Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

pbeardmore wrote:
It is interesting to look at the comments made very recently by cabinet members re closing down Parliament. They were 100% against it a few weeks ago but now, they don't seem to mind. As with TM, a PM cannot operate without a cabinet. Those ministers must share responsibility.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament


Agreed. The cabinet bunch are even worse, Tbf. The one solace that is Johnson’s is that he never promised not to do it, like them. They need to be held accountable to their previous statements - each of them need a Paxman-style grilling on this point.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

JRM can lie to the BBC etc about how normal a process it is etc etc but, thankfully, he can't do that to a judge. It's clear that this is a fundamental breach of our constitutional conventions and I think there is a good chance that the decision will be over turned. The fly in the ointment is that the decision was actually made by the Queen so a court overturning the decision has huge implications.

A more savvy monarch (and their advisors) would have agreed the decision (as usual) but not the longer extension. Would Boris have dared go public that the Queen had refused the longer extension?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Tommy wrote:I speak only factually.

These people apologising for what BoJo is doing are, by definition, hypocrites. They have for three years used “democracy” as their de riguer defence on Brexit, and yet when democracy is then suspended, they clap along.

These people apologising for what BoJo is doing are, also by definition, engaging in double-think.

I’ve devoted a considerable amount of time to this thread, always as civil and as courteous and as respectful as one felt the opposition deserved. But time and again such civility and courteousness and respect has been abused.

The people who are apologising for what BoJo is doing no-longer deserve my respect and courteousness. It’s not a bottomless well that exists regardless of what the other party does.

And I’m not being insulting by calling them hypocrites or idiots. They just factually are. I’m not lying and making up insults about them that aren’t true. If they have a problem with me calling them a hypocrite because they are one, they maybe the easiest solution is to not be a hypocrite. :dunno:

You know whom else I abhor and think, factually, is an idiot? DanO.

You may have been courteous yourself Tommy, but others on here love a damn good sneer, every response to the Brexit argument has to be in the form of a contemptuous laugh at the opposition. My opposition to the EU is, as pointed out before I'm sure, not so much where we are now, but where the bloody hell we'll end up, if we stay. I don't dismiss the economic uncertainties, but ,, Jesus Christ, the way we get it shovelled about that we'll face an 'existential' crisis whatever the hell that's supposed to mean and trying to compare Brexit with some kind of world war 2 economic situation. I can only speak for myself, I have no wish to end trade agreements with Europe, I fully support being in NATO, something which has mistakenly been merged into the argument by remainers to suggest we want to leave NATO as well by default. This is absolute nonsense and LIES!!!! But stay in the EU and we risk, in the long term, losing the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as a sovereign national identity. The people, many in the EU with position, who want to go down that route I expect envisage a World Dominion, Utopia at some stage in the future. It will end in disaster, look what's happening now already. And I'm certain we are not to blame, the intransigence and desire to do us harm dressed up as 'just protecting the interests of the other 27 member states' is an example how disingenuous attempts, to ensure we don't leave, are afoot. Jeremy Corbyn didn't want to leave because staying in the EU buggers the chances for a wholly Marxist UK Government one day. Modern day left-wing Liberals crave staying in because of the outlook I've outlined five lines above. One reason I want to leave is because, we've never been asked if we want to hand over sovereignty entirely to what will after all be foreign governance from afar and with little or in fact, no empathy. Now I realise the SNP make similar arguments for pulling out of the UK, and were in 2014, prepared to leave both the UK and EU in order to achieve that. The Scots chose to stay, that was their referendum outcome. Alex Salmond said before the result it would be for a life time if I recall right. within days we were hearing about the '45%' s if it was the bigger figure, same after the EU referendum 'what about the 48%' It was close, but the outcome is simply judged.

FB :cuppa:

right now for that cup of tea I promised myself! :biggrin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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pbeardmore wrote:JRM can lie to the BBC etc about how normal a process it is etc etc but, thankfully, he can't do that to a judge. It's clear that this is a fundamental breach of our constitutional conventions and I think there is a good chance that the decision will be over turned. The fly in the ointment is that the decision was actually made by the Queen so a court overturning the decision has huge implications.

