Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

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boff180
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by boff180 »

Tommy wrote:The way the Tories have played around with power since the 2015 election has been disgusting in the extreme. They are unfit for any position of power. Labour are almost the same.


Shall I put the paperwork in for UKAR to be made a political party? :lmao:

Tommy as PM
LN Strike Eagle as Deputy PM
Dom as Chancellor
Wissam as Foreign Secretary
Me as Defence Secretary
Skylfash as Minister for Scotland
.etc

I'm certain we would do a better job than these idiots. :lmao:

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

And promptly get accused of nepotism, cronyism, 'jobs for the boys'...…. :whistle:
:tongue:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by SpeedFanatic »

boff180 wrote:
Tommy wrote:The way the Tories have played around with power since the 2015 election has been disgusting in the extreme. They are unfit for any position of power. Labour are almost the same.


Shall I put the paperwork in for UKAR to be made a political party? :lmao:

Tommy as PM
LN Strike Eagle as Deputy PM
Dom as Chancellor
Wissam as Foreign Secretary
Me as Defence Secretary
Skylfash as Minister for Scotland
.etc

I'm certain we would do a better job than these idiots. :lmao:


boff180, I've sent you PM on a different thing, take a look at private messages, please.

vandal
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-crisi ... e-11800263

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-rebels- ... n-11800021

Seems PMBJ is 'too busy' to speak to the Rebels too.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnso ... s-11799602

Edited to add, that if a single Tory MP has the Whip withdrawn then they will go into a Minority Government. Wonder if PMBJ has thought this one through?

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

He ( or his advisors ) almost certainly have & don't care.....
If they scare the rebels into voting the way he wants ( unlikely ) he'll see it as having won.
If they don't & it leads to a minority government, he'll either job on for another month or so, or call a GE which won't take place until after his self-imposed October deadline which means we'll drop out with a 'no deal'.
Effectively a win-win situation for him....and he's already achieved one of his goals by becoming PM.

Anyone who thinks that the likes of BoJo, JRM or Farage have the best interests of the Country or general public at heart are seriously deluded and extremely gullible.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

"Bin the Backstop!"
"No."

"Bin the Backstop!"
"No."

"Bin the Backstop!"
"NO!"

"Err....bin the Backstop...."


PMBJ and his brilliant team haven't quite got the hang of this negotiation lark, then..... :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by vandal »

He doesn't understand Hypocrisy either.

To tell his own MP's that if they vote against him they'll have the Whip removed, yet that's exactly what he done to (former) PMTM for her first and second votes on her Brexit deal.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:"Bin the Backstop!"
"No."

"Bin the Backstop!"
"No."

"Bin the Backstop!"
"NO!"

"Err....bin the Backstop...."


PMBJ and his brilliant team haven't quite got the hang of this negotiation lark, then..... :whistle:

If you are happy with the country being run by an international council of countries then the Backstop makes perfect sense. The alternative, is Northern Ireland is separated from the UK completely and becomes part of Southern Ireland, therefore a ward of the EU. If fear of violence is the only reason the EU and folk like yourself have for clinging stubbornly to the Backstop then you've not reckoned with the turmoil fomented by the opposite side of the argument in NI. Further, this talk of Soft and Hard Borders ignores a more pertinent point, its a National Border!

FB :cuppa:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

For those who still think the EU is a benign common market, read above. No where does it specify only where trading in goods, to ensure standards are maintained.

FB :cuppa:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Domvickery »

Finningley Boy wrote:https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

For those who still think the EU is a benign common market, read above. No where does it specify only where trading in goods, to ensure standards are maintained.

FB :cuppa:


You keep spouting all this nonsense but when you’re asked a direct question (twice) you ignore it, as have all brexiteers.

