Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby maltwoser on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 6:53 am

Apologies Iain, but it's easy to miss the humour if you don't know the originator's point of view, and it's only the written word.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 7:40 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49706643

It will be interesting to see how this translates into votes at the next GE. Prior to getting into bed with the Tories the Lib Dems were on about 22% of the vote but that collapsed to nearer 8% when the coalition was announced. Given that they are so far the only (major) party to have a categorically anti-Brexit stance they would seem to be the only option for Remainers.

Previously the Lib Dems used to do quite well in voter percentage but due to them having no 'heartland' and their votes being spread evenly over the country it made it difficult in a 'first past the post' system for them to turn that into winning seats. But will Remainers who feel they aren't represented by Labour or the Tories be prepared to treat the next GE as a unofficial second referendum and vote Lib Dem in an attempt to kill Brexit?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 9:27 am

It's a huge gamble and I'm not sure what they are playing at. Given Labour's present stance, it's perfectly possible that this policy may split the "leave/peoples vote" movement and, in some seats, allow the cons to win.

In terms of political infuence and bringing lib values into the cabinet (on all issues), 30 seats and part of a coalition is better than 60 seats - all on the back bench. JS has a genuine chance re the role of deputy PM but she may have blow that already
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 11:48 am

They've spending a lot of time during their conference slagging off Labour in general and Corbyn in particular.
Swinson has said they won't form a Government with Labour.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 1:54 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49706643

But will Remainers who feel they aren't represented by Labour or the Tories be prepared to treat the next GE as a unofficial second referendum and vote Lib Dem in an attempt to kill Brexit?


Let's bloody well hope so... :up:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 2:59 pm

Treating the GE as a referendum makes little sense as one is a pure percentage vote of the voters whilst a GE is first past the post re majority in the commons,

Libs could see a huge boost in voting figures but it may not translate into seats. I can already see their leader claim a moral victory with a much bigger percentage of the vote (due to their brexit policy) but it will mean nothing in the Commons.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 3:47 pm

Are we at war with Luxembourg?

Will this affect RIAT?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 5:06 pm

All went absolutely swimmingly again today, then.
Is he really as deluded as he acts?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 6:14 pm

What a pathetic scumbag of an unelected leader we have.

Guess we’ll have to wait and see if the Tories still stick to that crappy “Corbyn is a chicken” line.

Curse him. Curse him that every time he uses public transport he is delayed and then has to sit next to a person with bad BO on a hot day.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 8:41 pm

In answer to the above 3 posts as I haven’t worked out how to quote multiple posts;
Hope not.
The E-3 never turns up anyway.
Yes
Scumbag is probably not parliamentary language but no arguments from me on that idea.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 6:36 am

Tommy wrote:Guess we’ll have to wait and see if the Tories still stick to that crappy “Corbyn is a chicken” line.

Unlike PMBJ's Hulk-like actions.
Hmm, hang on, I can't recall The Hulk running away and hiding from a bunch of protesters :whistle:

His interview with Laura Kuenssberg yesterday was pure farce and utterly cringeworthy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49717554
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 7:29 am

iainpeden wrote:Scumbag is probably not parliamentary language


Probably. But i suppose it doesn’t matter much whether it is or isn’t, given the scumbag suspended it.

Boris must’ve jumped into the gene pool whilst the lifeguard was looking the other way.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 8:02 am

for those with time on their hands, the Supreme Court is being live streamed today:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 8:15 am

The Lib-Dems are living in some sort of fantasy land if they think that they are ever going to form a majority government.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 8:34 am

From some of the speeches and interviews, I get the impression that their main goal is to beat Labour.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 8:39 am

Brevet Cable wrote:From some of the speeches and interviews, I get the impression that their main goal is to beat Labour.


Also fantasy land. I seem to remember at one election their leader at the time telling them to 'return to your constituencies and prepare for government!' :grin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 9:23 am

Well we know via the student fees issue that the Libs "have form" in this area. So the manifesto pledge of remain is on the assumption that they are governing (dream on) and a coalition scenario gives them some more flexibility.

I find it hard to see how JS would turn down the opportunity of being deputy PM whilst then allowing the Consernatives to be the largest single party?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 10:10 am

Clegg pretty much destroyed the Party when he went into coalition with Ca Moron's Government, so it would be a supreme act of stupidity & political suicide for JS to do so, especially given their opposing stances on Brexit.
More likely their thinking is that if they get enough votes they can form a Coalition Government with Labour ( and possibly the ScotNats, Greens & Plaid ) but with themselves as the main Party.