A more savvy monarch (and their advisors) would have agreed the decision (as usual) but not the longer extension. Would Boris have dared go public that the Queen had refused the longer extension?

Prorogation is a normal process, though.
There's also no limit on how long it can be for.
So technically, PMBJ was within his rights to do what he did.
The Queen had no reason not to approve it.

The argument, though, is why he did it and the implications for the Country given his October 31st deadline for leaving the EU.
That seems to be the basis for the legal action in Scotland ( and reportedly a similar challenge is being made in NI )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:...something which has mistakenly been merged into the argument by remainers to suggest we want to leave NATO as well by default.


Source?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Finningley Boy wrote:

I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.


Probably because they thought nobody's that stupid to mess about with peace in Ireland.

They were wrong to think that. There's plenty stupidity around as we've seen recently.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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The BBC were quoting Hansard this morning, saying the the period requested was twice as long as the norm from any previous PM,

Ruth Fox, the director of the highly respected Hansard Society, a leading source of independent research and advice on parliamentary affairs, said it was an “affront to parliamentary democracy”.

considering how many PMs the Queen has dealt with, she would have every right (both constitutionally and under common sense) to ask why. The concept that there is no limit (a month? a year? ) is true conceptually but within the limits of an unwritten constitution, common sense and precident has to play a part (as it has with every PM we have had - up till now), when does the Queen draw a line?

I'm sure many many PMs must have loved the idea of bypassing Parliament in an attempt to push through their own agenda but BJ is the first.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Again, though, she had no reason to do so as he was within his rights.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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His rights are not contained in written statute, they are simply a convention. Conventions, by defintion, are based on previous conventions/practices formed from centuries of government. The convention is the closing down of Parliament, the reason to do so and the time period requested. He has breached convention in 2 of these 3 and, on that basis, the Queen has every right to question the PM. But decided not to.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Pat Murphy »

pbeardmore wrote:
I'm sure many many PMs must have loved the idea of bypassing Parliament in an attempt to push through their own agenda but BJ is the first.


...and therein lies the problem with all of this. Take Brexit to one side for the moment. Let's put a hypothetical situation to test. In one year, Iran announces the bomb. The US under Trump looking to be re-elected, takes action and decides to use Fairford as a base to launch from and requests permission from The UK Gov to do so. There is uproar in the house and there is no way this will get through Parliament, but as it's a year since the last one, The PM decides to Prorogue the house for a new Queens Speech, for let's say 5 weeks..... during which time the situation deteriorates and a Cobra meeting/The Cabinet decides to allow said use of Fairford....

Now I am sure that this wouldn't be allowed to happen....or am I. We have all seen various ministers talking recently, during the tory leadership election, about Prorogation being undemocratic, not happening etc, but here we are. They are now silent!! The only one coughing up to the press so far has been Rees Mogg and is anyone surprised at his take on the situation today? No not really.

So the moral of the tale is: If you don't want to open Pandora's Box and let all the evils of the world out, then leave the lid alone. Once it's opened, that's it, You can't stuff it closed again, Prorogation to suit unpalatable ends will be out there, as a political tool to be used at any PM's convenience. I hope I'm wrong on this, but lately NOTHING surprises me. I'm just reaching the point of what will be, will be and we really can't stop it.

This will either be the best thing he's done and forces The EU's hand into a softer Brexit via a revised deal that can get through Parliament, or it will be a monumental Clusterfunk and it'll be you and me picking up the pieces in years to come, not the PM or his cohorts, They'll just retire from politics and go back to their "Old Money" while the rest of us are....well we won't know that bit until it's too late.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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pbeardmore wrote:His rights are not contained in written statute, they are simply a convention. Conventions, by defintion, are based on previous conventions/practices formed from centuries of government. The convention is the closing down of Parliament, the reason to do so and the time period requested. He has breached convention in 2 of these 3 and, on that basis, the Queen has every right to question the PM. But decided not to.


