our ageing population - we have a harsh choice coming - increase immigration, increase retirement age, or increase taxation, none of which will sit happily with the electorate.

verreli
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun 12 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm
Location: Lake District

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by verreli »

I thought Mig had covered the point. However, to expand; immigration from outside the EU was a choice made by our politicians. I'm sure they were looking at EU immigration and topping that up with immigration from elsewhere to achieve a specific rate / aim. I don't think the lack of enforcement comment was correct, it's just that the politicians wanted bigger numbers. There could be many reasons for their choice but, when the electorate has had enough or if it's of sufficient concern, we should have the ability to switch it on and off at our whim. The EU doesn't allow us to do that as we're just one state in a collective group otherwise known as a superstate or united state. Personally I think our politicians (not the EU) got the rate of change wrong but I only have one very small voice every 5 years. When there are millions of other small voices we can make things happen but only if you have ultimate control.

While I used the Nigerian example there are many examples where significantly different people can work alongside each other within a corporate culture. I work alongside French, Germans, Swiss, Poles, Lithuanians, South Africans, Australians, etc. There's even an Iranian (mentioned due to the possibility we may be at war with them soon). It's easier to integrate within the work environment. English is mandated because communication is important, there is a dress code because they represent the company to our customers, people conform to similar ways of working through instruction. If their work ethic doesn't fit, we get rid of them. Outside of work, there is more freedom to be diverse but the principals are the same. If you stand out from the group by choosing to speak a different language, wearing significantly different cloths, following different customs, the chances are, you'll be annexed.

Also, linked to my first paragraph. You have to be careful with a democracy. If you pi$$ off enough small voices you may get the opposite of what you want. With that in mind, it looks like Boris will be our next PM. How many remainers wanted that? This is a direct consequence of their actions. I find this particularly amusing.

verreli
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun 12 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm
Location: Lake District

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by verreli »

jalfrezi wrote:Face it guys, we live in a globalised economy now, you're never going to get the 'good old days' back.

We need immigration to pay for our ageing population - we have a harsh choice coming - increase immigration, increase retirement age, or increase taxation, none of which will sit happily with the electorate.


First paragraph: True, but that's only trade. As people keep saying, it's about far more than just trade / work / money.

Second paragraph: False - What you are proposing is a ponzi scheme and doesn't take into account the changing nature of work / technology.
Last edited by verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 2 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!

verreli
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun 12 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm
Location: Lake District

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by verreli »

jalfrezi wrote:We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 4 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!


So you have c.20 years of work remaining. My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

verreli wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 2 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!


So you have c.20 years of work remaining. My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.


I'm fortunate that I've had local gov/private pensions since my 20s, and I'm a homeowner - I'm also fully aware that the state pension's days are numbered.

MiG_Eater
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sat 18 Nov 2017, 4:58 pm

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by MiG_Eater »

verreli wrote:
jalfrezi wrote: My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.


And that is another key part of the EU argument. Authoritarian vs Libertarian.

I for one am naturally in favour of a smaller and less interfering government, which is yet another reason I voted to leave.

Elliott Marsh
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri 19 Aug 2016, 11:02 am

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Elliott Marsh »

Immigration is one aspect of law we can't control within Europe


As Jalfrezi says, yes, we can. Other EEA countries do. The UK chooses not to enforce the EEA immigration regulations as stringently as others.

we should be the ones in control of our own laws on things such as immigration.


We are, but the factual position doesn't meet the tabloid narrative.

verreli wrote:To expand; immigration from outside the EU was a choice made by our politicians. I'm sure they were looking at EU immigration and topping that up with immigration from elsewhere to achieve a specific rate / aim.


I mean, that literally isn't how UK immigration works. In fact, successive Governments have introduced increasingly draconian and restrictive immigration laws for non-EEA nationals that have, in some cases, demonstrably damaged specific sectors and industries. In my experience, there's very little thought given to actually serving UK businesses through these immigration controls - income is used as a threshold, rather than any actual business need.

User avatar
HuwJHopkins
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 1:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by HuwJHopkins »

verreli wrote:You have to be careful with a democracy. If you pi$$ off enough small voices you may get the opposite of what you want. With that in mind, it looks like Boris will be our next PM. How many remainers wanted that? This is a direct consequence of their actions. I find this particularly amusing.


What I find particularly amusing is Brexiteers championing and lauding a process whereby 160,000 conservatives will be choosing the next PM for a population of 65 million. Yet they are completely oblivious to the irony, which is really quite sad.

Taking back contr...oh :roll:

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 5495
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by iainpeden »

Tommy wrote:
verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?

