Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 6:21 pm

[quote but it's just Project Fear, right?][/quote]
Of course it is......because PMBJ has made it quite clear that the EU has got to give us a new deal.

Funnily enough, the EU would beg to differ on that.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 7:33 pm

No Brevet, you're forgetting already...BoJo had said they must, so it'll all be fine.

I mean look at him, why wouldn't you do what he says after you've had to ignore that bumbling buffoon Teresa May for so long :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Zoom on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 8:07 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:[quote but it's just Project Fear, right?]

Of course it is......because PMBJ has made it quite clear that the EU has got to give us a new deal.

Funnily enough, the EU would beg to differ on that.[/quote]

But of course it will all be OK because of this; no longer relevant according to Gove

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49388402

anyone know where I can stash my upcoming pension lump sum that is not in £s?

meanwhile I hope Macron uses his best English to explain "La falaise c'est en ce chemain" when Bozo goes to France this week, which bit of "you negotiate only through Barnier" does BJ not get?
Zoom

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby vandal on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 7:08 am

Brevet Cable wrote:[quote but it's just Project Fear, right?]

Of course it is......because PMBJ has made it quite clear that the EU has got to give us a new deal.

Funnily enough, the EU would beg to differ on that.[/quote]

That's the bit I don't get.

I know as it's been covered umpteen times that PMBJ says we voted for it so it'll happen October 31 no matter what. We are expected to accept that. We voted for it. Why won't PMBJ then accept the EU's decision there will be no renegotiation? :question:

We keep getting told Out means Out!!

So, by the same standards, no renegotiation should mean no renegotiation, should it not?

Just to add to the chaos -

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/u ... spartanntp
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:13 am

And PMBJ still keeps pushing the 'Backstop' red-herring, as if that's all down to the EU whose removal will instantly make everything hunky-dory and automatically result in a brand new deal full of rainbows & unicorns.
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Varadkar's already told him to do one....Tusk's just said the same.....obviously pig-headed stupidity is now a prerequisite for Conservative PMs.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby lambo17841 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:47 am

Radio 4 did not help this morning talking about food rasherning in shops,project fear again.
People saying there should be another vote.What options,has to be 3,stay in leave no deal or May's deal.Could be a vote too leave again which means we carry on paying money in for another couple of years while the MPs keep on delaying as they do not want to leave or we end up with a General election with a hung Parliament which is even more of a mess.

John
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:51 am

The point is also well made that the backstop is a backstop. It’s the last “if all else fails” mechanism.

Ideally there’s supposed to be one of those “zero downside, only considerable upsides” all bells and whistles jam and biscuits trade deals that Brexiteers keep spaffing themselves over, despite being unable to define what it is.

If Boris and the rest of them are so confident in their trading negotiation prowess, they should be completely confident that the backstop will never need to be used in the first place.

Perhaps this is the hill I will die on, but Brexit is idiocy. I don’t think that people who voted for Brexit are by default idiots. But I do think that anyone who continues to support this Brexit is an idiot.

This mess isn’t what Brexiteers voted for. And if you say that you did, I call you a liar, an idiot, or a knob. Because only someone lying, someone who made no effort to understand what they were voting for, or someone who enjoys all of this *gestures around* shower of turd could say with legitimacy that this is what they wanted when they cast that vote.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 12:52 pm

lambo17841 wrote:project fear again

:wall: :wall: :wall:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:05 pm

lambo17841 wrote:Radio 4 did not help this morning talking about food rasherning in shops,project fear again.
People saying there should be another vote.What options,has to be 3,stay in leave no deal or May's deal.Could be a vote too leave again which means we carry on paying money in for another couple of years while the MPs keep on delaying as they do not want to leave or we end up with a General election with a hung Parliament which is even more of a mess.

John


so say we leave with no deal and all the predictions come true... is it still project fear?

genuine question because that seems to be the stock response from most people
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby lambo17841 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:14 pm

I voted to leave and I was aware what the possible out comes could be !
We are not idiots as remainers seem to think.We were warned before the vote from project fear what could happen but leave still won.I for one did not take any notice of the money leave said we would get for the NHS as it was obvious that would not happen nor some of the statements coming from the remain camp.
If another vote and remain won the leave camp would not accept and the problem will just go on and on.I for one have not got a clue what will happen and I blame Ca meron fot getting us into this mess that has split the country all because he was frightened of UKIP.
Nobody really knows what effect no deal will have but if we stay more and more money will go into the EU pot where if we leave most of that money paid in every year will help the UK.

John
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:28 pm

Don't know that he was frightened of UKIP so much, but I'm sure that he saw them a a pain in the neck, and that he reckoned that if he held the referendum he would win it, and that would be an end to them. As we all know however, it was the end of him.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 2:33 pm

lambo17841 wrote:I for one have not got a clue what will happen...