Just to remind you so you can actually answer the question


Yeah but I asked you which laws were forced upon the U.K. that you don’t like, and which EU laws had been forced upon you and how they affected your life.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Domvickery,

Its in the link, spelt out, EU law takes precedence, that's your answer, I'm sure there are a number of times UK law and the national laws of other countries, I cited two earlier, which everyone has chosen to sweep aside, the imposition article 7, sanctions against both Poland and Hungary. But if I'm to pull one of many, I'm sure, off the top of my head, and it is, I imagine you'll agree a frivolous one but one which you lot would have an opinion on and an example just the same. Here it is; Cast your mind back to 1997,you may recall, about that time that no aircraft would be allowed to overfly the crowd at air shows. This was an EU ruing not a British one, but it was imposed. The Red Arrows at UK airshows had to break with their life long tradition of arriving overhead. It has since been rescinded obviously or at least so In certain cases. But there's an example for you. Another, the release of Jamie Bulger's killers was one where the ECJ overruled the Home Secretary and had them released. I do recall a petition doing the rounds as it was passed to me to sign at work, detailing the level of trauma the kid went through. Smoking in pubs, right or wrong, came from the EU.

FB
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Finningley Boy wrote:If you are happy with the country being run by an international council of countries then the Backstop makes perfect sense. The alternative, is Northern Ireland is separated from the UK completely and becomes part of Southern Ireland, therefore a ward of the EU. If fear of violence is the only reason the EU and folk like yourself have for clinging stubbornly to the Backstop then you've not reckoned with the turmoil fomented by the opposite side of the argument in NI. Further, this talk of Soft and Hard Borders ignores a more pertinent point, its a National Border!

FB :cuppa:


Right.

This "council of countries" is a voluntary, membership organisation run by and for the collective good of all the member nations. Created after the Second World War. You remember the divisions in Europe then, created by the far right? Led to war, millions died. Thousand of Europeans vote against fascism. Some flew Hurricanes and Spitfires.

There is no "Southern Ireland".

You cannot be "ward" of an organisation you voluntarily join. Are you a ward of UKAR? You joined it, you follow the membership rules. You can leave any time. You're not a ward.

If violence in Ireland is the only reason to stop Brexit, then Brexit should be stopped. As someone who lived through the Troubles you should know better. And what is the "opposite side"? Northern Ireland voted to Remain.

Your last point. You should go to Ireland and see how this "national border" operates. No one wishes that to change. Only hard-line zealot British Brexiters.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

To be fair to BJ, he is an expert in PR.........

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49548946

Can you imagine "The Thick of It" style conversations regarding trying to find a dog that ticked all the spin boxes. Hillarious and tragic at the same time.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by boff180 »

I cited two earlier, which everyone has chosen to sweep aside, the imposition article 7, sanctions against both Poland and Hungary


Because your claims about why Article 7 was implemented, particularly with Poland, were shown to be BS.

But if I'm to pull one of many, I'm sure, off the top of my head, and it is, I imagine you'll agree a frivolous one but one which you lot would have an opinion on and an example just the same. Here it is; Cast your mind back to 1997,you may recall, about that time that no aircraft would be allowed to overfly the crowd at air shows. This was an EU ruing not a British one, but it was imposed. The Red Arrows at UK airshows had to break with their life long tradition of arriving overhead. It has since been rescinded obviously or at least so In certain cases. But there's an example for you.


Provide evidence or proof of this claim. As, frankly, evidence shows that your statements just can't be believed.

Another, the release of Jamie Bulger's killers was one where the ECJ overruled the Home Secretary and had them released. I do recall a petition doing the rounds as it was passed to me to sign at work, detailing the level of trauma the kid went through.


That isn't the EU though is it, it is the ECJ ruling on a Human Rights Matter - as it was set up to do.

Smoking in pubs, right or wrong, came from the EU.