Statute or convention are irrelevant - he was legally entitled to do so and it's now down to the Courts to determine otherwise.
If it wasn't for the short timeframe between Parliament returning from recess, the time off for the Party Conferences, the Queens Speech, and his self-imposed Leave date there probably wouldn't have been any arguments ( it's only a 5-week prorogation instead of the more usual 3 weeks ) especially given the extended period this Parliament has sat for.

Pat Murphy wrote:Prorogation to suit unpalatable ends will be out there, as a political tool to be used at any PM's convenience.


It already has been, as recently as 1997,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prorogation_in_the_United_Kingdom
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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And that's the exact argument that the judges will have to consider. They know full well that if they allow BJ's attempt, they themselves are ammending our constitutution and creating case law that allows the PM to do this . Immensely dangerous IMHO and hard to see how judges will allow this. The obvious solution is for the courts to allow the closing down but limit it to the normal time period requested by previous PM's.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Yes, they are....until the Courts decide otherwise ( if, of course, they do )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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As it's convention, the courts have centuries of previous practice to consider. If the PM had a statutory right to perogue , the statute would include the specific circumstances, time scale etc etc (plus the statute itself would have gone though Parliament so all of the various circumstances would have been discussed, debated anticipated) and the Queen would not be involved.

How could anyone seek a judicial review if the PM was doing something that they had a statutory right to do?

The fact that the law courts are considering a breach on convention is crucial as, for the first time, they will be re-enforcing this specific convention with the weight of case law or wiping away centruries of practice and approving BJ's new interpretation.

Interesting that the QC is already giving the Queen an easy way out (and therefore the courts), relying on her being badly advised rather than making the wrong decision: clever................

Aidan O’Neill QC, representing the petitioners, said the prorogation was “unprecedented” and the petitioners are invoking the court’s “constitutional jurisdiction.”

He said:

“Prorogation is being used to create something which is irreversible, that the UK will be made to leave the EU deal or no deal, do or die, and Parliament is being prevented by abuse of the power of prorogation from doing anything about it. There are no precedents for the abuse of prorogation.

“The power of prorogation is not one which is unlimited or unfettered but has to be used in accordance with public trust.”

The case is being heard by Lord Doherty. O’Neill said the Queen should be obliged to recall the prorogation order if it turned out to be based on an error of law. He said:

“If the court is satisfied that the advice to the sovereign given yesterday that Parliament be prorogued is in fact found to be an abuse of power based on an error of law, then there should be an obligation on the sovereign to recall that order of prorogation because the sovereign is not above the law.”


The legal challenge is being led by SNP MP Joanna Cherry QC and Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, aided by Jo Maugham of the Good Law Project.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:

I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.


Probably because they thought nobody's that stupid to mess about with peace in Ireland.

They were wrong to think that. There's plenty stupidity around as we've seen recently.

Or more likely they didn't think the vote would go the way it did. Repeated assurances, to date, by the British Government that they have no intention of putting a hard border in Northern Ireland continue to fly over everyone's heads. I would suggest it wasn't a considered a problem but its been damn well turned into one now alright.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:...something which has mistakenly been merged into the argument by remainers to suggest we want to leave NATO as well by default.


Source?

Far too many and nebulous but they've surfaced from time to time. I will get back to you though.

FB
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:Or more likely they didn't think the vote would go the way it did. Repeated assurances, to date, by the British Government that they have no intention of putting a hard border in Northern Ireland continue to fly over everyone's heads. I would suggest it wasn't a considered a problem but its been damn well turned into one now alright.

FB

Did you miss the link on the previous page? Here it is again: https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ish-border
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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pbeardmore wrote:As it's convention, the courts have centuries of previous practice to consider. If the PM had a statutory right to perogue , the statute would include the specific circumstances, time scale etc etc (plus the statute itself would have gone though Parliament so all of the various circumstances would have been discussed, debated anticipated) and the Queen would not be involved.

How could anyone seek a judicial review if the PM was doing something that they had a statutory right to do?

The fact that the law courts are considering a breach on convention is crucial as, for the first time, they will be re-enforcing this specific convention with the weight of case law or wiping away centruries of practice and approving BJ's new interpretation.

