Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

IATthenRIAT wrote:Dont see the point with the whole thing - when was it decided that being part of Europe was not working, remember the old saying - "If it aint broke - dont fix it".

Ok if leaving was going to benefit every single one of us living here and without any negative concequences, then fine, but as it Clearly will not, then just dont do it.


Probably the most sensible thing ever said on Brexit. That point of view has been sadly lost amongst the zealotry and reckless determination.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

There was always one good reason for leaving, that is the overarching aim of the EU to form a single state out of all. Those who like to identify first and foremost as Europeans have no qualms about becoming citizens of such a vast and cobbled together country. The influence which was once the UK and much more so older, smaller (much smaller) former Regal states such as Scotland, Wales an even England, will have will be absolutely negligible. Junker has already called for centralized Taxation, in Brussels of course. As for the EU Army, for this you can read an EU Air Force and an EU Navy, Marines etc. There'd be no point in one and not the other. When we've got to that point, its game set and match. You can be certain, if the UK remained in the EU and there was a crisis regarding the Falklands for example, the matter would, in the future, be taken out of the hands of what was the UK and, be dealt with by the appointed members of the EU parliament, likely none from the UK. You can bet your RIAT tickets for the next five years that there would be bugger all resolve to do anything but abandon the Falkland Islanders to their fate. Perhaps half the population of the UK feels no sovereign identity with such because they're too modern and forward in their outlook (musn't wallow in the past etc). I personally have no sense of reassurance about the economic outlook other than my belief that any problems afoot are purely engineered by the EU and the remain campaign. Nobody mentioned concerns about the Northern Ireland Border until after the 2016 referendum, Nicola Sturgeon fought very hard, along with the rest of the SNP to secure Scottish independence in 2014, knowing full well success would have meant leaving the EU and with no currency!

There is one thing, I have come across the net contributions and receipts for individual member states for 2017. Not surprisingly, Germany makes the largest net contribution, we are second, by a bit more than half the German input, next, by a little more than half of our input, is France. There are 10 net contributors, the rest are all net receivers, this in itself is an eye opener. Ireland and Italy make net contributions, the rest are all typical, Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Sweden etc. But the net receivers include; Belgium, Luxembourg with the biggest recipient of the funders' largesse being Poland! Go on Tusk, put us in our place!!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Domvickery »

Imagine believing all of that
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

But...but....but....it's only the rabid Remainiacs who indulge in 'Project Fear'!!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318

Here's my impartial source for the contributions bit. As for the EU Military Force, enough has been said about that on both sides and I'll stand by the claim that no other EU population will be willing to send their young folk to the South Atlantic to do our bidding, should it be necessary, should we remain in the fold. As for the Tax centralization, Junker did say this should be the next step, Verhofstadt, another man who's every reason to ensure one of the bank rollers stays, alluded to many things which the EU needed to get on with, being held up by Brexit. I'd suggest my critics need to stop an think just who's side they're actually taking?!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by boff180 »

If you think our military as an independent state still has the capability to defend the Falklands and/or liberate them from an invading force you’re delusional I’m afraid.

The only thing we could do would be to sit a Sub off the aggressor state and hit them with Cruise missiles.

Through WTO negotiations a no-deal Brexit puts both the Falklands and Gibraltar at greater risk than any military conflict. A direct result of voting to leave. They’ve never been so vulnerable.


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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

boff180 wrote:If you think our military as an independent state still has the capability to defend the Falklands and/or liberate them from an invading force you’re delusional I’m afraid.

The only thing we could do would be to sit a Sub off the aggressor state and hit them with Cruise missiles.

Through WTO negotiations a no-deal Brexit puts both the Falklands and Gibraltar at greater risk than any military conflict. A direct result of voting to leave. They’ve never been so vulnerable.


What a load of rubbish. In fact the only conflict we probably could undertake with one of the most advanced aircraft carriers, with the most advanced aircraft, with the most advanced anti air destroyer, with our amphibious capability and our expeditionary armed forces, is to protect, defend and retake the Falklands.

Now if you had said defend the U.K. from invasion or ballistic missile attack , then I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

We can defend The Falklands.

But .. who is going to invade them ? Argentina ? Don’t make me laugh, they are the Bury or Bolton Wanderers of armed forces.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

The myth of British independence really needs tapping on the head. It's easy to blame Europe but Europe hasn't ended British sovereignity. I think it ended around the 1940s.

And seeing the way our current PM is looking westwards it's only likely to continue.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by boff180 »

Do you actually realise how small our fleet and our ground forces are now? We may have capability but no where near the numbers that would be required to sustain a campaign alone. There are what? 1200 troops and a few Typhoons plus whatever naval vessel is deployed to the region at the time. Excellent capability but a size force that can quickly be overwhelmed.

