Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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rockfordstone
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by rockfordstone »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:

I don't recall the EU or anyone for that matter, raising the subject of the Northern Ireland Border before the referendum? Indeed, it was some time, can't recall how long, but long enough after that it became a concern thrown up by the EU, and quite suddenly.


Probably because they thought nobody's that stupid to mess about with peace in Ireland.

They were wrong to think that. There's plenty stupidity around as we've seen recently.

Or more likely they didn't think the vote would go the way it did. Repeated assurances, to date, by the British Government that they have no intention of putting a hard border in Northern Ireland continue to fly over everyone's heads. I would suggest it wasn't a considered a problem but its been damn well turned into one now alright.

FB


Oh well if the British Government said it then that's all right.

Did they paint it on the side of a bus?


it was mentioned before the referendum. the woman who became our prime minster and brought in the backstop measure talked about the need for a border in Ireland after Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809

this was days before the referendum and she basically says how can you be out of the customs union and free movement without putting a border or some mechanism in place.

say what you like about her in the end. she knew it was going to be an issue

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

She may have mentioned it but it certainly didn't become a significant issue until after when the EU latched onto it. One thing is for sure, again, if we're going to believe what politicians say, then both May and Johnson have said they would not place a hard border between the North and South. There shouldn't need to be after Brexit anymore than there is a need for one now. The imposition of a border or the EU counter that there'll need to be one is simply to ensure that an unacceptable state of affairs prevails. That is to say, if Brexit happens, it will mean in name only (Backstop in place, for ever and a day) or the EU get to hive off Northern Ireland and drag it off with them. Should that happen, you may not have the IRA alone to worry about, as everyone seems to kow-tow to these days, or the resurgence there of, but you will have further civil unrest between the Ulster Loyalists and the IRA anyway. The best part of this will be, that its going to be the EU's problem solely to deal with. Again, nobody on the Brexit side wants to stop trading. Even so, and I admit, we've more than our fair share of lunk headed idiots who bang on about WTO rules, like its some sort under written guarantee, I know the problems we face, but some things are more important in the long run. Speaking of Brexit idiocy, a good friend of mine who can't wait to scoff down chlorinated chicken and thinks Belgium is a cobbled together lashup put together after the Second World War, is an example I'm pained to admit, is on my side. :wall:

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rockfordstone
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by rockfordstone »

Finningley Boy wrote: One thing is for sure, again, if we're going to believe what politicians say, then both May and Johnson have said they would not place a hard border between the North and South.


i don't believe what politicians say.

there will have to be some form of border, whether that is in the sea or on the border itself. Pretty sure WTO terms state there has to be a border unless there is a prior agreement with the 2 differing trade blocs.

unless we effectively leave NI in a customs union and put a border in the sea (which has i believe been offered), i can't see any other way you can implement a system that doesn't put some form of border system in place.

say we do it with cameras. that's great until some idiot goes and smashes the cameras. they then have to put a guard on the site to protect the cameras. once some idiot attacks the guard, he gets a police protection. when the police protecting the guard gets attacked, it gets replaced with a soldier with a gun....

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Not sure what PMBJ said before he became PM ( his stance swayed more than a drunken student during freshers week ) but, as per a post I made last week...
Nice bit of weasle-wording by PMBJ, though, in saying that 'under no circumstances will the UK put up checks and controls on the Irish border'.
No mention of not doing so a few miles from the actual border, then :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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the irony is that many leavers are helping to destroy the very thing that they cherished so much. They pointed to the faceless bureaucrats , hundreds of miles away and rejected them in preference to our democratically elected MPs in London and yet it is these very elected MPs that they now seek to undermine.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

Again, I'm not apologising for him or defending him but the MP's have undermined themselves time and again and show no sign of change. Parliament is broken regardless of having 3 or 4 extra days for meaningless debate. The majority of discussion within the media and on here since the announcement on Weds has been around the principles of democracy, government, elected representation etc, but, if we take him at his word and we are going to leave on the 31st October it is time to get practical and force the issue.

Whether it will be to our greater good or not only time can really tell. To be honest I don't care anymore, deal / no deal / stay, lets just DO SOMETHING.

What has Corbyn done since Weds? Why has he not said that the first thing he is going to do next Monday morning is to call a vote of no confidence? He is completely impotent.

For the whole summer recess all he has been able to come up with is touting a plan where he becomes an interim Prime Minister, so basically replacing a barely elected Prime Minister with another un-elected Prime Minister. Brilliant.

