Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pen Pusher wrote:450,000 signatures in less than 2 hours. How many of them signatures are real people and not some Russian bot.

Brian


All of them are verified, so would the answer be none?

And why would Putin want to go against the disruptive actions of his bezzie mate's pal BJ?

Zoom
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Zoom »

Zoom wrote:it's good that the opposition parties have agreed a stance to oppose no deal but given that every single Parliamentary (real or indicative) vote to find an alternative to BoJo's DUKW over the cliff has failed; and the extreme polarisation that now exists, part of me thinks it just has to happen and then pick up the pieces sooner rather than later.


I didn't say I wanted it to happen or even thought it was anything other than suicide. Just that the whole issue has really brought the Brexit vote out of the woodwork (despite claims that enough leave voters have died since June 2016 to sway the result now) They are not going to be happy with either revoking or delaying our exit and will make sure their will goes through whether it be via a Brexit / Tory pact at the next GE or just by turning out in droves at another referendum. There doesn't seem to be any other way of resolving it.

If (when?) a no deal Brexit happens I hope it's short lived, BoJo is proved wrong in that the EU didn't blink, and we can go back to some sort of trade / other deals / temporary solution to Ireland, even though as BC said we will have torn a lot of them up on Oct 31st. I also sincerely hope the likes of Airbus JLR BMW Toyota Honda etc don't throw their toys out of the pram and shut up shop soon after, they must have the resilience to wait and see what happens.
Last edited by Zoom on Wed 28 Aug 2019, 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

Very interesting that the Queen has now played a key role within the process. She could have refused the request. Having said that, since when did royalty have an interest in democracy? (couldn't resist)
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

She could have refused the request.

Not really.
Technically, yes....but the last British Monarch to go against the will of Parliament lost his head. :whistle:
The Monarch is supposed to be impartial & above Party politics.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Brevet Cable wrote:
She could have refused the request.

Not really.
Technically, yes....but the last British Monarch to go against the will of Parliament lost his head. :whistle:
The Monarch is supposed to be impartial & above Party politics.


She should have refused, to preserve parliamentary democracy being abused for political reasons.

Parliament voted against a No-deal in March.

Following debate, MPs voted to reject leaving the European Union without a deal. The vote is not legally binding, but indicates the will of the House.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2019/march/house-of-commons-to-vote-on-no-deal-brexit/

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effects
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by effects »

Tommy wrote:It’s Brexit at all costs, isn’t it.

Brexit was literally run on a campaign of is “taking back control”. Now a leader we didn’t vote for, us committing a deeply *deeply* undemocratic act, to pursue a policy that the majority of people *we* elected have already voted against.

You rank hypocrites, each every one of you who is unable to see this for what it is. You don’t care about whatever means are made to get there. History will remember this badly. History will remember you badly. And I’m ashamed that I have to see people whom I otherwise respect and even admire stoop to defending the indefensible.

And yes, if the EU or even Parliament ever did something like that to stop Brexit, I would lend my voice in the strongest of possible terms to condemning it.

A quick question, how many weeks do MPs normally have off for their trips to the seaside?
Add to that another week for queen's speech.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

What I cannot understand or accept is the fact that no party seems to have any problem in buggering off for their self serving conferences which do nothing in the public interest, instead of cancelling or at least suspending and staying in session to try and sort this mess out. Emblematic of everything that is wrong with the current political parties in this country.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

effects wrote:A quick question, how many weeks do MPs normally have off for their trips to the seaside?

Some would say it's appropriate that they have the same 'holidays' as schoolkids -- 2 weeks for Christmas, 2 weeks for Easter & 6 weeks in the summer.

starbuck wrote:...instead of cancelling or at least suspending and staying in session to try and sort this mess out.

From what I recall, some of them wanted to, just like they wanted to cancel the recent recess....unfortunately, only the Government ( or a single Government front-bencher? ) can call for that & the Government has a veto - no way in Hell was PMBJ ever going to agree to it.
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pbeardmore
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

"but the last British Monarch to go against the will of Parliament lost his head."

I think it's clear that Parliament wants to sit so the Queen has gone against their will. It's a huge decision..huge
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by RAF4EVER »

And they call this DEMOCRACY????? :dizzy: :dizzy:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Brevet Cable wrote:
effects wrote:A quick question, how many weeks do MPs normally have off for their trips to the seaside?

Some would say it's appropriate that they have the same 'holidays' as schoolkids -- 2 weeks for Christmas, 2 weeks for Easter & 6 weeks in the summer.

starbuck wrote:...instead of cancelling or at least suspending and staying in session to try and sort this mess out.

