Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 1:32 pm

Happy to reply to Tommy's point:

It's not really surprising that the agenda has changed because we have moved on. Immigration was a discussion point before the vote and rightly so. We had the vote and the result is now history.

The Westminster bubble/elite debate did not/could not exist before the vote. It exists now as there is a mood within a great part of the UK that Westminster has not respected the vote and the wishes of the majority. By definition, this debate could not have existed before the vote. There is only so much room for various topics within the national debate.

IF we were to have a second vote, imigration would be back, front and centre, as a debating point.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 1:32 pm

Face it guys, we live in a globalised economy now, you're never going to get the 'good old days' back.

We need immigration to pay for our ageing population - we have a harsh choice coming - increase immigration, increase retirement age, or increase taxation, none of which will sit happily with the electorate.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:08 pm

I thought Mig had covered the point. However, to expand; immigration from outside the EU was a choice made by our politicians. I'm sure they were looking at EU immigration and topping that up with immigration from elsewhere to achieve a specific rate / aim. I don't think the lack of enforcement comment was correct, it's just that the politicians wanted bigger numbers. There could be many reasons for their choice but, when the electorate has had enough or if it's of sufficient concern, we should have the ability to switch it on and off at our whim. The EU doesn't allow us to do that as we're just one state in a collective group otherwise known as a superstate or united state. Personally I think our politicians (not the EU) got the rate of change wrong but I only have one very small voice every 5 years. When there are millions of other small voices we can make things happen but only if you have ultimate control.

While I used the Nigerian example there are many examples where significantly different people can work alongside each other within a corporate culture. I work alongside French, Germans, Swiss, Poles, Lithuanians, South Africans, Australians, etc. There's even an Iranian (mentioned due to the possibility we may be at war with them soon). It's easier to integrate within the work environment. English is mandated because communication is important, there is a dress code because they represent the company to our customers, people conform to similar ways of working through instruction. If their work ethic doesn't fit, we get rid of them. Outside of work, there is more freedom to be diverse but the principals are the same. If you stand out from the group by choosing to speak a different language, wearing significantly different cloths, following different customs, the chances are, you'll be annexed.

Also, linked to my first paragraph. You have to be careful with a democracy. If you pi$$ off enough small voices you may get the opposite of what you want. With that in mind, it looks like Boris will be our next PM. How many remainers wanted that? This is a direct consequence of their actions. I find this particularly amusing.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:13 pm

jalfrezi wrote:Face it guys, we live in a globalised economy now, you're never going to get the 'good old days' back.

We need immigration to pay for our ageing population - we have a harsh choice coming - increase immigration, increase retirement age, or increase taxation, none of which will sit happily with the electorate.


First paragraph: True, but that's only trade. As people keep saying, it's about far more than just trade / work / money.

Second paragraph: False - What you are proposing is a ponzi scheme and doesn't take into account the changing nature of work / technology.
Last edited by verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:16 pm

We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 2 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:23 pm

jalfrezi wrote:We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 4 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!


So you have c.20 years of work remaining. My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:26 pm

verreli wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:We've always had control of immigration from outside the EU, but as I said, we need immigration to reduce the tax burden on the people of working age, my retirement age has already increased by 2 years since I started work in the 90s, I'd prefer if it didn't increase any more!


So you have c.20 years of work remaining. My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.


I'm fortunate that I've had local gov/private pensions since my 20s, and I'm a homeowner - I'm also fully aware that the state pension's days are numbered.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 2:35 pm

verreli wrote:
jalfrezi wrote: My advice: Don't rely on the state. They don't have your best interests at heart. That's not their job.


And that is another key part of the EU argument. Authoritarian vs Libertarian.

I for one am naturally in favour of a smaller and less interfering government, which is yet another reason I voted to leave.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 4:43 pm

Immigration is one aspect of law we can't control within Europe


As Jalfrezi says, yes, we can. Other EEA countries do. The UK chooses not to enforce the EEA immigration regulations as stringently as others.

we should be the ones in control of our own laws on things such as immigration.


We are, but the factual position doesn't meet the tabloid narrative.

verreli wrote:To expand; immigration from outside the EU was a choice made by our politicians. I'm sure they were looking at EU immigration and topping that up with immigration from elsewhere to achieve a specific rate / aim.


I mean, that literally isn't how UK immigration works. In fact, successive Governments have introduced increasingly draconian and restrictive immigration laws for non-EEA nationals that have, in some cases, demonstrably damaged specific sectors and industries. In my experience, there's very little thought given to actually serving UK businesses through these immigration controls - income is used as a threshold, rather than any actual business need.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby HuwJHopkins on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 11:55 am

verreli wrote:You have to be careful with a democracy. If you pi$$ off enough small voices you may get the opposite of what you want. With that in mind, it looks like Boris will be our next PM. How many remainers wanted that? This is a direct consequence of their actions. I find this particularly amusing.