And with regards the Supreme Court hearing, it's also being covered live on BBC News & Sky News.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:15 pm

pbeardmore wrote:for those with time on their hands, the Supreme Court is being live streamed today:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html


Just as an aside, quite unlike Parliament, the Supreme Court live stream will show a professional clashing of some of the world’s finest minds.

The people in that room will be fiercely arguing their own submissions in a way that sounds like a conversation.

For a law geek like me, it’s a pinnacle that few of us will ever reach.

Granted the subject is dull as a butter knife, but the event itself is terrifying in its competence and logic, and all done with quiet humbleness and a noticeable absence of chest-beating.

If you can spare a few minutes (hours!) to watch these geniuses at work, it’s worth it to see the true masters of the art at play.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:32 pm

That would be the world's finest minds, geniuses & true masters who didn't bring/supply all the paperwork they needed, then..... :whistle: :wink:
:lol:

Have to admit, though, that Pannick in particular is showing how arguments should be conducted.

And I see that PMBJ has failed to supply a Witness Statement as to why he advised the Queen to prorogue Parliament.
Could that be - as has been cynically hinted - because it was a lie.....
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:57 pm

Worlds’ finest minds - not librarians.

Perhaps some context might assist; if the Supreme Court finds Boris’ actions unlawful, he may still just prorogue again, but do so with better or more focused reasoning.

A witness statement is a sworn statement. They aren’t to be made lightly. I suspect in this instance, if Boris is found to have been unlawful, it’s better to have been found to be so on the basis of a lack of evidence, than to have revealed the true, more cynical, reason in a statement, and just prorogue Parliament again once the judgment is out.

I cannot think of any other reason for Boris’ (or anyone in government) failure to provide it. Which, I suppose, in and of itself is a pretty bad indictment of both the true reason for the suspension, and of the Government’s view of its chances of success
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:06 pm

If BJ provided a statement, then they could call him is a witness. The media would have a field day and we know that he gets flustered under such pressures. A good barrister would have a field day. One slip of the tongue from BJ and the whole case is lost.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:21 pm

Tommy wrote:....I suspect in this instance, if Boris is found to have been unlawful, it’s better to have been found to be so on the basis of a lack of evidence

Which was not so subtly insinuated by Pannick a couple of times.

It shouldn't be forgotten that today doesn't just see the Supreme Court considering the appeal over 'Gina Miller' challenge to the prorogation, it also sees the Government's appeal against the ruling in the Scottish Court's ruling.
Wonder how it works if both appeals are successful?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:28 pm

Lady Hale is due to retire from Heading the SC soon. It should not make any difference but, in the real World, it makes it easier for her to make a momentous/huge decision and then retire to ...........(fill in the blanks)

it speaks volumes for the govs tactics that they are seeking to claim that it is beyond the juristiction of the court rather than basing their case on actual facts. IF the SC decides it is within their juristiction, then its game over for BJ IMHO

Gov barrister really struggling at the moment IMHO (his pauses are so long, I keep thinking that the stream has died), the Miller rep much more positive and engaging this morning
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm

AlexC wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:From some of the speeches and interviews, I get the impression that their main goal is to beat Labour.


Also fantasy land. I seem to remember at one election their leader at the time telling them to 'return to your constituencies and prepare for government!' :grin:


pbeardmore wrote:Well we know via the student fees issue that the Libs "have form" in this area. So the manifesto pledge of remain is on the assumption that they are governing (dream on) and a coalition scenario gives them some more flexibility.

I find it hard to see how JS would turn down the opportunity of being deputy PM whilst then allowing the Consernatives to be the largest single party?


Of course they are doing what they can to win a majority.

And of course Swinson is going to say that that is what they're trying to do. It would be a pretty stupid thing to say otherwise.

What on earth else would you expect her to say? "We're really going to try very hard indeed to come third and hopefully prop up the other lot, like we did so successfully last time?"

Good for her for saying it and, let's be brutally honest here, who would you rather have as PM at this moment in time - Swinson, Uncle Jeremy, or some stupid idiot who thinks he can BS his way out of everything?

I mean really, of the main party leaders who would make the best PM?
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