From what I recall, some of them wanted to, just like they wanted to cancel the recent recess....unfortunately, only the Government ( or a single Government front-bencher? ) can call for that & the Government has a veto - no way in Hell was PMBJ ever going to agree to it.

The trips to the seaside are the conferences, which equates to another month off!!
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Apologies, I thought you were on about the Parliamentary Recesses.
As far as I can recall, there is ( was? ) a plan to cancel the shutdown which normally occurs for the Conferences, but that the Conferences themselves would still take place....no idea on the current state of play for that.
Presumably that's one of the reasons why PMBJ's done what he did, to prevent MPs doing anything to increase the period Parliament sits.

Edited to add....
And I see that in keeping with FPMTM, PMBJ is playing the buzzword game - his current one being 'upskilling'.
How the hell do you 'upskill' schools ( something he repeated in pretty much every interview he did today ) ?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

Brevet Cable wrote:And I see that in keeping with FPMTM, PMBJ is playing the buzzword game - his current one being 'upskilling'.

You can see the Dominic Cummings influence with all these phrases - a few weeks ago they were all out there talking about "the undemocratic backstop". After a few days that was revised across the board to be the "anti-democratic backstop".
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:450,000 signatures in less than 2 hours. How many of them signatures are real people and not some Russian bot.

Brian


All of them are verified, so would the answer be none?

And why would Putin want to go against the disruptive actions of his bezzie mate's pal BJ?


Wonder if any of the vote leave votes were some Russian bot.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:And I see that in keeping with FPMTM, PMBJ is playing the buzzword game - his current one being 'upskilling'.

You can see the Dominic Cummings influence with all these phrases - a few weeks ago they were all out there talking about "the undemocratic backstop". After a few days that was revised across the board to be the "anti-democratic backstop".


He's the guy who not only was in contempt of Parliament is clearly contemptuous of Parliament.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

Brevet Cable wrote:BBC saying 'Mid September', Sky being more specific & saying 9th September.
Surprised scumbag BoJo's missing a trick by not doing it on 3rd September.

Let's see how many Conservative MPs have got the balls to stick by their convictions and resign in protest ... and I don't mean just stand-down as front-benchers, I mean resign from the Conservative Party.


Was reported last night Ruth Davidson was considering resigning as Leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Don't really know if this is a good move though as the more some Conservatives quit, the more that PMBJ can fill those positions with Brexiteers. Ruth Davidson was opposed to a No Deal Brexit.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Nope, not a good move at all....just resigning as Leader is, as you say, counter-productive.

If she decided to stand down as an MP it would lead to a by-election & the current Government would lose it's majority ( even with DUP support it would be on par with the Opposition ) until that' held...and there's no guarantee the Conservatives would retain the seat.
If she quit the Conservative Party & remained as an Independent MP the current Government would be a minority one.
Anything else is mere gesturing.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Pen Pusher wrote:450,000 signatures in less than 2 hours. How many of them signatures are real people and not some Russian bot.

Brian

Good point, the more I hear about this the less concerned I am with what is an extension, as I understand it, of the period that Parliament won't be in session anyway, by about four days? In the meantime, all those on the side of the EU can shout about it publicly as they would any other time, when Parliament is not open for Business. I'm sure they won't miss a trick. :wink:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

It's now official - Ruth Davidson quits.

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backl ... s-11796535

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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So how many times will Corbyn be allowed to hypothetically suspend parliament for the sole purpose of pressing through controversial legislation that said parliament has, acting for their constituents who voted for them, already rejected? And what for?

I presume that you’ll happy-clap the same if, say, the EU Parliament was suspended so that the nonsense non-existent scaremongering “EU Army” can be activated. Or to allow Turkey to join? Or to force the U.K. to join the Euro?

Again; you apologists are absolutely rank hypocrites. You’ve been shouting “democracy!” From the rooftops for three years. Now democracy is suspended you’re clapping along.

You don’t care about “democracy” or “parliamentary sovereignty” one jot, do you? You’re all just liars and fools.

And, you double-think idiots; prorogation is *not* the same as recess. Prorogation is the suspension of *all* parliament. There are no available emergency sessions. Secondly, recess is voted for by MPs, not called for at the whim of some child who thinks he’s playing a good game of Risk, and thirdly, recess was at least planned for and allowed to be debated. This is a dirty unsportsmanlike act for the sole cynical purpose of pushing through something for which he has no authority for.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Tommy wrote:So how many times will Corbyn be allowed to hypothetically suspend parliament for the sole purpose of pressing through controversial legislation that said parliament has, acting for their constituents who voted for them, already rejected? And what for?