Nobody really knows what effect no deal will have...

But we do know. You just won't listen to it because you dismiss everything you don't want to hear as "project fear". You've heard it from government, industry, medical professionals, scientists, trade negotiators, haulage associations, ports, customs agents and countless others. The information is there should you be willing to read/listen to it, and believe the people that are telling you.

If you have a health problem, do you ask your GP for his expert opinion or an MP for a throwaway soundbite?

if we stay more and more money will go into the EU pot where if we leave most of that money paid in every year will help the UK

How do you know we will pay more? We already have the best deal of any of the EU countries - we don't have the Euro (although we might as well, as the value of the GPB has fallen so low in the last three years as to nearly be on par with the Euro), we aren't in shengen, we have a veto and we get a massive annual rebate. The majority of what we pay in covers our contributions for what we use - shared programmes and infrastructure, the wages and pensions of our MEPs etc. Any money "saved" from not contributing to these institutions will have to be spent on establishing and staffing our own replacements - is it really going to be cheaper to start from scratch? When our volume of trade decreases as our customers turn to people who can sell them the goods without the tariffs and delays (nobody else in the world is losing their tree trade arrangements), the money we have goes down further. If companies pull out and make people redundant, that's less money going in and more money going out. Where is the benefit?

If you leave, and tear up all your trade deals with it, the UK will have less money anyway. We won't be the fifth biggest economy for very long after we walk away with nothing, and if you think other countries will be beating a path to our door, ask yourself why? If you were in business and your biggest competitor made himself less attractive to the marketplace overnight, would you take the opportunity to trample over him, nick his business and build up your own at his expense or would you offer him a helping hand to continue competing against you? A large economy throwing itself back by half a century or more is a god-given opportunity for other countries (that aren't hell-bent on self destruction) to fill the void.

Likewise, what leverage do you think we're going to have in any future trade talks when we've shot ourselves in the foot, sacrificed all our existing trade deals and are the only nation on earth trading solely on WTO terms? If that is a desirable position to be in, why is nobody else on the planet doing it? Even "third-world" countries will be in a more advanced trading position than us. Once you sit around a table to begin talks, everyone else in the world will know that we're in a position of desperation to secure anything.

On the most basic level, the same people in government that have been charged with getting us out of Europe will be the ones holding the keys to the future of this country. If they can't get us out in a sensible manner, what on earth makes you think they're capable of leading this country to greatness afterwards? I wouldn't trust any of them to run a bath, personally.

I do sincerely hope that if food rasherning (sic) is required, the leave voters that brought it upon the rest of us are at the back of the queue.

We are not idiots as remainers seem to think

Without googling it, can you tell me what the four freedoms of the single market are?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Pat Murphy on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 2:47 pm

The horror of Brexit contained in Yellowhammer, yet it's still just Project Fear to those who are entrenched in the leave point of view. The trouble with all of this is we won't "Know" until it's too late. If it is a total disaster for the country, there will be no way back. No re-entry with our current deal, it will probably mean The Euro instead of the pound, no rebate, and increased contributions with less veto over policy. All this to "Get back control" which incidentally, we haven't lost and oh the huge cost....which comes to about 40 pence per person per day...You couldn't make this up.

David Cameron was a political chancer who flipped in 2010, won, flippedin 2015, won again, then bet the farm on a referendum to keep the loonies in UKIP and The ERG quiet.....and lost the lot :clown:
What did he do? Hummed Hey Ho and Flipped off. I hate what he's done to my country. I feel like we've been hijacked. :dizzy:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 3:05 pm

Because yelling "Project Fear!" is their go-to reply when they can't produce a valid counter-argument or are blustering because they know the point they're trying to argue against is actually true, much like their repeated regurgitation of "Leave means Leave!"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Elliott Marsh on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 3:26 pm

I voted to leave and I was aware what the possible out comes could be !

Nobody really knows what effect no deal will have

I for one have not got a clue what will happen...


So you weren't aware what the possible outcomes could be then.

Leave voters aren't idiots. Dismissing every rational, informed warning from professionals (I refer to Dan's fairly comprehensive list) as "project fear" does make someone an idiot.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Berf on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 3:28 pm

The government has decided this week that from 1 September, UK officials and ministers will now only attend EU meetings where the UK has a significant national interest in the outcome of discussions, such as on security.

This decision reflects the fact that the UK’s exit from the EU on 31 October is now very close and many of the discussions in EU meetings will be about the future of the Union after the UK has left.
Brexit minister

If there was a deal there will be a transition period and British officials would have to be part of discussions - doing this signals again no deal - bluff or no bluff?
Berf

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 4:01 pm

Posturing, hopefully.
To my mind, PMBJ is like the typical drunken 'hard man' nightclub-goer who's just been thrown out by the bouncers....lots of shouting, swearing and threats of "I'll have you!" whilst backing away rapidly in case they react to his bluster.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 4:28 pm

lambo17841 wrote:We are not idiots as remainers seem to think.


