Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 9:50 pm

Therein lies the main problem at the moment.....he's so untrustworthy and unpredictable that stories which would normally be thought of as daft are now more likely to prove to be completely accurate.
As has been said a number of times recently, BoJo seems to think that he's Britain's version of Trump.

It says a lot that by all accounts the last time the Conservative Party self-destructive anywhere near as much as they are now was back in the 1840s when the Corn Law was repealed.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Zoom on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 9:59 pm

I thought John McDonnell's comment that BoJo was a 2 / 3 year old having a tantrum and that Labour were the parent in the room was quite pertinent (even though those particular parents can't currently agree on which way to sit on a toilet seat!)

BoJo has to be the most unstatesmanlike PM since Brown
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 10:10 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:It says a lot that by all accounts the last time the Conservative Party self-destructive anywhere near as much as they are now was back in the 1840s when the Corn Law was repealed.


Yes, you’d have thought JRM would have learnt his lesson the first time wouldn’t you?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 11:21 am

Re the "Dead in a ditch" comment, considering that it looks like there will be a law in place to stop the known route to a hard brexit on the 31st, he is either really stupid to be so certain or he is considering another route ? Newsnight mentioned the option of not nominating a EU commisioner which would result in us being expelled.

Meanwhile.....restoring my faith in the British public...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politi ... -in-morley
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 6:13 pm

Given the latest buzzword bollocks, referring to anyone who opposes a no-deal Brexit as 'The Rebel Alliance', am I the only one with visions of BoJo turning up at the HoC dressed as Darth Helmet & JRM a Grand Moff Tarquin ( YSWIDT ) :lol:

Methinks they need reminding that whenever the Imperialists think they've got them beaten, the plucky Rebels blow up their Death Star..... :tongue:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby FarnboroJohn on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 6:36 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Given the latest buzzword bollocks, referring to anyone who opposes a no-deal Brexit as 'The Rebel Alliance', am I the only one with visions of BoJo turning up at the HoC dressed as Darth Helmet & JRM a Grand Moff Tarquin ( YSWIDT ) :lol:

Methinks they need reminding that whenever the Imperialists think they've got them beaten, the plucky Rebels blow up their Death Star..... :tongue:


Can't wait to see Obi-Wan Corbyn rock up in his robes waving a light sabre! "I felt a great disturbance in the Force.... as if 48% of people were crying out"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 6:42 pm

As long as Abbot doesn't turn up dressed as Leia... :lol:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 7:35 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:As long as Abbot doesn't turn up dressed as Leia... :lol:


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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 8:08 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:As long as Abbot doesn't turn up dressed as Leia... :lol:


You've just destroyed all my memories of Leia in Jabba's Palace :sick:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 6:42 am

BoJo as DV, YaYa Binks more like.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 9:26 pm

Going well then...Amber Rudd quits the conservatives ..
The work and pensions secretary said she no longer believed leaving the EU with a deal was the government's "main objective".
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 10:51 pm

So that's 4 votes ( 100% ) and around 30 MPs he's lost so far and the potential destruction of the Conservative Party, a brilliant record over such a short timeframe....proving to be a bigger disaster than May, Brown & Lord North combined.


Hmm....could it actually all be a Baldrickesque cunning plan to crash out of Brexit & rescind A50, which he can then blame on the pesky Rebel Alliance.... :ninja: :biggrin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Finningley Boy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 7:06 am

So are you looking forward to a Corbyn government then Brevet?

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 7:29 am

Finningley Boy wrote:So are you looking forward to a Corbyn government then Brevet?

FB :cuppa:


I know the question isn’t aimed at me, but hell no. I lack the appropriate oral dexterity to be able to properly set out my feelings about him. He has been one of the most consistent and considerable failings during this whole Brexit process.

*but*

Take a look around, man. Boris is suspending parliament (imagine the uproar from the right wing press if Corbyn did that so he could sneakily axe Trident or something). Boris has had one of, if not *the* worst first week of any prime minister. Boris is incompetent and petulant. He is threatening to ignore laws so he can get his way.