And talking of Prime Ministerial hypocrisy it's good to see even our elder statesmen can't help themselves with John Major all of a sudden up in arms at a PM proroguing Parliament to avoid MP's having their say in the chamber, even though he had no qualms about pulling the same stunt in 1997. :wall:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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starbuck
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Yeah, what he said!!

And again just to add, I repeat what I said the other day, I actually think this makes it more likely that we do end up with a deal.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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I still don't agree with him doing it and I still think that - like most other things he's said and done since becoming PM - it's more aimed at winning votes from Leave supporters in the anticipated forthcoming GE.

As for those who oppose no-deal ( and those who oppose leaving at all ) the problem is that whilst this should have polarised their efforts the reality is that they're still too busy fighting amongst themselves, which isn't helped by 'Magic Grandad's agenda of wanting to become PM.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:I still don't agree with him doing it and I still think that - like most other things he's said and done since becoming PM - it's more aimed at winning votes from Leave supporters in the anticipated forthcoming GE.

As for those who oppose no-deal ( and those who oppose leaving at all ) the problem is that whilst this should have polarised their efforts the reality is that they're still too busy fighting amongst themselves, which isn't helped by 'Magic Grandad's agenda of wanting to become PM.

Magic Grandad eh, that kind of nickname has all manner of connotations, some of which could get 'I'm nicked! :biggrin:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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It's been doing the rounds on a number of forums ( ARRSE in particular ) for a number of years - I think it dates back to his surprise election as leader of the Party.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

I would have more sympathy for BJ if he came out and said that these are extraordinary circumstances, never faced by the nation before and, on that basis, he has been forced to take extraoudinary action. But him, JRM and the team seem to be taking the line that's its all perfectly normal,

on Newsnight last night, a Con MP was claiming that its fine to close down Parliament for the time chosen as so many party members had spent mony on hotel bookings for the party conferences :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Im still trying to think of the original motive for leaving in the first place - did they really think it would create a far better country for every one living here - more stable with more money to go around, or wonder if the said politicians involved in it were just lining thier own pockets.
After all - no politician is in power for the good of the people, its all about them selves and what they can get out of it.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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IAT then RIAT,

you've made the same misunderstanding constantly maintained by the remain folk, that we voted Brexit to get a bigger bag of money. The argument for leaving isn't, and I promise you from my perspective, about nor has it ever been about instant economic gratification. It is far more important than that, if you feel you belong, to your country, if you feel familiar with your country's traditions and customs, its record of past achievements etc. If not, if you feel national identity, sovereignty and sticking up for it is silly, anachronistic and you are indifferent about wherever in the world you end up and would be just as happy being in Greece or.... somewhere else, Iran perhaps, then you might be happy with staying in the EU. People make the economic argument about staying in the EU because, admittedly, its all they have. The EU will go out, are going out, of their way to ensure our departure doesn't work. Most people who crave EU membership seem to know a bunch of specious reasons for why people like me voted Brexit. I have my own suspicions for why they want to stay in, its about a belief in a growing world community, eventually, which might grow around the successful harmony of the EU. But as the EU grows itself and gains more authority by making laws in Brussels which override the national laws where there is inconsistency, in which case EU law prevails, that's the law! The EU have already flexed their muscles toward countries which have upset them, Poland for example, when they openly renewed demands war reparations from Germany. The Government in Poland is unpopular with the EU commission, because it's like ours, it isn't sufficiently supine. The new government wanted to remove lingering old communist Judges, which hadn't been elected, the EU disagreed and threatened to withhold voting rights and stop funding. What the hell has Poland's internal national administrations got to do with a bloody trading block? Further, Poland is the biggest net receiver of funds from the EU, they had to kow-tow. Hungary, didn't want to take in an un restricted flow of migrants, for many rational and practical reasons, again, the EU invoked article 7 of its constitution, depriving Hungary of some of its membership rights, only some, they didn't want to chuck them out. If you know what I mean. This growing overseeing culture will increase until we have one nationality, European. Then, there will be few to turn to should life within exceed any levels of reasonable cooperation and instead we end up with dead hand control from afar. Again, its where we're headed not where we are necessarily, and it certainly isn't a get rich quick ploy.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:It is far more important than that, if you feel you belong, to your country, if you feel familiar with your country's traditions and customs, its record of past achievements etc. If not, if you feel national identity, sovereignty and sticking up for it is silly, anachronistic and you are indifferent about wherever in the world you end up and would be just as happy being in Greece or.... somewhere else, Iran perhaps, then you might be happy with staying in the EU.