No. Leave voters are not idiots. Leave voters that continue to support the current omnishambles *are* idiots. There’s a big difference and I chose my wording carefully.

If you fall into the latter camp of still supporting *this* Brexit (which is far from the one we were all promised), then yeah - I count you as an idiot.

Dictionary definition is a person of low intelligence. If you do nothing but shout “project fear”, then yes, you’re of too low intellect to deal with arguments put forward.

Don’t think there will be a recession? Tell us why with figures, facts, sources, experts and numbers. Don’t think there will be rationing? Tell us why, with facts, figures, sources, experts and numbers. Don’t think people will die due to medicine shortages? Tell us *why* with facts, figures, sources, experts and bloody numbers!

It’s not hard. I’ve been asking these questions since day one of my first post on here about Brexit. If you think Brexit (and now a No Deal Brexit) will be a good thing tell me *why*, and if you can prove it to me, and outweigh all of the qualified opinion that it will not be a good thing, i’ll switch sides right now.

If you are unable or unwilling to do that, but *still* disagree with experts, and your only justification is “project fear” then yes. You, Sir, strictly limited to where brexit is concerned, are an idiot. :dunno:

If you don’t like being called an idiot, then rather than be angry at remainers for calling you an idiot, why not concentrate on not being an idiot?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 4:43 pm

lambo17841 wrote:I voted to leave and I was aware what the possible out comes could be !


I’ve got to get Euros out this week for a holiday with the girlfriend. Can I send you an invoice for you to cover the difference the pound would have got me in August 2015 compared to now? At £300 it averages out to roughly €80? Happy to haggle the decimals.

You voted for it. You *knew* this could happen, so I presume that you prepared for it and are willing to cover that cost?

What about arranging the potential funeral costs of someone who dies due to a medicine shortage caused by Brexit? Will you be willing to do that, too?

Have you offered jobs to anyone at the Ford, JLR, Toyota, or Nissan plants or, importantly, pressed your local MP to do so?

No. You didn’t know what was possible. Because I don’t believe for a second that you’re a nasty enough individual to have voted for this paralytic clusterchunt of horrid inadequacy.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:12 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49405270

It'll be claimed to be 'Project Fear' by the usual suspects, no doubt.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 6:48 pm

Of all of the fears that humans have, death is perhaps the biggest. So when remainers start talking about leavers paying the funeral bills of someone that has died due to lack of drugs due to hard brexit, then the hyperbole has really been turned up to eleven.

So lets get this clear. Leavers (or those leavers promoting a hard brexit) will have "blood on their hands" ?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 6:57 pm

pbeardmore wrote:So lets get this clear. Leavers (or those leavers promoting a hard brexit) will have "blood on their hands" ?


It’s not hyperbole. A cabinet minister said it. From last November:

The Health Secretary reportedly told the Prime Minister and her cabinet that he ‘could not guarantee that people would not die’ if no Brexit deal was agreed.

Matt Hancock is reported to have said that lives will be at risk due to a shortage of medicine in a no deal scenario during the stormy five-hour meeting on Wednesday.


The consequences of a hard Brexit may result in deaths. I hope it doesn’t, but they can’t guarantee that it won’t. We have been told that the consequences of Brexit may result in death. If there is a death due to a Brexit-related medicine shortage, then yes. 100%.

If you don’t think that’s acceptable, then you should join in rejecting a no deal Brexit. And if you’re angry at remainers for pointing that out, rather than opposing a voluntary (and therefore avoidable) policy that they cannot guarantee that people won’t die because of that policy, then you’re part of the problem.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 7:02 pm

pbeardmore wrote:So lets get this clear. Leavers (or those leavers promoting a hard brexit) will have "blood on their hands" ?

You may like to listen to the phone call from a GP on LBC radio yesterday: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/shelagh-fogarty/no-deal-brexit-will-undoubtedly-kill-someone-gp/

If your GP told you that, would you just puff your cheeks and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about? :dunno: What about when he offers you a diagnosis - do you know better then too?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Zoom on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 7:26 pm

PMBJ really turning up the blame game now by saying it's all the fault of the EU (who didn't vote to leave) and the UK Parliament (who didn't vote for No Deal or for him) for not re-opening the WA;

Of course he's also sure that without the backstop MPs will be queuing up to pass the WA, rather than booting him and his shower of a cabinet out on a no confidence vote.....
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby UKTopgun on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:44 pm

Tommy and LNSE, totally with you guys. Your insight and rational arguments contrast greatly with the 'hope for the best' Brexiteer mentality.

We are about to witness the greatest act of self harm this country has ever seen.
But at least we'll whittle down all those Eastern Europeans clogging up our overcrowded doctors waiting rooms, eh.

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