What I find particularly amusing is Brexiteers championing and lauding a process whereby 160,000 conservatives will be choosing the next PM for a population of 65 million. Yet they are completely oblivious to the irony, which is really quite sad.

Taking back contr...oh :roll:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 1:59 pm

verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:37 pm

Tommy wrote:
verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?

Probably making use of that great British attribute, black humour, which is the only way those of us interested in the current debacle are staying sane.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:59 pm

iainpeden wrote:
Tommy wrote:
verreli wrote: I find this particularly amusing.


...why?

Probably making use of that great British attribute, black humour, which is the only way those of us interested in the current debacle are staying sane.


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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 7:36 am

Call me a broken record, but I still try to seek logic in decisions.

Look at the state of this:



So if nearly 60% of Tories would rather Brexit even at the cost of Northern Ireland leaving the U.K., why did they not vote through May’s deal? Why did they have kittens about the Irish backstop? We could have left by now if it wasn’t for them voting against their leader’s own deal.

Faragism has spread amongst Tories like a bloody yeast infection.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:20 am

You’re confusing Tory members with Tory MP’s which as the last few years have shown us, they appear to be two quite disparate groups at the moment
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:22 am

Tommy wrote:Call me a broken record, but I still try to seek logic in decisions.

Look at the state of this:



So if nearly 60% of Tories would rather Brexit even at the cost of Northern Ireland leaving the U.K., why did they not vote through May’s deal? Why did they have kittens about the Irish backstop? We could have left by now if it wasn’t for them voting against their leader’s own deal.

Faragism has spread amongst Tories like a bloody yeast infection.


i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:26 am

rockfordstone wrote:
i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.


And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".



Apologies if you can't see the tweet.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 2:40 pm

Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 3:18 pm

ericbee123 wrote:https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/


And the don’t just wear mustard cords either, sometimes the go for burgundy or an odd salmon pink colour.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 3:19 pm

ericbee123 wrote:https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/


The Bow Group (a Conservative think tank) have pretty much debunked that figure, and it's estimated to be somewhere between 65 and 72.

https://www.bowgroup.org/policy/statement-average-age-and-analysis-conservative-party-membership-2019
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby adam2628 on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 4:02 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
rockfordstone wrote:
i saw these figures yesterday. it's profoundly depressing reading. lets be fair, if this was a survey of tory party members, the vast majority are white men 70+ so they probably take my parents "i don't care i just want to leave, it doesn't matter what happens in 20 years as i'll be dead" view.


And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".



Apologies if you can't see the tweet.

I can actually feel my blood boiling watching that short clip :mad:
adam2628

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 4:09 pm

Don’t get too upset , you will have a chance to vote for your local MP soon.

Unfortunately, you will never get a vote on who the Prime Minister is going to be *.

EDIT — afterthought disclaimer - *unless your local MP is the leader of one of the parties
Last edited by ericbee123 on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby psquiddy on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 4:24 pm

And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".


"Most are already retired, own their own homes and have great pensions" - all of which was a result of the "pre European" economy.

The economy of being part of Europe has created the conditions where the prospect of owning your own home and having a great pension are not achievable for the majority of working age and young people.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jalfrezi on Wed 19 Jun 2019, 5:15 pm

psquiddy wrote:
And there lies the problem, the Tory Party faithful will barely be impacted by a 'No Deal' Brexit as most are already retired, own their homes, and have great pensions. It is people of working age and the young coming through our education system that will feel the full force of a 'No Deal' Brexit, for the Tory Party it's a case of "I'm alright Jack".


"Most are already retired, own their own homes and have great pensions" - all of which was a result of the "pre European" economy.

The economy of being part of Europe has created the conditions where the prospect of owning your own home and having a great pension are not achievable for the majority of working age and young people.


Not quite sure how Europe had anything to do with a lack of housebuilding since the 1980s?

Prior to this we were building over 300k homes per year - half of these by local government - then along came Right to Buy with its massive discounts for long term tenants and the refusal by successive governments to let local governments reinvest in new social housing. This had the end effect of halving the new housing figures almost overnight, and ever since (barring the odd crash here and there) we've had rising house prices as demand outstrips supply. True you could blame Europe for increased immigration, but that's only a small part of the problem, we're simply not building enough houses anymore.

Don't get me started on Buy to Let and the unfairness and profiteering that has caused.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 7:03 pm

ericbee123 wrote:Don’t get too upset , you will have a chance to vote for your local MP soon.

Unfortunately, you will never get a vote on who the Prime Minister is going to be *.

EDIT — afterthought disclaimer - *unless your local MP is the leader of one of the parties


Unless you're a Tory party member, in which case you will, by default, be having a vote on exactly that.

Of a poor pair,I can only hope that Hunt somehow pulls off a political miracle and that we then have a quick GE in which the electorate finally see sense.
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