And, as a side note, he is in actual fact an awful public speaker, and his after dinner-type type approach to oration has hit the scrutiny and brick wall of the Commons. When no-one is laughing at his stuttering and faffing in a plummy accent , it quickly looks and feels embarrassing and incompetent.

So, would I be looking forward to a Corbyn government? Christ no. But I look forward to it a hell of a lot more than the unprecedented shower of complete bolycs we currently have (and have had since 2015).

I mean, even to Brexiteers, the Conservatives by now must in their mind have failed Brexit. They’ve had years. They’ve missed two deadlines. They’ve made error at every single opportunity they have had to make an error. When they reached a point where something could have gone wrong in they process, they damn well took the wrong action every single time.

And JRMs posture in the commons has pretty much handed the other parties’ spin-doctors the perfect ammunition for any upcoming GE. They’re gonna milk that image for all it’s worth.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 7:35 am

And, of Boris’ approach; I keep thinking/wondering whether there is another wildcard up Boris/Cummings’ sleeve?

It was hailed as the “genius architect” of Vote Leave, and a *true* Brexiteer coming together to make a balls-to-the-wall strategy to get Brexit done!

And their balls-to-the-wall strategy failed in the most spectacular fashion in the first week. The thread was pulled by Boris himself and now he’s (thankfully metaphorically) naked. He’s lost his majority and purged a few more very talented and high-ranking members of his party, including the symbolic gesture of purging Churchill’s relative, on the 80th anniversary of the outbreak of WWII. Quite the spectacular failing.

I keep thinking, is this it? Is this the Johnson/Cummings masterplan? Because if it is it’s not only dangerous and contemptuous that a PM would even think on those lines, but also pretty pathetic that it was unravelled so spectacularly in the first week.

I guess time will tell.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 9:14 am

To be honest I think this week has gone exactly how they thought it would. 20 odd conservative MPs voted for a brexit strategy that is at odds with the party members who voted for Boris on a two thirds majority with a pledge to get us out by Oct 31come what may. They knew the likes of Grieve, Stewart, Clarke et al were never going to get behind him. Result being that when the GE does come those members will be deselected and replaced by potential MPs who will toe the party line and give him a majority in the house to actually get things done. The gamble will be can he get the public behind him rather than Corbyn.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Finningley Boy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 10:52 am

Starbuck,

Well put.

Tommy,

I would simply say that Boris Johnson represents everything you despise. You've pounced on one or two failing this week. You've no time for his background or any sense of being to the manor born. As for incompetence. There is another way of looking at this. For the record, I also wouldn't place Corbyn or the rest of his front bench, McDonnell, Thornberry, Abbot, Butler anywhere near the reigns of high office, they all have the pungent aroma of Marxist revoluntionary about them.

Talking about awfully put on accents, have you listened the the really faux delivery of Thornberry and Abbot? As for Boris Johnson, I have no strong feelings, not now, not one way or the other about the bloke. I am utterly confused about Brexit but I certainly resent you're patronising line, borrowed perhaps unintentionally, from LBC's James O'Brien that its not my fault, I was lied to. This is a whacking great insult to my integrity rather than the attempt to find common ground as it appears to be intended by James O'Smug one. Johnson had a terrible week, through his attempt to prorogue Parliament, I won't argue about that. I also believe he should sack Cummings.

However, as what he sees, rather understandably, as Parliament's unshiftable position, he probably reached for what he understands to be a legal process. The Benn Bill had no chance of failing with that paradigm of impartiality, John Bercow as speaker. He's been hamstrung by Parliament, it was maybe inadvisable to sack 21 MPs. But some see this as strong leadership. For once he wasn't at all at his best when delivering his speech in Wakefield. There was certainly good reason for that. His mask didn't come off completely as you have accused. He simply wasn't anywhere near his old self. Don't start making comments about not being able to stand the pressure.

