Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 4:35 pm

As an aside, I'm saddened by the Government's rhetoric around Freedom of Movement. "Finally, we can put an end to FoM" etc.

I'd implore anyone to read the Migration Advisory Committee's report on the impact of EEA migration in the UK. It assesses labour market impacts, investment, finance, community impact, house prices and a raft of other areas when making its assessment. It's 140 pages but the summary in section 7 gives a fine précis. Yes, I've read the whole thing (a hazard of my day job). I can't recall seeing its extensive analysis quoted in the press, but I might be wrong. In any case, it's worth a read.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migration-advisory-committee-mac-report-eea-migration

Some key summary points:

Overall no evidence that EEA migration has reduced employment opportunities for UK-born on average. Some evidence that migration reduces employment and raises unemployment of some groups (e.g. the young and less well-educated) but subject to significant uncertainty.

Overall no evidence that EEA migration has reduced wages for UK-born workers on average. Some evidence that migration has reduced earnings growth for the lower-paid and raised it for the higher-paid, but again these findings are subject to uncertainty.

High-skilled immigrants increase innovation.

No evidence that migration has reduced the training opportunities of the UK-born.

EEA migrants, especially those from EU13+, pay more in taxes than they receive in welfare benefits and consume in public services.

EEA migrants make a larger contribution both in terms of money and work to the NHS than they receive in health services. No evidence that migration has reduced the quality of healthcare.

Migrants or the children of migrants make up an increasing proportion of the school-age population. EEA migrants are a smaller proportion of workers than students in primary and secondary education but a higher proportion in higher education. Children with English as an additional language academically out-perform children with English as first language. No evidence that migration has reduced the educational attainment of other children or the choice of schools.

No evidence that migration affects the overall level of crime.

The evidence presented in this report suggest that despite the significant scale of migration from EU countries over the past 15 years, the overall economic impacts have been relatively small with the main effect being an increase in population. EEA migration as a whole has not harmed the existing resident population overall, as has been claimed by some, but also has not had the significant benefit claimed by others. This does not mean that the impact of all migrants is the same.
Elliott Marsh

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 4:40 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining. I can't say for sure but I'm reasonable certain that there are racists of other colour in this country. 9/11 the killing of Lee Rigby, Manchester bombing, need I go on.


What have any of those attacks got to do with race?
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 4:54 pm

Because some people and the law-makers have for a number of years confused race with religion ( in the case of the law-makers, deliberately so )

Mooshie1956 wrote:Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining.

That's OK, then..the Welsh, Scottish & Northern Irish people can't be classed as far-right white-supremacists, then.... :whistle:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:13 pm

Is it racist for a person to be concerned about the high level of current and recent immigration? Serous question.
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
User avatar
AlexC

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:21 pm

Depends on what the "concern" is.

If you're concerned at housing, jobs, NHS, general increase in numbers for a system that can't take them, then I'd say no.

If it's "concerning" because you don't like foreign people, or get insecure when you hear foreign languages on a train, or you don't like Eastern European people, or a particular group, then I would say yes.

For too long racists got and get away with hiding behind "legitimate concerns" and very few people actually asking what those concerns were.

I'm quite sure it has been proven time and again that immigration is not only beneficial to Britain in many significant ways, but is essential.

So when those "concerns" that aren't racist are disproven, and racist ones are the only ones left, it begins to look a bit thin on the ground.

But there we are. Whichever side of the coin people are on, nobody is interested in hearing the other side. People are more interested in shouting their own opinions and their need to be "right" than considering anything else.
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:26 pm

I hasten to add that I consider it profound idiocy to accuse all leavers of being racist morons.

Caveated with the fact that no-one seems to disagree with the common "not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers" point. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I do think it's a pretty alarming moral failure for anyone allow themselves to be on the same side of an argument that all the racists find themselves on. Regardless of whether you are or aren't one. That's usually a pretty decent red flag that history won't remember you very well.
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:37 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:The definitions of words are always changing but I have literally never heard of racism being used in that way (apart from ignorant people who describe, for instance, Islam as a race).

The definition after a quick google is as follows.

...


Well perhaps it's more pertinent to use the Equality Act definition, given that that's the enforceable legislation, as the helpful explanation states:

In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality. For example, you may have Chinese national origins and be living in Britain with a British passport

...

