Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

CJS wrote: in which the electorate finally see sense.


We won’t.

Until Brexit fails and is seen to fail, or succeed and is seen to succeed, we’re doomed to this horrid political entrenchment will for a generation at least.

The lies run too deep. The investment in being “right” is too strong.

No amount of evidence, reason, logic, reality or fact will change Brexiteer or Remainer minds other than total success or failure.

So far, it’s failure. Considerable failure. But not failure enough. The blame on failure lies not with Brexit, but with a “remainer PM”, currently. Once Boris botches it it’ll be “an incompetent PM” etc...

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paul_Reflex »

Tommy wrote:
CJS wrote: in which the electorate finally see sense.


We won’t.

Until Brexit fails and is seen to fail, or succeed and is seen to succeed, we’re doomed to this horrid political entrenchment will for a generation at least.

The lies run too deep. The investment in being “right” is too strong.

No amount of evidence, reason, logic, reality or fact will change Brexiteer or Remainer minds other than total success or failure.

So far, it’s failure. Considerable failure. But not failure enough. The blame on failure lies not with Brexit, but with a “remainer PM”, currently. Once Boris botches it it’ll be “an incompetent PM” etc...


With considerable regret, I agree 100% Tommy. It’s going to be a hell of a few years.

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CJS
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

So you think that a new PM won't = a GE and that even if it does the Tories will get back in again?
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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

But such is the state of the opposition that even if Labour get in, we’d find ourselves in exactly the same position.

A radicalised Party, where the more reasonable voices are silenced and punished, in a frenetic race to hit the bedrock of extremism and tribalism. Like people who have simultaneously jumped off a building trying to hit the pavement ahead of all the others.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

There's more than two parties though

#libdems
#greens
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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

True but there’s also the Brexit Party (and I suppose the shattered husk of UKIP).

This is what I mean; neither side is going away, and neither side will have their minds changed.

Elect the LibDems and Nigel Farage will be on every single Question Time spouting his unchallenged butt-chunderous rhetoric. If the Brexit Party are elected, remainers will never shut up, nor give in.

And because Brexiteers seem to know nothing other than poison and absolutism, and Remainers are little better, we’ll still be having this debate.

It doesn’t matter who is in power anymore. In the same way as truth, logic, facts, experts, and knowledge doesn’t matter any more.

Look at this thread, for instance. It’s the same usernames on either side of the debate (and noted that i’m One of the most prolific). Did anyone really have their minds changed when I actually added flesh to the “we should make our own laws” argument (which, by the way, Brexiteers here have been invited to do since 2016 and have still failed to do so). Did anyone really have their minds changed, or even have a flutter of doubt in the strength of their opinion after my very long, very heavy WTO posts?

Did they bolycs. Fel rhech mewn pot jam.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

Tommy wrote:True but there’s also the Brexit Party (and I suppose the shattered husk of UKIP).

This is what I mean; neither side is going away, and neither side will have their minds changed.

Elect the LibDems and Nigel Farage will be on every single Question Time spouting his unchallenged butt-chunderous rhetoric. If the Brexit Party are elected, remainers will never shut up, nor give in.



I'd take that right now :grin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by rockfordstone »

Tommy wrote:Look at this thread, for instance. It’s the same usernames on either side of the debate (and noted that i’m One of the most prolific). Did anyone really have their minds changed when I actually added flesh to the “we should make our own laws” argument (which, by the way, Brexiteers here have been invited to do since 2016 and have still failed to do so). Did anyone really have their minds changed, or even have a flutter of doubt in the strength of their opinion after my very long, very heavy WTO posts?


no one has had their minds changed, only become more entrenched.

people are now saying they voted to leave because remainers said it would be a disaster. the best example of it is when Andrea Leadsom was interviewed the other week and said that people knew there would be job losses as a result of the brexit vote and still voted for it. vote leave didn't say that, no one in the leave campaign said that.

there was a time when i accepted the result and would have been happy with a sensible deal. however, over the past 3 years its become more and more obvious that we are standing in front of the EU with a gun to our heads saying "if you don't give us a deal we will kill ourselves and it will be bad for you".

as you've said, this has fundamentally broken our political system and our country. this wont go away, if we don't leave farage will keep on, and the tories/labour will be finished. if we do leave farage will bang on about something else (probably the NHS), there will be a strong rejoin campaign and the tories/labour will be finished.

it's a massive cock up. whoever thought the question should have been asked to the people really needs to be buried to his neck in a "Kris Kris Tofferson!" dump.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

rockfordstone wrote:it's a massive cock up. whoever thought the question should have been asked to the people really needs to be buried to his neck in a "Kris Kris Tofferson!" dump.


Absolutely this. One of the worst decisions in our history. David Cameron.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by CJS »

rockfordstone wrote:
as you've said, this has fundamentally broken our political system and our country. this wont go away, if we don't leave farage will keep on, and the tories/labour will be finished. if we do leave farage will bang on about something else (probably the NHS), there will be a strong rejoin campaign and the tories/labour will be finished.


Sounds like a win/win situation to me. :up:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Max Hastings has deemed Boris Johnson "unfit for national office". It's quite a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Spiny Norman wrote:Max Hastings has deemed Boris Johnson "unfit for national office". It's quite a read.