The 1982 liberation, required 43 warships and 22 Fleet Auxillary ships supported by 62 merchant vessels. That included 2 aircraft carriers, 2 LPD, 8 destroyers, 15 frigates, 1 ice patrol ship, 2 patrol ships, 6 attack subs, 3 survey vessels, and 4 minesweepers.

Jump forward to 2019 and the entire RN fleet consists of... 1 aircraft carrier, 2 LPD, 6 destroyers, 13 frigates, 1 ice patrol ship, 4 patrol ships, 6 attack subs, 2 survey ships, and 13 minesweepers. That’s a total fleet of 48 vessels - with many either deployed elsewhere or laid up for re-fit. It is physically impossible for the RN to mount a task force anywhere near the scale required for a liberation mission unless the entire fleet was available.

That however still doesn’t ignore the fact that in a no deal scenario that the islands are extremely vulnerable due to WTO trading negotiations anyway. Something leave supporters seem to be ignoring.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

ericbee123 wrote:
But .. who is going to invade them ? Argentina ? Don’t make me laugh, they are the Bury or Bolton Wanderers of armed forces.


I *love* that analogy :lol:

Agree 100%

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ericbee123 »

boff180 wrote:Do you actually realise how small our fleet and our ground forces are now? We may have capability but no where near the numbers that would be required to sustain a campaign alone. There are what? 1200 troops and a few Typhoons plus whatever naval vessel is deployed to the region at the time. Excellent capability but a size force that can quickly be overwhelmed.

The 1982 liberation, required 43 warships and 22 Fleet Auxillary ships supported by 62 merchant vessels. That included 2 aircraft carriers, 2 LPD, 8 destroyers, 15 frigates, 1 ice patrol ship, 2 patrol ships, 6 attack subs, 3 survey vessels, and 4 minesweepers.

Jump forward to 2019 and the entire RN fleet consists of... 1 aircraft carrier, 2 LPD, 6 destroyers, 13 frigates, 1 ice patrol ship, 4 patrol ships, 6 attack subs, 2 survey ships, and 13 minesweepers. That’s a total fleet of 48 vessels - with many either deployed elsewhere or laid up for re-fit. It is physically impossible for the RN to mount a task force anywhere near the scale required for a liberation mission unless the entire fleet was available.

That however still doesn’t ignore the fact that in a no deal scenario that the islands are extremely vulnerable due to WTO trading negotiations anyway. Something leave supporters seem to be ignoring.


1x Type 45 , one QE Class with 5 F35s , one Albion class with Apache Helicopters deployed. and one Astute sub with Tomahawks would almost equal the firepower of the The Task Force 1982.

Argentina 2019 has less than Argentina 1982 ! A lot less.

Despite what you think, the U.K. has one of the most modern armed forces in the world ( if not a large one - but then again we’ve never had a large armed forces, we’ve been a small expeditionary force - a very good one ).
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Boff 180 and Brevet Cable,

I'd happily take time out to explain my position on Brexit but suffice it to say, I have never had any illusions about the economic difficulties we'd face. I notice you've chosen to latch onto the fact that our Armed Forces have taken a pasting over the last couple of decades, not something I actually commented on, however, as Ericbee 123 points out, these things are all relative. The principle point about the Falklands is a British, well Conservative, Government is the only one likely to have the resolve to act or do anything to avoid a conflict, in a manner which wouldn't disgrace us. I can't see Corbyn or Swinson overseeing any kind realistic response. The idea of relying on the EU to take any kind of stance and it would be their responsibility if we stayed in the EU, in time to come that is. I'm sure with an EU Defence Ministry we needn't expect even a sympathetic tone.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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No, I haven't.....both the poor state of our Armed Forces & 'Falklands War Mk.2' have been done to death elsewhere.
The only thing I did reply to is your erroneous assertions about the 'EU Army'.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:No, I haven't.....both the poor state of our Armed Forces & 'Falklands War Mk.2' have been done to death elsewhere.
The only thing I did reply to is your erroneous assertions about the 'EU Army'.

So what does the EU Army aim to achieve? how will it be composed? how will it relate to NATO? and with this incessant reference to an EU Army is it just a combined land force? Is it just going to be some kind of Titular organization? does it by default, refer to an EU Air Force and Navy as well? It can't be denied as it has been referred to and its formation called for by no end of EU protagonists.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

You might find some answers here:

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Having briefly read through, time constrained, the link on the previous post I wouldn't trust a British Government, of certain particular persuasion, not to do just that and sign up to the EU 'Army'. The narrative suggests a degree of enthusiasm for a single military force. If we were to remain in the EU I think it may be awkward not to go with the general flow. For instance, how many EU national governments are in any sense keen on the idea?