It did not. The Council made a recommendation to member states in 2009 to review smoking legislation, it did not force anything on anyone, no member state laws were overridden and no new EU regulations were forced on them. It was a UK decision to implement a ban which came from a White Paper on Public Health in 2004.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Domvickery »

Finningley Boy wrote:Domvickery,

Its in the link, spelt out, EU law takes precedence, that's your answer, I'm sure there are a number of times UK law and the national laws of other countries, I cited two earlier, which everyone has chosen to sweep aside, the imposition article 7, sanctions against both Poland and Hungary. But if I'm to pull one of many, I'm sure, off the top of my head, and it is, I imagine you'll agree a frivolous one but one which you lot would have an opinion on and an example just the same. Here it is; Cast your mind back to 1997,you may recall, about that time that no aircraft would be allowed to overfly the crowd at air shows. This was an EU ruing not a British one, but it was imposed. The Red Arrows at UK airshows had to break with their life long tradition of arriving overhead. It has since been rescinded obviously or at least so In certain cases. But there's an example for you. Another, the release of Jamie Bulger's killers was one where the ECJ overruled the Home Secretary and had them released. I do recall a petition doing the rounds as it was passed to me to sign at work, detailing the level of trauma the kid went through. Smoking in pubs, right or wrong, came from the EU.

FB


Do you want any more barrels to scrape?

How dare the EU force me to breathe in others rancid tar & other smoking based chemicals, how dare they make me not stink like someone who smokes when I in my life have never smoked a full cigarette, I actually miss that stench so much so that I dry my clothes in a smoker topped full of tobacco.

How dare the EU look to keep me safe at an airshow, how many people have died in aircraft ploughing into the crowds at an EU airshow compared to those at Reno or those at Sknyliv. I’m enraged I havent yet died at an airshow.

I wont comment on the Bulger case as thats a too touchy subject

Those laws have zero impact on your life, not one bit, you only use them to try to fit in with your agenda. Shall I give you a second opportunity to answer the question?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Finningley Boy wrote:If you are happy with the country being run by an international council of countries then the Backstop makes perfect sense.


Remind us again who said this recently :
‘I think what we need to do is remove it whole and entire – the backstop – and then work, as Chancellor Merkel says, on the alternative arrangements.
There are abundant solutions which are proffered, which have already been discussed. I don’t think, to be fair, they have so far been very actively proposed over the last three years by the British Government.’


And yet despite him admitting that the onus is on himself to find an alternative, he's done absolutely nothing other than continue his demands to remove the Backstop.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:If you are happy with the country being run by an international council of countries then the Backstop makes perfect sense.


Remind us again who said this recently :
‘I think what we need to do is remove it whole and entire – the backstop – and then work, as Chancellor Merkel says, on the alternative arrangements.
There are abundant solutions which are proffered, which have already been discussed. I don’t think, to be fair, they have so far been very actively proposed over the last three years by the British Government.’


And yet despite him admitting that the onus is on himself to find an alternative, he's done absolutely nothing other than continue his demands to remove the Backstop.


Brevet, anything Theresa May did was against advice, except for Ollie Robbins, a civil servant, and don't get me started on Dominic Cummings. I'm sick to back teeth of all of them. I remain at Heart a Brexiteer, not because I don't want any coloured folk coming over, as is often directly postured by remainers, I simply do not believe that the trouble ahead has to happen because we do not want, or those who agree with me, don't want oversight from Brussels. Please don't ask for any more examples, you have them but choose to ignore or refuse to accept that this is not the end, Brussels will seek to increase its central authority. Am I Boris Johnson fan, no am I a Nigel Farage fan, not really, am I a Corbyn fan, certainly not, I've recently posed a question on pprune, which I'll pose here, just what do you seriously imagine a Corbyn government will do in respect of the national defence and security posture? I rather form the impression, to my utter surprise, that a rather significant number of ukarians are actually going to vote Labour!

Ok that's it!

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

What FPMTM did is irrelevant, though, PMBJ agreed with Merkel & Macron that the onus was on him to look at an alternative plan to the much-maligned 'Backstop', something he's singularly failed to do.
Going act to the EU negotiators and simply demanding they remove the 'Backstop' clause ( in the same pig-headed way he opposed May for doing ) is not negotiating.