Interesting that the QC is already giving the Queen an easy way out (and therefore the courts), relying on her being badly advised rather than making the wrong decision: clever................

Aidan O’Neill QC, representing the petitioners, said the prorogation was “unprecedented” and the petitioners are invoking the court’s “constitutional jurisdiction.”

He said:

“Prorogation is being used to create something which is irreversible, that the UK will be made to leave the EU deal or no deal, do or die, and Parliament is being prevented by abuse of the power of prorogation from doing anything about it. There are no precedents for the abuse of prorogation.

“The power of prorogation is not one which is unlimited or unfettered but has to be used in accordance with public trust.”

The case is being heard by Lord Doherty. O’Neill said the Queen should be obliged to recall the prorogation order if it turned out to be based on an error of law. He said:

“If the court is satisfied that the advice to the sovereign given yesterday that Parliament be prorogued is in fact found to be an abuse of power based on an error of law, then there should be an obligation on the sovereign to recall that order of prorogation because the sovereign is not above the law.”


The legal challenge is being led by SNP MP Joanna Cherry QC and Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, aided by Jo Maugham of the Good Law Project.


Prorogation of Parliament : https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8589#fullreport -- read the final paragraph :
Prorogation being a prerogative power, there is no obvious legal mechanism by which Parliament could prevent its exercise otherwise than by passing legislation to constrain it. Parliament has legislated to constrain or replace the prerogative in the past. For instance, whereas previously the dissolution of Parliament prior to a General Election was an exclusively prerogative power, the calling of an election is now governed by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.


That's exactly what's happening now.....and until ( if ) that challenge succeeds, PMBJ was entitled to do what he did.
You can also bet your bottom Euro that HMQ had her legal beagles confirm this before she approved it ( after all, it wasn't unexpected )

Finningley Boy wrote:Far too many and nebulous but they've surfaced from time to time. I will get back to you though.

:up:
Genuine question, as I haven't heard it raised in any of the debates I've listened to post-referendum.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:

I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.


Probably because they thought nobody's that stupid to mess about with peace in Ireland.

They were wrong to think that. There's plenty stupidity around as we've seen recently.

Or more likely they didn't think the vote would go the way it did. Repeated assurances, to date, by the British Government that they have no intention of putting a hard border in Northern Ireland continue to fly over everyone's heads. I would suggest it wasn't a considered a problem but its been damn well turned into one now alright.

FB


Oh well if the British Government said it then that's all right.

Did they paint it on the side of a bus?

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-and-nato-a ... he-puzzle/

Although the link here doesn't spell anything gout in simple terms, it alludes to the concerns, needlessly, that the UK is contemplating leaving NATO.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:

I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.


Probably because they thought nobody's that stupid to mess about with peace in Ireland.

They were wrong to think that. There's plenty stupidity around as we've seen recently.

Or more likely they didn't think the vote would go the way it did. Repeated assurances, to date, by the British Government that they have no intention of putting a hard border in Northern Ireland continue to fly over everyone's heads. I would suggest it wasn't a considered a problem but its been damn well turned into one now alright.

FB


Oh well if the British Government said it then that's all right.

Did they paint it on the side of a bus?

If as you suggest, the EU were well aware of the potential for a problem with the inner Irish Border before the referendum, why did it take them so long after the referendum to mention it? I'd say the reason was they hadn't thought of it at all ut seized upon an opportunity to shove a stick in the spokes.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Just watching Forces News, an EU Defence minister is holding forth about a role for the EU policing the sea lanes! Some trading block, its Navy policing the sea lanes now as well.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:If as you suggest, the EU were well aware of the potential for a problem with the inner Irish Border before the referendum, why did it take them so long after the referendum to mention it?
FB


Oh look an article on it reporting EU Commissioner concerns a month before the referendum.....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... phil-hogan

It was mentioned, idiots didn't bother reading all the facts before voting and therefore think it wasn't.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Oh and from February 2016 here is El Presidente Johnson claiming there is no issue over the Irish Border....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

One word for this man. Scum.


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