I agree, and that's without having to read the statement by Max Hastings (but I will) it should be obvious to all that he is unfit.
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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

Pathetic tossers:

[tweet]http://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1145980895230341120[/tweet]

It is perfectly possible to strongly dislike the EU, but still conduct yourself with a modicum of grace and sodding maturity.

And imagine those people probably really excited to play at the opening of the European Parliament, rehearsing for ages, to see grown adults turn their backs on them like a grumpy sixth form protest at a school assembly.

I’m ashamed. They’re the type of people who would boo another country’s national anthem at a football match, or share so BS fake news Facebook post about university students not singing God Save The Queen loudly enough.

Bet they won’t turn their backs on their EU salaries, pensions, or expenses.

And before all of the whataboutery, I think the LibDems wearing bollocks to Brexit t-shirts was awfully gaudy, too.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

Couldn’t agree more. And to be fair I don’t think the whatabouttery principle applies here. I like to think there wouldn’t be anyone on these pages that would even try to defend that ridiculous immaturity

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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starbuck wrote:Couldn’t agree more. And to be fair I don’t think the whatabouttery principle applies here. I like to think there wouldn’t be anyone on these pages that would even try to defend that ridiculous immaturity


Ode To Joy! I believe. How very appropriate.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

Not defending the Brexit MEPs but as the camera pans out, you can clearly see other MEPs from other countries and other parties refusing to even stand for the EU anthem. Same protest, different method.

Edit to add-

Included in those MEPs who chose to sit down in protest were the SNP MEPs who are pro-Remain.

The SNP sat down in solidarity with Catalonian representives demanding independence, sparking claims they were disrespecting the EU
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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The problem with the Brexit Party's protest is it's the same as the Nazi Party's protest in the Reichstag in the 1930s. When you're a right wing, anti-immigration party that will draw unwelcome comparisons and open you up to ridicule, it was an astonishing own goal in my opinion.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

I take it that the behaviour by the remain MEP's equally demonstrates ridiculous immaturity, or do the avid remain supporters actually think that is acceptable, I would be surprised if anyone actually does.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1147882/Brexit-news-EU-Liberal-Democrats-European-Union-Parliament-Lib-Dems-Brexit-Party-video

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by jalfrezi »

ExVulcanGC wrote:I take it that the behaviour by the remain MEP's equally demonstrates ridiculous immaturity, or do the avid remain supporters actually think that is acceptable, I would be surprised if anyone actually does.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1147882/Brexit-news-EU-Liberal-Democrats-European-Union-Parliament-Lib-Dems-Brexit-Party-video


I thought it was pretty dumb if I'm honest, but at least they couldn't be compared to the Nazi Party.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Not sure that they are anti-immigration as such, more pro-controlled immigration. I believe that I heard recently that it had been reported that 700,000 people from outside the EU had come to live here last year. Is there any way that an increase in population year after year at that level in that time-scale can be sustainable?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

AlexC wrote:Not sure that they are anti-immigration as such, more pro-controlled immigration. I believe that I heard recently that it had been reported that 700,000 people from outside the EU had come to live here last year. Is there any way that an increase in population year after year at that level in that time-scale can be sustainable?


Here are the figures:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679

625,000 non EU immigrants came in, but 345,000 left. Net gain 261k. Still sounds a lot, but a lot less than '700,000 came to live here'. Just shows how dangerous basing opinions on 'I heard' is. In either case, absolutely nothing whosoever to do with the EU and any migration connected with it.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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ExVulcanGC wrote:I take it that the behaviour by the remain MEP's equally demonstrates ridiculous immaturity


Well;

Tommy wrote:And before all of the whataboutery, I think the LibDems wearing bollocks to Brexit t-shirts was awfully gaudy, too.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by rockfordstone »

what made me chuckle is today's round of scripted "look what we are doing in EU parliament and how expensive it is we should be out" tweets, the brexit bunch were talking about how they were casting votes for the EU leaders.

just a reminder, that's those unelected leaders they were voting for.

they didn't turn up to see his acceptance speech, but they did clock in so they would earn their daily allowance

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

Tommy wrote:
ExVulcanGC wrote:I take it that the behaviour by the remain MEP's equally demonstrates ridiculous immaturity


Well;

Tommy wrote:And before all of the whataboutery, I think the LibDems wearing bollocks to Brexit t-shirts was awfully gaudy, too.


Apologies Tommy, I missed that, though 'awfully gaudy' compared with 'ridiculous immaturity', or 'pathetic tossers' for that matter, does not have the same ring to it :biggrin:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

jalfrezi wrote:The problem with the Brexit Party's protest is it's the same as the Nazi Party's protest in the Reichstag in the 1930s. When you're a right wing, anti-immigration party that will draw unwelcome comparisons and open you up to ridicule, it was an astonishing own goal in my opinion.


Those Nazis at Man City should be shamed too.

Turning your back in a crowd is so racist.

Edit.

Nazis, turn their back on a Jewish speaker -- Nazis .

Image

Brexit Party turn their back on the EU anthem - Nazis.

Image

UN staff turn their back at Wonder Woman being named as Women's Ambassador to the UN -- Nazis.

Image

Man City fans turn their back on an interesting game of football - Nazis.

Image

Nazi band in uniform playing on the street -- Nazis.

Image

Salvation Army band in uniform playing on the street -- Nazis.

Image

if it looks a bit Nazi, it must be Nazi ?
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