As for if Labour come to power with Corbyn as PM....regardless of what his and some of his potential Cabinet think, they are not the whole Party.
One could accuse those making claims about what Labour'd do when they get into Government as pedalling their own version of 'Project Fear' :whistle:
It lso tends to get forgotten/ignored just how much of a myth the 'Conservatives best for the Armed Forces' mantra is & always has been -- they've screwed-up & screwed over the Military just as much - if not more - as Labour & Liberal Governments have.

Vote Labour?
If you oppose the myopic pig-headed Leave policy of PMBJ, you're not exactly going to vote for the Party he's leading, are you.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Domvickery wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:Domvickery,

Its in the link, spelt out, EU law takes precedence, that's your answer, I'm sure there are a number of times UK law and the national laws of other countries, I cited two earlier, which everyone has chosen to sweep aside, the imposition article 7, sanctions against both Poland and Hungary. But if I'm to pull one of many, I'm sure, off the top of my head, and it is, I imagine you'll agree a frivolous one but one which you lot would have an opinion on and an example just the same. Here it is; Cast your mind back to 1997,you may recall, about that time that no aircraft would be allowed to overfly the crowd at air shows. This was an EU ruing not a British one, but it was imposed. The Red Arrows at UK airshows had to break with their life long tradition of arriving overhead. It has since been rescinded obviously or at least so In certain cases. But there's an example for you. Another, the release of Jamie Bulger's killers was one where the ECJ overruled the Home Secretary and had them released. I do recall a petition doing the rounds as it was passed to me to sign at work, detailing the level of trauma the kid went through. Smoking in pubs, right or wrong, came from the EU.

FB


Do you want any more barrels to scrape?

How dare the EU force me to breathe in others rancid tar & other smoking based chemicals, how dare they make me not stink like someone who smokes when I in my life have never smoked a full cigarette, I actually miss that stench so much so that I dry my clothes in a smoker topped full of tobacco.

How dare the EU look to keep me safe at an airshow, how many people have died in aircraft ploughing into the crowds at an EU airshow compared to those at Reno or those at Sknyliv. I’m enraged I havent yet died at an airshow.

I wont comment on the Bulger case as thats a too touchy subject

Those laws have zero impact on your life, not one bit, you only use them to try to fit in with your agenda. Shall I give you a second opportunity to answer the question?


Christ all mighty Dom, its not the laws themselves, its who imposes them! Remember what Ghandi said, better our own bad government than the good government of a foreign power, that's not to say we would been any worse or not perhaps better at governing ourselves, but you shrill posts above prove one thing, you've admitted the EU imposes its laws over the those of the member states where there is a clash of interest. And please, try not to shriek so dramatically to make a point about the dangers of smoking. As for your take on airshows I think you're being extremely disingenuous, I take it since the Red Arrows are allowed to over fly the crowd again you don't go to any air shows now? Did you attend any before the EU stepped in, years after the Ramstein disaster? Huh, just what are you doing on a forum with the title United Kingdom Air Show review.

FB
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by starbuck »

Andrew Neil’s new weekly brexit show starts this week, I think it’s on at 7 pm on bbc2. Should be worth a watch. By far the best political commentator and interviewer we have in this country at the moment imho.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Finningley Boy »

Brevet Cable wrote:What FPMTM did is irrelevant, though, PMBJ agreed with Merkel & Macron that the onus was on him to look at an alternative plan to the much-maligned 'Backstop', something he's singularly failed to do.
Going act to the EU negotiators and simply demanding they remove the 'Backstop' clause ( in the same pig-headed way he opposed May for doing ) is not negotiating.

As for if Labour come to power with Corbyn as PM....regardless of what his and some of his potential Cabinet think, they are not the whole Party.
One could accuse those making claims about what Labour'd do when they get into Government as pedalling their own version of 'Project Fear' :whistle:
It lso tends to get forgotten/ignored just how much of a myth the 'Conservatives best for the Armed Forces' mantra is & always has been -- they've screwed-up & screwed over the Military just as much - if not more - as Labour & Liberal Governments have.