Probably making use of that great British attribute, black humour, which is the only way those of us interested in the current debacle are staying sane.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7326
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

iainpeden wrote:
Tommy wrote:
verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?

Probably making use of that great British attribute, black humour, which is the only way those of us interested in the current debacle are staying sane.


Wibble...
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 5495
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

Call me a broken record, but I still try to seek logic in decisions.

Look at the state of this:

[tweet]http://twitter.com/yougov/status/1140885366360203264[/tweet]

So if nearly 60% of Tories would rather Brexit even at the cost of Northern Ireland leaving the U.K., why did they not vote through May’s deal? Why did they have kittens about the Irish backstop? We could have left by now if it wasn’t for them voting against their leader’s own deal.

Faragism has spread amongst Tories like a bloody yeast infection.

starbuck
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue 28 Mar 2017, 9:35 pm

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

You’re confusing Tory members with Tory MP’s which as the last few years have shown us, they appear to be two quite disparate groups at the moment

User avatar
rockfordstone
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by rockfordstone »

Tommy wrote:Call me a broken record, but I still try to seek logic in decisions.

Look at the state of this:

[tweet]http://twitter.com/yougov/status/1140885366360203264[/tweet]

So if nearly 60% of Tories would rather Brexit even at the cost of Northern Ireland leaving the U.K., why did they not vote through May’s deal? Why did they have kittens about the Irish backstop? We could have left by now if it wasn’t for them voting against their leader’s own deal.

Faragism has spread amongst Tories like a bloody yeast infection.


i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

rockfordstone wrote:
i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.


And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1139524709756874752[/tweet]

Apologies if you can't see the tweet.

User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2175
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

User avatar
Paul_Reflex
Posts: 604
Joined: Sat 31 Dec 2011, 10:31 am

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paul_Reflex »

ericbee123 wrote:https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/


And the don’t just wear mustard cords either, sometimes the go for burgundy or an odd salmon pink colour.

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

ericbee123 wrote:https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/


The Bow Group (a Conservative think tank) have pretty much debunked that figure, and it's estimated to be somewhere between 65 and 72.

https://www.bowgroup.org/policy/statement-average-age-and-analysis-conservative-party-membership-2019

adam2628
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu 30 May 2019, 7:06 am

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by adam2628 »

jalfrezi wrote:
rockfordstone wrote:
i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.


And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1139524709756874752[/tweet]

Apologies if you can't see the tweet.

I can actually feel my blood boiling watching that short clip :mad:

User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2175
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

Don’t get too upset , you will have a chance to vote for your local MP soon.

Unfortunately, you will never get a vote on who the Prime Minister is going to be *.

EDIT — afterthought disclaimer - *unless your local MP is the leader of one of the parties
Last edited by ericbee123 on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

User avatar
psquiddy
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:33 am
Contact:

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by psquiddy »

And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".


"Most are already retired, own their own homes and have great pensions" - all of which was a result of the "pre European" economy.

The economy of being part of Europe has created the conditions where the prospect of owning your own home and having a great pension are not achievable for the majority of working age and young people.
Over 300 free things to do in London
http://www.toplondondaysout.co.uk

User avatar
jalfrezi
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat 16 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

psquiddy wrote:
And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".


"Most are already retired, own their own homes and have great pensions" - all of which was a result of the "pre European" economy.

The economy of being part of Europe has created the conditions where the prospect of owning your own home and having a great pension are not achievable for the majority of working age and young people.


Not quite sure how Europe had anything to do with a lack of housebuilding since the 1980s?

Prior to this we were building over 300k homes per year - half of these by local government - then along came Right to Buy with its massive discounts for long term tenants and the refusal by successive governments to let local governments reinvest in new social housing. This had the end effect of halving the new housing figures almost overnight, and ever since (barring the odd crash here and there) we've had rising house prices as demand outstrips supply. True you could blame Europe for increased immigration, but that's only a small part of the problem, we're simply not building enough houses anymore.

Don't get me started on Buy to Let and the unfairness and profiteering that has caused.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7326
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

ericbee123 wrote:Don’t get too upset , you will have a chance to vote for your local MP soon.

Unfortunately, you will never get a vote on who the Prime Minister is going to be *.

EDIT — afterthought disclaimer - *unless your local MP is the leader of one of the parties


Unless you're a Tory party member, in which case you will, by default, be having a vote on exactly that.

Of a poor pair,I can only hope that Hunt somehow pulls off a political miracle and that we then have a quick GE in which the electorate finally see sense.
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?

Post Reply