I presume that you’ll happy-clap the same if, say, the EU Parliament was suspended so that the nonsense non-existent scaremongering “EU Army” can be activated. Or to allow Turkey to join? Or to force the U.K. to join the Euro?

Again; you apologists are absolutely rank hypocrites. You’ve been shouting “democracy!” From the rooftops for three years. Now democracy is suspended you’re clapping along.

You don’t care about “democracy” or “parliamentary sovereignty” one jot, do you? You’re all just liars and fools.

And, you double-think idiots; prorogation is *not* the same as recess. Prorogation is the suspension of *all* parliament. There are no available emergency sessions. Secondly, recess is voted for by MPs, not called for at the whim of some child who thinks he’s playing a good game of Risk, and thirdly, recess was at least planned for and allowed to be debated. This is a dirty unsportsmanlike act for the sole cynical purpose of pushing through something for which he has no authority for.

Much as I agree with you Tommy ,you are beginning to sound like a child of Dan O !
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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aceyone wrote:
Tommy wrote:So how many times will Corbyn be allowed to hypothetically suspend parliament for the sole purpose of pressing through controversial legislation that said parliament has, acting for their constituents who voted for them, already rejected? And what for?

I presume that you’ll happy-clap the same if, say, the EU Parliament was suspended so that the nonsense non-existent scaremongering “EU Army” can be activated. Or to allow Turkey to join? Or to force the U.K. to join the Euro?

Again; you apologists are absolutely rank hypocrites. You’ve been shouting “democracy!” From the rooftops for three years. Now democracy is suspended you’re clapping along.

You don’t care about “democracy” or “parliamentary sovereignty” one jot, do you? You’re all just liars and fools.

And, you double-think idiots; prorogation is *not* the same as recess. Prorogation is the suspension of *all* parliament. There are no available emergency sessions. Secondly, recess is voted for by MPs, not called for at the whim of some child who thinks he’s playing a good game of Risk, and thirdly, recess was at least planned for and allowed to be debated. This is a dirty unsportsmanlike act for the sole cynical purpose of pushing through something for which he has no authority for.

Much as I agree with you Tommy ,you are beginning to sound like a child of Dan O !


A lot of the accusations about Parliamentary Democracy and pulling up the draw bridge stuff has always come from the remain side and commentators in the EU itself. Fear had been spread among non-UK nationals that they'll all have to leave which is nonsense and has always been countered by the Government. Attempts, clear attempts, indeed to use parliament to derail Brexit have gone on since Gina Miller started expending her not insubstantial wealth on trying to use the institution to her advantage to reverse the referendum outcome. Of course those on her side and she, will insist they are doing the democratic thing and to object means Brexiteers are attacking the vey institution they hold dear. I'm certain those acting malevolently by twisting arguments by defending Parliament when its being used to challenge the Brexit decision and making sweeping statements about foreign nationals being sent home and persecuted if they remain are the ones whom History will Judge harshly. Another question about the backstop, or the reason Theresa May invented the infernal thing, I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Looking at some of the members of the public interviewed on the TV, I get the impression that trashing our constitution means little to them and I think BJ has picked up on this. The end justifies the means for him (and many Brexiters) and clearly, he will do anything.

It is interesting to look at the comments made very recently by cabinet members re closing down Parliament. They were 100% against it a few weeks ago but now, they don't seem to mind. As with TM, a PM cannot operate without a cabinet. Those ministers must share responsibility.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament

"I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum?"

as stated before, I'm a leaver. You may not recall the NI border issue being raised but it definately was. Any well informed voter should have been including the NI border issue "in the mix" as part of their decision making process.
Last edited by pbeardmore on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

I speak only factually.

These people apologising for what BoJo is doing are, by definition, hypocrites. They have for three years used “democracy” as their de riguer defence on Brexit, and yet when democracy is then suspended, they clap along.

These people apologising for what BoJo is doing are, also by definition, engaging in double-think.

I’ve devoted a considerable amount of time to this thread, always as civil and as courteous and as respectful as one felt the opposition deserved. But time and again such civility and courteousness and respect has been abused.

The people who are apologising for what BoJo is doing no-longer deserve my respect and courteousness. It’s not a bottomless well that exists regardless of what the other party does.

And I’m not being insulting by calling them hypocrites or idiots. They just factually are. I’m not lying and making up insults about them that aren’t true. If they have a problem with me calling them a hypocrite because they are one, they maybe the easiest solution is to not be a hypocrite. :dunno:

You know whom else I abhor and think, factually, is an idiot? DanO.

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