Like I say you never liked the man through what comes across as your own 'down to earth' inverted snobbery; ex Eatonian, Tory and Brexiteer. Me personally. I remain on principal a Brexiteer, but I have no idea what should be done for the best at this stage. However, I still maintain, and while it may not always be possible to provide someone like you and Brevet the irrefutable proof of the dangers of the EU, that we are now hostage to our own and the EU's economic performance. I remain convinced this is a Super State in the making, if we were such problem to them, they'd find a way to pay us off. They will never do that because the Commission and their like minded ilk in Governments elsewhere believe absolutely in the programme to centralize Europen affairs, that includes, everything.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 12:24 pm

Finningley Boy wrote:So are you looking forward to a Corbyn government then Brevet?

No.
Next question. :whistle:

OK, to elaborate on that....

Just because people don't like the personality & politics of PMBJ & JRM doesn't make them 'Corbynistas'.
Given a choice between BoJo & JC, though, I'd take a Corbyn-led coalition Government because I don't trust PMBJ to do what's best for the Country ( or anything/one else other than himself, for that matter )

It should be remembered that JC, BJ & JRM all have one thing in common - they spent most of their political lives as back-benchers sniping at & voting against their own Party leadership.
Not forgetting that BJ's terms as LMofL weren't exactly the stellar successes they're made out to be in some quarters.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 12:45 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote:So are you looking forward to a Corbyn government then Brevet?

No.
Next question. :whistle:

OK, to elaborate on that....

Just because people don't like the personality & politics of PMBJ & JRM doesn't make them 'Corbynistas'.
Given a choice between BoJo & JC, though, I'd take a Corbyn-led coalition Government because I don't trust PMBJ to do what's best for the Country ( or anything/one else other than himself, for that matter )

It should be remembered that JC, BJ & JRM all have one thing in common - they spent most of their political lives as back-benchers sniping at & voting against their own Party leadership.
Not forgetting that BJ's terms as LMofL weren't exactly the stellar successes they're made out to be in some quarters.

LMofL ? When did that happen ? Did he do a panto season as Dick Whittington? Don’t you mean MoL?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 1:05 pm

Meh! You knew what I meant! :tongue2:
And he's been doing his panto season as dick for the past couple of months :biggrin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 1:21 pm

Finningley Boy wrote:I would simply say that Boris Johnson represents everything you despise. You've pounced on one or two failing this week. You've no time for his background or any sense of being to the manor born.


You can say it all you like, simply or otherwise, but that's not what I've criticised him for. Read and respond to what I say, not some between-the-lines thing that doesn't exist.

I despise a great many people and things, but I do not begrudge people of their backgrounds or upbringing.

Finningley Boy wrote:As for incompetence. There is another way of looking at this. For the record, I also wouldn't place Corbyn or the rest of his front bench, McDonnell, Thornberry, Abbot, Butler anywhere near the reigns of high office, they all have the pungent aroma of Marxist revoluntionary about them.


Standard whataboutery - you're deflecting criticism of Johnson by saying "what about the Labour lot!" I think the Marxist revoluntionary (.sic) line is a bit much, but I'm probably closer to your view than theirs. I think they are a terrifying spectacle, and I could never ever countenance myself as a Labour voter under their guises.

*but* (again) for you to take such issue with the competence of Labour and then gloss over Johnson's failings (which have been rank and multiple) is quite one-sided.

Labour have their own issues, which all deserve their own (considerable) criticism and cross-examination, but that doesn't absolve the Tory failings, and they're the ones in government right now, making the decisions, so the spotlight is on them.

Finningley Boy wrote:...I certainly resent you're patronising line


*your. :kiss:

Seriously, though, which parts of my posts above are patronising?

Finningley Boy wrote:borrowed perhaps unintentionally, from LBC's James O'Brien that its not my fault, I was lied to. This is a whacking great insult to my integrity


Well, ok, but the alternative is that I hold you intentionally responsible for this mess. The alternative is that I blame you directly. You *intended* this shower of crap and gridlock and awfulness. I'm not sure that's an option you want to be credited with.