One of the sorest sticking points for me is that I feel, very much, that Brexit and the way it is argued (constant references to the war, or "bulldog spirit!") has robbed me of much of my patriotism.

I was tremendously proud of my country. I loved the UK like no other nation in the world. I remember swelling with pride during 2012, where we were on the world stage for both the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, and the Olympics, and I thought we nailed it. There was a real party/celebratory atmosphere, and everyone seemed to be getting along with everyone else. Twitter, Facebook, and all other social media were still fun, without troll-bot interference. I feel increasingly and increasingly alienated from the country I love. There are only so many times that national newspapers can call people like me saboteurs, traitors, remainiacs, remoaners, leftie loonies, leftards, libtards, champagne socialists, virtue signalling without it having an effect.

I'm sure Brexiters will jump quickly to "gammon" and "racist", but unless I'm mistaken, there have been no "GAMMON RACISTS" headlines in the national press.

I think it's sickening how fat red-faced fat old white men in our leadership that weren't even the glint in the milkman's eye during WWII keep banging on about the war.


I mean, Christ alive, we used to be the nation brave enough to make the curry our national dish. Our culture and identity is *built* on the wonderful cultures of others. Otherwise we'd still be eating tripe, liver, and watery mutton.

Eating a curry doesn't make me Indian, enjoying the Ip Man movies doesn't make me Chinese, eating cheese and drinking wine does not make me French. Driving a Golf doesn't make me German. Being in the EU does not mean we are not British.

And I especially resent that voting to leave was somehow more patriotic than voting to remain - Brexiteers voted on a risk, on a whim, on evidence than doesn't exist. Brexiteers brought feelings to a fact fight. Brexiteers ignored sober forecasts and analysis. Worse, they shouted it down like children. Brexiteers have voted to risk jobs, trade, citizens' status, to reduce our ability to live, love, learn, and move around 28 different countries. Brexiteers have voted for a policy that the politicians "cannot guarantee people won't die because of it". Brexiteers voted for populism and fart-in-the-wind-soundbites. Brexiteers voted for lies.

Brexiteers may not have wanted many or all of the above, but they are what we now face. How on *earth* can that ever be considered patriotic.

Finningley Boy wrote:as the EU grows itself and gains more authority by making laws in Brussels which override the national laws where there is inconsistency, in which case EU law prevails, that's the law!


Which laws have the EU forced upon the UK that you don't like? Which EU laws have been forced upon *you* and how do they affect your life?

People make the economic argument about staying in the EU because, admittedly, its all they have.


It's absolutely not.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Tommy, I've just recorded some examples of EU imposition in my response to IAT then RIAT. In order the prove the EUs ability to over rule all, do you need a case point for every country or something.

FB
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paulish »

I take issue with this idea that EU law is overriding national law. Sure, some sovereignty is ceded largely in areas of trade, employment and environmental law. This is done in order to create a “level playing field” for greater economic cooperation, environmental protection etc. It is also done with full consent. It is quite wrong to characterise this as a wholesale and progressive “land grab” of our laws. (in my view!)

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

For those interested in the subject:

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Tommy wrote:Which laws have the EU forced upon the UK that you don't like? Which EU laws have been forced upon *you* and how do they affect your life?


Finningley Boy wrote:Tommy, I've just recorded some examples of EU imposition in my response to IAT then RIAT. In order the prove the EUs ability to over rule all, do you need a case point for every country or something.

FB


No. You haven't. You also did not answer the question - dare I say because you can't.

You've used examples of Article 7 being used and twisted them to say it was imposing EU law - which was the stance taken by the tabloids - namely those that twisted everything that the EU did to "they're taking away our bendy bananas".etc.etc. Gutter press. When in fact Article 7 was imposed to defend the existing freedoms of that nations citizens.

But as the EU grows itself and gains more authority by making laws in Brussels which override the national laws where there is inconsistency, in which case EU law prevails, that's the law! The EU have already flexed their muscles toward countries which have upset them, Poland for example, when they openly renewed demands war reparations from Germany. The Government in Poland is unpopular with the EU commission, because it's like ours, it isn't sufficiently supine. The new government wanted to remove lingering old communist Judges, which hadn't been elected, the EU disagreed and threatened to withhold voting rights and stop funding. What the hell has Poland's internal national administrations got to do with a bloody trading block?