A racial group can be made up of two or more distinct racial groups, for example black Britons, British Asians, British Sikhs, British Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers.

You may be discriminated against because of one or more aspects of your race, for example people born in Britain to Jamaican parents could be discriminated against because they are British citizens, or because of their Jamaican national origins.
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:40 pm

Tommy wrote:Depends on what the "concern" is.

If you're concerned at housing, jobs, NHS, general increase in numbers for a system that can't take them, then I'd say no.

If it's "concerning" because you don't like foreign people, or get insecure when you hear foreign languages on a train, or you don't like Eastern European people, or a particular group, then I would say yes.



I agree, and the irony there is that the NHS, which people may be concerned about due to immigration, is struggling more due to staff shortages than money shortages, since the brexit vote. In fact, its now facing a staffing crisis. Go into any hospital, or care home, or any health and social care setting and it would be clear that is is those from overseas that keep them going. Especially the (soon to be ex) free movement countries.

It is without doubt that the 'foreign people taking our jobs and sponging off our taxes' brigade were mobilised for the leave cause. Without that, they would not have won. And its a complete fallacy. Because the reality is, without these people we will have many organisations crippled. No resources.

Before we even get onto the effect on trade, and the fact that internationally active companies are already leaving these shores in their droves.

Its an unmitigated disaster, and just as I won't be too ashamed to change my mind if I realised I'd made a mistake, I'm sure there are many in this country now that are starting to see the dreadful economic impact of this and regret their vote. Its not too late. Not that I suspect for a moment that another referendum, or election, will happen, more's the pity.

I do pity Theresa May, she's stuck between a rock and a hard place. 'Deliver brexit in a way that doesn't harm the economy'. That's impossible.
its time to kick the tyres and light the fires

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151934326@N08/albums
User avatar
Wrexham Mackem
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:44 pm

Tommy wrote:If you're concerned at housing, jobs, NHS, general increase in numbers for a system that can't take them, then I'd say no.


I'd say that those are the issues that most people that have any concerns would mention. I live in an almost totally white area, but I would not be concerned if a black or asian family for example moved in next door, I'd hope to get on with them as well as I do with my current neighbours.
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
User avatar
AlexC

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:45 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining. I can't say for sure but I'm reasonable certain that there are racists of other colour in this country. 9/11 the killing of Lee Rigby, Manchester bombing, need I go on.


What have any of those attacks got to do with race?



Muslim attaking Christian. If a white person attacks a mosic and it's racially motivated then an attack by a muslim on our way of life has to be classed the same, or am I being Politically incorrect. And with that I think this should have a line drawn under it now, as this could get out of hand.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:50 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Because some people and the law-makers have for a number of years confused race with religion ( in the case of the law-makers, deliberately so )

Mooshie1956 wrote:Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining.

That's OK, then..the Welsh, Scottish & Northern Irish people can't be classed as far-right white-supremacists, then.... :whistle:


baah +1 to you. I write or say English, but only because it feels natural, although I should really write British. :sad:
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 5:51 pm

AlexC wrote:
Tommy wrote:If you're concerned at housing, jobs, NHS, general increase in numbers for a system that can't take them, then I'd say no.


I'd say that those are the issues that most people that have any concerns would mention. I live in an almost totally white area, but I would not be concerned if a black or asian family for example moved in next door, I'd hope to get on with them as well as I do with my current neighbours.


Entirely fair. But what happens if those issues are proven not to be actual issues? Or even the reverse being true and immigration being essential?
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff


Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 6:05 pm

I'd say that some level of immigration is essential, but it needs to be managed, free movement as it apply's now is not sustainable, and I'm sure that was one of the major reasons why people voted leave. I'd rather have Indian doctors coming to live and work here then Romanian hand car washers for instance.
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
User avatar
AlexC

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 6:41 pm

AlexC wrote:I'd say that some level of immigration is essential, but it needs to be managed, free movement as it apply's now is not sustainable, and I'm sure that was one of the major reasons why people voted leave. I'd rather have Indian doctors coming to live and work here then Romanian hand car washers for instance.


That's the thing though - not all (actually far far from it) european migrants are in menial jobs. As much as those menial jobs are vital to the UK economy, I know a couple originally from Poland who are architects, a german aerospace engineer, numerous French ones, a Polish dentist, a care worker from Cyprus.. just the people I've come across and there are so many more. All lovely people and great at their jobs. And people like them won't come here any more. And for sure, many of those vital vacancies at both ends of the spectrum will go unfilled. And that will hit our economy.