Which one do you want? Because if you really *really* did intended this god-awful mess, then I think that you're an utterly despicable human being.

I don't think you did intend to be here, based on your reasonable assertion that you have no idea what to do next, but the ball's in your court on that one.

And people who voted to leave were lied to. That's a fact. Nigel Farage admitted it the very next day after the vote. And lies upon lies upon lies have tumbled out since then.

I can't help you on this one - you can chose how you want it to be.

Finningley Boy wrote:But some see this as strong leadership.


It's precisely the opposite. It's weakness. It's an inability to convene, discuss, meet, talk to, or do anything with people who hold different views to him. It's tin-pot dictatorship. It's petulance and stubbornness. It's the exact and clear opposite of what strong leadership is. Anyone who thinks otherwise has either never been in a true position of power, or is themselves an awful leader.

Finningley Boy wrote:Don't start making comments about not being able to stand the pressure.


a) I didn't, and b) why can't I? I don't owe him a period of grace. If he wants people not to make those accusations, then he should prove those assertions wrong.

Finningley Boy wrote:Like I say you never liked the man through what comes across as your own 'down to earth' inverted snobbery; ex Eatonian, Tory and Brexiteer.


"inverted snobbery"? I don't know what you mean. Unless perhaps you think me some Welsh-accented, coal-mining-heritage comprehensive-educated trade-union-loving type of person?

I'm not. I'm from Boris' ilk. I was privately-educated. I was taught Latin. I used to row and play rugger against Eton. I read law under scholarship at university. I spent my summers at Henley, or shooting game with some friends. I've attended black-tie parties on Horseguards Parade. I work a white-collar job. I enjoy fine wines and classical music. I'm from a natural Tory background. I love reading poetry and prose. I actually enjoyed reading Shakespeare (especially The Scottish Play and Othello).

I'm from exactly the same cut as Boris Johnson. I don't dislike him because of his life or upbringing - I care not a jot about that. I dislike him because he is not competent.

I'm one of Dominic Grieve's biggest fans in this thread - he's a fantastic Tory. A keen mind, and a devastating advocate. He was also privately educated and of similar Oxbridge ilk.

Finningley Boy wrote:and while it may not always be possible to provide someone like you and Brevet the irrefutable proof of the dangers of the EU ... I remain convinced this is a Super State in the making


This is it in a nutshell, though. How are you "convinced" if you have zero evidence to prove it? You can be "suspicious" of that outcome, but to be convinced means you're dead-locked on this idea, and yet you have nothing to be able to prove it. And what you do provide is (with respect) either wrong, or gets picked apart with a 5 minute by either basic knowledge about the EU or a quick Google.

So what "convinced" you?

I put it to you, FB, that you became suspicious of the EU Superstate theory, maybe you saw some pro-Leave spin about it, and you hardened your viewpoint because to admit that you were wrong or "actually, I don't know why I believe that" feels weak to you. But it's not weak at all. What is weak is to become so entrenched in your view that you're unable to accept anything that might be against it.

Maybe it's not, IDK, but the reason no Brexiteers can ever tell me a single law (even if I law those laws out on a plate) that they don't like or how the EU will improve their lives, or a single (let alone multiple) credible reasons for leaving is because they didn't like the EU based on some crappy but relentless two-decade "the EU want to take our bendy bananas!" narrative that really has no basis in fact or evidence. It's just untrue.

But of course, no-one wants to admit that they were convinced by that, so they entrench and entrench and entrench.

It's important to challenge one's own beliefs. To grill oneself. "Why do I believe this so strongly - what's the basis?" Because if you don't check your own opinions from time to time, the rest of the world will.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Finningley Boy on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 3:26 pm

Tommy,

Could you elaborate a bit more please. :biggrin:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 8:19 pm

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 7:07 am

People who make our laws asking the PM to break our laws:



For the Justice Secretary to have to remind MPs not to break the law is staggering:



The Conservative Party is not fit to govern. This stuff isn’t normal and certainly isn’t OK.
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