Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 8:06 am

I read that story yesterday, but to me that all has the whiff of a plant about it. It was all intended to be leaked IMO as it’s very much “on message” and features some of their buzzwords. It feels like a party political broadcast, not a chat.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 7:38 pm

Looking forward to reading the correspondence from BoJo on suspending parliament and no-deal Brexit.

Especially as Dominic Grieve is claiming he has seen correspondence showing BoJo has "mislead" the Queen deliberately...………
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 7:46 pm

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 5:27 am

It appears the Government are in denial of the new Bill, this response was published at 2am, well after it received Royal Assent.....

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157

Prorogation is a prerogative Act of the Crown, exercised on the advice of Ministers. We must respect the referendum result and the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 8:39 am

Regardless of its effect on democracy, or the country at large - Boris breaking the law and ending up in prison would be rather marvellous for his career.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 11:16 am

To be honest, I don't know who were the most pathetic & puerile last night....the MPs holding up the 'Silenced' signs, the ones trying to stop the Speaker from leaving the HoC, the sulky Conservative MPs who wouldn't applaud the Speaker ( which has been the convention even if you didn't agree with them ) or the ones who wouldn't return to the HoC after going to the HoL. :roll:
Last edited by Brevet Cable on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 11:17 am

MiG_Eater wrote:Regardless of its effect on democracy, or the country at large - Boris breaking the law and ending up in prison would be rather marvellous for his career.


Like Tommy Robinson, his supporters will claim he's being ganged up on by the Establishment and persecuted for his beliefs!

When do we get to reset the Politics button and get back to a world of sense?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 2:53 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49651116

Awaits the usual 'Project Fear' bollocks.... :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 3:23 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49651116

Awaits the usual 'Project Fear' bollocks.... :whistle:


To be fair we are only just getting over the impact of George Osborne's post-Brexit emergency budget... :tongue:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 3:56 pm

I'm just surprised that the rabid pro-Leavers haven't tried claiming the PIRA/CIRA/NIRA ( or whatever they're calling themselves this week ) are pro-Remain and that their recent actions are really a plot to scare HMG into rescinding A50 :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 4:57 pm

This is why we can’t have nice things:



Also kind of wrecks the “EU making our laws!” Argument, doesn’t it. You can’t get high and mighty about some laws you can’t even name made by the EU if you’re happy for the PM to break our own laws.

What pathetic incorrigible scumbags.

Stick that in the dustbin, along with Parliamentary sovereignty, democracy, £350m to the NHS, Turkey joining, protect the British farms and fishermen, we hold all the cards, sunlit uplands, zero downsides...

Brexit always was the real project fear. The only people who won’t admit it are those who are scared to admit that they were wrong.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Domvickery on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 5:58 pm

But, but, the army, what about the army, WONT ANYONE THINK OF THE ARMY
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 6:02 am

Domvickery wrote:But, but, the army, what about the army, WONT ANYONE THINK OF THE ARMY


Look, Dom, we're all going to Hell in a handcart. Can we at least do it with proper punctuation? :lol:

That was a joke by the way...
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:28 am

Now it could get interesting.....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855
Boris Johnson’s suspension of the UK Parliament is unlawful, Scotland’s highest civil court has ruled.

A panel of three judges at the Court of Session found in favour of a cross-party group of politicians who were challenging the prime minister's move.
The decision overturns an earlier ruling from the court, which said last week Mr Johnson had not broken the law.

But it will not immediately affect the current suspension of Parliament, which started in the early hours of Tuesday.
This is because no order has been given by the court to cancel the suspension ahead of a full hearing at the Supreme Court which starts on Tuesday of next week.

In a summary of their findings, the Court of Session judges said that the suspension of Parliament was motivated by a desire to "stymy Parliament".
They added: "The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the Prime Minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect."
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:48 am

I posted something last week re the Queen being put in a hard poistion and this decision confirms that

JRM insisted that everything was just routine but the courts have ruled that this was not true. Did JRM lie to the Queen? effectively, thats what today's decision implies.

"All routine, maam. Sign here, here and here."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHlfMyQbiNs

Boris Johnson should resign if he has misled Queen about reasons for prorogation, says Dominic Grieve
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:26 pm



I mean.... how are Brexiteers *not* up in arms about this?

Just imagine, imagine, if it was the other way around.

Supreme Court will be an interesting one. I suspect that they’ll find for the other way. But until that judgment is received, it is now a fact that Boris lied to the Queen. What a bastard.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:52 pm

Not sure how your define "Brexiteers" . Again, we have seen this so many times, people putting people into huge blocks and making claims on their behalf. Some Brexiteers may be up in arms, some not. I would not dare to say that they are all thinking one thing or all thinking another.