Article 7 (to date) was not implemented against Poland. The European Commission triggered it however for it to be implemented requires a two thirds majority vote of the European Parliament - that has not happened. In essence, the European Commissions actions are purely a warning at this stage that things are reaching a point where the vote can occur.

This is due to the Polish Government changing the law to put their judges under the direct influence of the ruling Political Party via retirement and punishment policies. They were no longer independent, it was part of a package of 13 laws passed by Poland designed to put a political bias on their judiciary system. The threat was made to protect the people of Poland from a potentially dangerous situation.

This all happened at the time the Polish Government was demanding reparations, so the tabloids linked the two as (I'm going to say it), fake news.

Article 7 was only invoked after 2 years of attempts by the EU to ask them to review the situation. A last resort.

It had nothing with forcing new EU laws through on them as you claim, it was about the protection of freedom.

Would you want Boris Johnson telling the Judge in your court case what ruling or sentence to pass on you? Or would you rather the system was independent and fair based on the evidence at hand?

Hungary, didn't want to take in an un restricted flow of migrants, for many rational and practical reasons, again, the EU invoked article 7 of its constitution, depriving Hungary of some of its membership rights, only some, they didn't want to chuck them out. If you know what I mean.


The EU voted to implement Article 7 against the EU during September 2018 - however as Hungary is challenging this vote things are moving slowly.

Hungary is challenging the validity of the vote in the ECJ (two thirds of those that voted voted to implement but 7% - 48 - MEPs obstained; they argue the law says that Article 7 must be two thirds of all MEPs not just those that voted - if right the vote is less than two thirds in favour). Until the ECJ reach a decision, the EU is reluctant to implement the Article 7 procedure - this is the first time it has ever gone this far and therefore they are rightly treading lightly in order to establish the correct precedents.

Whilst Migrants are involved in why Article 7 has been implemented - the reason has again been twisted by yourself (and the press) - it was about how they were treating the migrants within the country themselves. The Migrant issue is only a small part of why Article 7 was invoked however.

Again, the main reason for it being invoked was in response to a number of changes bought in by the ruling party in Hungary that eroded the freedoms of its people for their own benefit. Indeed, one of the triggers was the independent thinktanks (US based) annual barometer of democratically free nations changing the status of Hungary to "partially free" - the only EU nation to be set at this level. With the laws and rules being invoked in Hungary, the nation risked falling back into a non-democratic and/or dictatorial situation.

Whether you like it or not, member states of the EU sign a treaty upon joining the bloc to uphold democratic freedoms (in addition to Human Rights) - if a nation is seen to breech them then the other EU members can enforce on you to comply via Article 7 - they do also however have to say why you are not complying, confirm those accusations post vote (on going at the moment) and provide suggestions on how to rectify the matter. The nation is not left to its own devices.

Andy

Sources: 1 2 3 4 5 6

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Tommy
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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Finningley Boy wrote:Tommy, I've just recorded some examples of EU imposition in my response to IAT then RIAT. In order the prove the EUs ability to over rule all, do you need a case point for every country or something.

FB


Yeah but I asked you which laws were forced upon the U.K. (there have been some - ironically enough it was me who has been the only one to point them out in this thread) that you don’t like, and which EU laws had been forced upon you and how they affected your life.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Domvickery »

Two laws the EU has forced on me that affects my life is the credit card surcharge and mobile phone roaming charges. Who are they to not charge me more & make me have more money, I’m raging about having to pay less, absolutely fuming
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... p-no-deal-

Michael Gove has repeatedly refused to rule out the possibility that the government could ignore any law passed by parliament to stop a no-deal Brexit and insisted there would be no food shortages if the UK did crash out of the EU on 31 October.


This has to end now.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

The fact that journos are even considering the possibility of the gov ignoring a new statute is an indication as to where we are now and this is re-enforced by Gove's response. Parliament on Tues simply won't have time to include in any draft Bill the penaties for breaking the law. Remarkable times.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

I mean...

Say Corbyn came (unelected) to power in the way Boris has, suspended Parliament so he could get through some Marxist policies or, idk, scrapping Trident, and then his cabinet refused to rule out that they would comply with a law made by parliament, every single Brexiteer and Tory (and considerable others) would be absolutely furious. As would I.

The way the Tories have played around with power since the 2015 election has been disgusting in the extreme. They are unfit for any position of power. Labour are almost the same.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Tommy »

pbeardmore wrote: Remarkable times.


Quite.

Please for the love of god take me back to the second Jag and duck pond expenses “scandal”...

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