FB :cuppa:

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela- ... ment-nato/

Judging by the link here I'd say the over arching aim is to get everyone signed up, especially with glib remarks from the likes of Junker about guaranteeing peace in Europe, such comments really are a slap across the face to the level of American military investment in NATO, the original 'Euro Army'. American participation in NATO, despite the US military presence in Europe at the time, was pursued by countries belonging to the Western Defence Union, this included ourselves and the likes of France, Belgium, the Netherlands and so on. The reason nobody, especially in light of the Soviet attempt to blockade Berlin could face the cost of meeting the level of military preparedness required. The US, once gain, was asked to step up to the plate. They and ourselves already had, at a time when we really could present a worthwhile military contribution and maintained Berlin through the blockade, I don't think anyone else was involved but as always, I'll stand corrected.

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Last edited by Finningley Boy on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:If we were to remain in the EU I think it may be awkward not to go with the general flow.

Agreed, just like we had to adopt the Euro.... oh wait.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30495230

The link above reveals the very reason I made my mind up to vote out in the EU referendum. Not yet a going concern if I recall rightly at the time of the Heseltine interview. But as I said earlier, I would welcome any explanation as to why the SNP quickly dropped the EURO as their proposed currency post-independence win (for Scotland that is) and what drove them to pursue victory in the 2014 referendum knowing full well it would automatically mean Scotland's exit from the EU. As was made clear at the time. This cavalier risk by the SNP is now, apparently, the best reason they can think of for 'indyref2' that they're being removed from the EU against their preferred choice?!?!?!? As a Scotsman, I can only sum up that the SNP are plain and simple a hard boiled bunch of internationalist socialists who hate 'thae English Sassenachs'!

Small minded bunch they are if ever there were.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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I still don't think it's gonna happen...
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

We really are running out of options when the Archbishop of Canterbury brings in Jesus to sort things out;

"Jesus Christ is the source of reconciliation and healing for individuals and society. It is obviously right that among many others the churches should contribute to the emergence of a dynamic and united country post-Brexit, however it may be achieved. Every one of us must play the part they can in this task."

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Finningley Boy wrote:I would welcome any explanation as to why the SNP quickly dropped the EURO as their proposed currency post-independence win

Because at the time the Euro was looking pretty gash due to a combination of currency speculators & toxic debt.
Pretty much like the £ is these days.

Out of interest, if Labour ( or a Lab-LD Coalition ) were in power now, or come to power if PMBJ calls a snap election, and continued to pursue Brexit ( after all, Corbyn really is anti-EU, unlike 'Bandwagon BoJo' the plastic Brexiteer ) would you still be pro-Leave?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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pbeardmore wrote:We really are running out of options when the Archbishop of Canterbury brings in Jesus to sort things out;

"Jesus Christ is the source of reconciliation and healing for individuals and society. It is obviously right that among many others the churches should contribute to the emergence of a dynamic and united country post-Brexit, however it may be achieved. Every one of us must play the part they can in this task."

https://twitter.com/JustinWelby


He'd probably have more chance of getting us a deal than BoJo.
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Zoom »

it's good that the opposition parties have agreed a stance to oppose no deal but given that every single Parliamentary (real or indicative) vote to find an alternative to BoJo's DUKW over the cliff has failed; and the extreme polarisation that now exists, part of me thinks it just has to happen and then pick up the pieces sooner rather than later.

It's up to you opposition!!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:I would welcome any explanation as to why the SNP quickly dropped the EURO as their proposed currency post-independence win

Because at the time the Euro was looking pretty gash due to a combination of currency speculators & toxic debt.
Pretty much like the £ is these days.

Out of interest, if Labour ( or a Lab-LD Coalition ) were in power now, or come to power if PMBJ calls a snap election, and continued to pursue Brexit ( after all, Corbyn really is anti-EU, unlike 'Bandwagon BoJo' the plastic Brexiteer ) would you still be pro-Leave?

I get the impression you think I'm a tad Shallow Sir. I'm well aware not just of Jeremy's anti-EU mindset but personally recall the 1980 Labour Party conference proposal to withdraw the UK from the EEC upon the election of a Labour Government. That was Corbyn's day, the left's default position in the 1980s and before was to oppose the EEC because it would shove stick in the spokes over the pursuit of Marxist Socialist policies. Since the EU has become more overriding and promises/threatens to impose absolute rule over all its dominions (that's us) at a future juncture, the left not surprisingly have warmed to the idea of us old world nationalist imperialists being put in our place, therefore, the now far more overseeing EU is seen through more sympathetic eyes, certainly by the progressive liberal left who actually believe that the EU has kept peace since 1945 in Europe. Back then the Coal and Steel union had yet to be formed.

FB :cuppa:

PS

As for Corbyn, he simply hasn't caught up with what the score is now. Hence, trying to get the hang of it he doesn't know which way he should march. All he knows is that whatever the bloody Tories do, he'll do the polar opposite.
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