Vote Labour?
If you oppose the myopic pig-headed Leave policy of PMBJ, you're not exactly going to vote for the Party he's leading, are you.

There is no project fear about Corbyn, he has made so many claims publicly damning defence spending and condemning HM Forces, there are his much reported links with the IRA at a time when they mortally engaged with same. Both parties have applied severe cuts to the Armed Forces, Labour usually to prioritise spending on other public services and usually inadvisably, the Tories cut the RAF Fighter Squadrons 1957 to 1961 when Duncan Sandys pursued a greatly ill advised policy of converting to all Missile defence. Thatcher, admittedly cut operational support squadrons and was about to decimate the Navy in 1981, why I can't defend, but the process was halted in time by the Falklands, thereafter defence spending increased, beforehand, Labour under Wilson pursued cuts for public spending endlessly chopping the defence budget without concern.

They ended the East of Suez presence, regretted in some quarter now, they cancelled TSR2 in favour of the F-111 then cancelled it because of the devaluation of the pound sterling, this was to improve exports to enable a much bigger expenditure on public services, NHS, Dole etc. However, imports went up in price, this meant the cancellation of the F-111.

When Wilson returned in 1974, without a moment hesitation, and no other reason he set about slashing defence spending further removing much of Air Support Command. But apart from the time when Michael Foot was wearing his heart on his sleeve over defence and the deterrent, threatening to remove the deterrent. There was the Labour Defence Study Group headed by Ian Mikardo MP, this was a lefty version of the ERG only concerned with fear of the UK's overly robust defence posture as they saw it. They recommended to Callaghan that the Tornado should be scrapped in total and the BAOR be reduced from 55,000 to 30,000, they came to the odd ball conclusion that the defence posture, in conventional terms mostly, was provocative and could spark a nuclear war.

This is typical, not of all in the Labour party admittedly, like all, there a re right and left wing factions, it has always been the right hand faction that have formed the governments, the lentil munching types have led from time to time; George Landsbury (he who in the early 1930s called for the uncompromising disbandment of the Armed Forces in total) and of course M Foot and now, J Corbyn. The last round of defence cuts imposed by a Tory administration was Cameron's and as we know that was at a time when the country faced bankruptcy and the NHS.... they wouldn't dare! One more point, when Heath became PM in 1970, he saved the Fleet Air Arm from complete fixed-wing disbandment, which had been arranged under Healey, thus the Tories allowed the run on of Eagle til 1972 and Ark Royal into the next Labour administration who eventually got rid of it in 1978.

That's twice I've posed the above today for somewhat different reasons.

FB
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by pbeardmore »

Hold on to your hats................

Boris Johnson to make statement outside Number 10 at 6pm

Boris Johnson is going to make a statement outside Number 10 at 6pm, it has been announced.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Typical BoJo.....bloody pointless.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by boff180 »

As for your take on airshows I think you're being extremely disingenuous, I take it since the Red Arrows are allowed to over fly the crowd again you don't go to any air shows now? Did you attend any before the EU stepped in, years after the Ramstein disaster? Huh, just what are you doing on a forum with the title United Kingdom Air Show review.


Again, provide proof of this statement. I've searched and can find diddly squat, so right now I call BS.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Post by Paulish »

Another, the release of Jamie Bulger's killers was one where the ECJ overruled the Home Secretary and had them released. I do recall a petition doing the rounds as it was passed to me to sign at work, detailing the level of trauma the kid went through.


There is an important distinction to be made here. The ECJ is indeed an EU institution which rules largely on trade and commercial disputes and not human rights issues. The ECHR ruled in the case you referred to. This is not an EU institution but predated the formation of the EU by a number of decades. Britain was one of the original signatories to the formation of the ECHR. You have expounded a popular misconception amongst leave supporters.

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