Those people will follow a path of lesser resistance into other European partner nations. Who would want to come here anyway after we've sent out such a 'you're not welcome here' message.

I actually know more Brits living and working in Europe, than I personally know Europeans working here. But hey, nobody thought of them did they?
its time to kick the tyres and light the fires

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151934326@N08/albums
User avatar
Wrexham Mackem
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Jimbo27 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 7:27 pm

I voted remain, partly because I thought that a tidy exit was never going to be achievable, hence I'm not that surprised about current events. I was about 60-40 in favour of remain, so there were elements of the leave campaign that I sympathised with. I know that many of my friends voted out, I don't agree with them but I'm confident they voted that way for genuine reasons. What I do believe though is that the votes of people who were motivated by racism probably did all land on the out side, and because the vote was so close it may very well have been those votes that decided the issue. I just can't see the bonehead element of our communities being split down the middle on this issue.
Jimbo27

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby lambo17841 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm

Correct me if wrong but there is nothing to stop people coming from Europe to Ireland travel to the North with no border checks and a ferry to England,so much for stopping freedom of movement.

John
lambo17841

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 7:54 pm

Tommy wrote:Caveated with the fact that no-one seems to disagree with the common "not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers" point.

:wave:
Does that mean that the majority of those who voted Leave were racists or xenophobes? No.

:biggrin:

Mooshie1956 wrote:Muslim attaking Christian. If a white person attacks a mosic and it's racially motivated then an attack by a muslim on our way of life has to be classed the same

Again.....religion isn't race.
You do realise that white people can be - and indeed are - Muslims.....and that throughout the World white Muslims have carried out terrorist attacks & been/are members of proscribed terrorist groups.
Besides....
What demographic was your average PIRA member from?
What religion was it which committed any number of terrorist attacks against British forces in Israel?
They weren't Muslims.
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby RAF4EVER on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 7:57 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
I actually know more Brits living and working in Europe, than I personally know Europeans working here. But hey, nobody thought of them did they?


Thank you,I live and work in The Netherlands,and voted remain.
. :smile:
RAF4EVER

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 8:49 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:
MiG_Eater wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining. I can't say for sure but I'm reasonable certain that there are racists of other colour in this country. 9/11 the killing of Lee Rigby, Manchester bombing, need I go on.


What have any of those attacks got to do with race?



Muslim attaking Christian. If a white person attacks a mosic and it's racially motivated then an attack by a muslim on our way of life has to be classed the same, or am I being Politically incorrect. And with that I think this should have a line drawn under it now, as this could get out of hand.


Islam is not a race and neither is Christian. 'Our way of life' - or at least my way of life, has literally nothing to do with my race. Islamist terrorist attacks are no more racially motivated than IRA bombings.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:19 pm

I know I said I would keep out of this, but answer me this why are attacks on Mosque (spelt proper this time) classed as racially motivated, as they are attacks on religion.


Edit to add

Or are we saying that only white people can be racists ?
.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:40 pm

Attacks on churches, synagogues & other non-Muslim places of worship have also been classed as 'racially motivated'.


You're not ex-RGJ, are you? :wink:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:41 pm



Some sensible analysis of yesterday's news...

"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
User avatar
LN Strike Eagle
UKAR Staff

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:47 pm

Not surprisingly, the whole of Radio 4's 'Any Questions?' this evening was devoted to Brexit.
Somewhat telling how John Redwood kept trying to talk over the other guests, referred a number of times to 'England' when he meant 'Britain' & thought he knew better than the MD of Siemens what industry feel about the possibility of a no-deal Brexit

Edited to add.....
LNSE - similarly, I wonder how much JR-M's hedge-fund company has made off the back of the shenanigans of the last few days.... :whistle:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:56 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Attacks on churches, synagogues & other non-Muslim places of worship have also been classed as 'racially motivated'.


You're not ex-RGJ, are you? :wink:



Don't know what or who RGJ is. Anyway it's time for a play on Fallout 76, so that's me done.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mooshie1956/
Panny G80 12-60 Lens
Panny 100-400 Lens
Olympus 60 Macro Lens
User avatar
Mooshie1956

PreviousNext

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ianf and 18 guests