The PM and the Gov illegally shutting down Parliament is huge and, personally, I'm very much up in arms. The whole country should be. It's a national disgrace. This is nothing to do with Brexit (it's about the personal integrity of our PM - or lack of it) and to confuse the issues is simply wrong. I think he will be gone within two weeks. The upside is that we have witnessed that the "checks and balances" within our constitution are operating correctly. IMHO the SC will uphold today's decision.

who next? Hunt?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 1:02 pm

In a normal world, misleading the monarch would result in a speedy resignation. (And a quick trip to the Tower).

Not from these shameless clowns though.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 1:15 pm

The irony is that, for many of those who voted for BJ to lead their party (and therefore, their country), they would be very traditional and patriotic. "Queen and Country" would be right in the centre of their core values. So BJ has perhaps done the one thing that they won't be able to forgive him for.

Brexit at any cost? You can do anything you want....apart from lie to the Queen.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 1:49 pm

Don't forget, though, that the only core value PMBJ has is himself.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:15 pm

Although I am in favour of our Parliamentary democracy, direct democracy should always take precedence when it is used. The entire function of a parliament is to represent the people, and when parliament disagrees with a nationwide vote, it is obvious that it is the electorate's voice that should be listened to. After all, they are our representatives, not our babysitters.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:27 pm

Parliament did not disagree with the nationwide vote. Article 50 was triggered in the Commons with 498 MPs voting for it.

They can't agree on the "how" we leave and we have never been asked that. The "if" and the "how" seem to be getting confused in many eyes.

It also crossed my mind the BJ has already proved a failure in his early attempts at campaigning. If the SC goes against him, how many of the cabinet and Conservative MPs will be lining up to support him? or "throw him under the bus" (deflecting from other people's roles in this farce) and quickly select a more skilled campaigner (tough pickings though) and also, as a gesture, give back the whip to Ken C etc and get Ruth back? as leader. Non of the other cabinet members have gone down the "dead in the ditch" line so they have the flexibility to ask for an extension (as required by law)

effectively, try to wipe the Boris era away and "reset" to something resembling normal?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:43 pm

Anyone who wants to 'take no deal off the table' is de facto voting for us to remain. There is absolutely no incentive for the EU to negotiate a good deal with us if they know we're not leaving without a deal. They know that all they need to do is give us an unacceptable deal and Brexit will be delayed and delayed and delayed - all the while the EU continues receiving our membership payments.

Whatever parliament says, a large group of them are acting a hell of a lot like they will do all they can to thwart Brexit.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 4:25 pm

Because having 'no-deal' still as an option is working out really well so far......oh, hang on, the one thing FPMTM & TMBJ haven't bothered with is negotiations -- TM just made demands & BJ hasn't done anything ( other than tell lies about what he is doing )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 5:07 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:The entire function of a parliament is to represent the people, and when parliament disagrees with a nationwide vote, it is obvious that it is the electorate's voice that should be listened to.


No!

That’s not the entire function of Parliament at all! The very opposite.

This is the most basic misunderstanding of British politics.

Politicians are not there to “do what we say”.

Politicians, in theory, are supposed to be elected as representatives, not delegates. You misunderstand what “representatives” means

It is the duty, nay obligation, of politicians to act on our behalf and in our best interests. Our best interests are not the same as what we tell them they are in the same way that acting in the best interests of a child is causing them to be upset by not giving in to their demands of sweets and junk food because, upset though they may be, their best interest is not to have rotten teeth or diabetes.

If an entire constituency voted for ever member to, idk, inject heroin into their veins, or paint every inch of the constituency blue, or to spend millions of pounds on a giant chocolate teapot, a politician is not there to say “oh well, that’s the “will of the people”, better get on with it” and comply. Their job is to say “are you guys completely and utterly mad? I don’t care that you all want to do it. It’s an awful idea and will be to all of your detriment.”

This is A-level politics (which I never studied Tbf).

So no, it’s not “the people should take precedence over MPs”. It’s the very opposite.

MiG_Eater wrote:Anyone who wants to 'take no deal off the table' is de facto voting for us to remain. There is absolutely no incentive for the EU to negotiate a good deal with us if they know we're not leaving without a deal.


This is also considerably wrong.

Can we stop with the useless poker analogies? It didn’t work during the campaign, it didn’t work with Theresa May, it doesn’t work now.

This is international trade negotiations. These people (well, the European ones so far) are leagues ahead of “poker” intellectually and morally. This is complex, multi-faceted stuff.

It’s utterly stupid to keep talking about “poker”. Because so far all Britain has done is play poker, and it’s lost every single hand. It can barely afford the blind.
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