Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 10:01 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Edited to add.....
LNSE - similarly, I wonder how much JR-M's hedge-fund company has made off the back of the shenanigans of the last few days.... :whistle:

From JRM's Wiki...

In 2007, Rees-Mogg left the company with a number of colleagues to set up their own fund management firm, Somerset Capital Management,[31] with the aid of hedge fund manager Crispin Odey
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 10:12 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:Don't know what or who RGJ is.

RGJ -Royal Green Jackets....or The Rifles as they now are.

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
In 2007, Rees-Mogg left the company with a number of colleagues to set up their own fund management firm, Somerset Capital Management,[31] with the aid of hedge fund manager Crispin Odey

:up:
That'll be the same firm that he's now reportedly re-locating to Ireland..... :whistle:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Sat 17 Nov 2018, 10:06 am

Wrexham Mackem wrote:That's the thing though - not all (actually far far from it) European migrants are in menial jobs.


I'm aware of that of course, my dentist is Polish, and she's great. I also worked with a number of Poles in architecture, and they were equally good, although they came here before the current influx, which is probably the reason why so many Poles choose to come here now, they have those earlier examples to follow.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Sat 17 Nov 2018, 10:19 am

Brevet Cable wrote:The Rifles as they now are.


I think that they should go back to calling them The Rifle Brigade, sounds better to me.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Sat 17 Nov 2018, 10:20 am

What I don't understand about EU migrants is why all the fuss. what happens in say 100 years or so that the economic hub isn't the UK but the Eastern European countries. Won't the Brits then be wanting to move there.
Just look at how much industry is moving that way now, it's quite possible that there will be more jobs there than what we have here. I feel that this is a problem we now have in our society with the it's all about me attitude and not thinking about the future.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Sat 17 Nov 2018, 12:59 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:What I don't understand about EU migrants is why all the fuss. what happens in say 100 years or so that the economic hub isn't the UK but the Eastern European countries. Won't the Brits then be wanting to move there.
Just look at how much industry is moving that way now, it's quite possible that there will be more jobs there than what we have here. I feel that this is a problem we now have in our society with the it's all about me attitude and not thinking about the future.


Absolutely, you're absolutely right. As in the 80's with all the construction work.
In an immense self-inflicted blow, we've set ourselves back immeasurably.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 18 Nov 2018, 10:46 pm

starbuck wrote:I actually like him as a politician, I don't agree with everything he says but he is at least principled and more importantly (and almost exclusively in todays House of Commons) scrupulous. He'd make a terrible PM though as he polarises peoples opinions as soon as he opens his mouth. Plus he has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't want the job.


Certainly;

    How Jacob Rees-Mogg voted on Social Issues

  • Consistently voted against equal gay rights
  • Consistently voted against smoking bans
  • Consistently voted against allowing marriage between two people of same sex
  • Generally voted against laws to promote equality and human rights
  • Voted against allowing terminally ill people to be given assistance to end their life
...


https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926 ... rset/votes

Yes, Godwin's law, but "principled" is not really a mark of respect for an MP, to me. It's the principles themselves, not the act of being principled that are admirable. Hitler was remarkably principled, it's just that those principles were all shades of disgusting.

So I guess if you don't think that gay people should have equal rights, or that you don't think laws that promote equality and human rights, or you think that the elderly should be forced to live in their own lonely indignity, or you don't think the Iraq war should have been investigated, or so on then you can admire his principles - but you've already said that you don't agree with everything he says (who does agree with everything anyone says anyway?), so there's not a huge amount left to admire, is there?

I don't admire anyone just for the virtue of being principled in the same way I don't admire people for the basic ability to have an opinion. It's the quality of the opinion or the principles that matter.

But ehh... no-one cares about anything and everything's crap. It's easy for me - I just hate everything. :grin:

I mean no insult at you starbuck, I just see a lot of "well they are principled" comments from people as a mark of praise, and I've never really understood why, and that reminded me.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 1:26 am

I'm hoping that he's finally come unstuck.
Whilst others put their letters of no confidence in weeks or even months ago, JR-M has been hanging on until he believed enough would follow suit before doing it himself ( which is why so much was made of his action by the media )
It looks like that ground-swell isn't going to happen, though, and they'll fall well short of the 48 required to force a vote of no confidence.
No way will I ever be a supporter of PMTM, but the alternatives could be far worse & although her bill is poor it can hopefully be worked on & improved ( as some of the MPs backing her are trying to do ) and it's a heck of a lot better than what the hard-line Leave MPs want.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 3:43 pm

The House of Commons vote on the withdrawal agreement should be a secret ballot.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby PeteM on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 8:57 pm

iainpeden wrote:The House of Commons vote on the withdrawal agreement should be a secret ballot.


Totally agree, in fact every vote in both houses should be secret. The current system of whips telling members/peers which division lobby to walk down seems at odds with democracy and the wishes of Members constituents. It is antiquated and time consuming (I seem to remember the average was 15 mins per vote).
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 8:59 pm

Tommy wrote:
starbuck wrote:I actually like him as a politician, I don't agree with everything he says but he is at least principled and more importantly (and almost exclusively in todays House of Commons) scrupulous. He'd make a terrible PM though as he polarises peoples opinions as soon as he opens his mouth. Plus he has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't want the job.


Certainly;

    How Jacob Rees-Mogg voted on Social Issues

  • Consistently voted against equal gay rights
  • Consistently voted against smoking bans
  • Consistently voted against allowing marriage between two people of same sex
  • Generally voted against laws to promote equality and human rights
  • Voted against allowing terminally ill people to be given assistance to end their life
...


https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926 ... rset/votes

Yes, Godwin's law, but "principled" is not really a mark of respect for an MP, to me. It's the principles themselves, not the act of being principled that are admirable. Hitler was remarkably principled, it's just that those principles were all shades of disgusting.

So I guess if you don't think that gay people should have equal rights, or that you don't think laws that promote equality and human rights, or you think that the elderly should be forced to live in their own lonely indignity, or you don't think the Iraq war should have been investigated, or so on then you can admire his principles - but you've already said that you don't agree with everything he says (who does agree with everything anyone says anyway?), so there's not a huge amount left to admire, is there?

I don't admire anyone just for the virtue of being principled in the same way I don't admire people for the basic ability to have an opinion. It's the quality of the opinion or the principles that matter.

But ehh... no-one cares about anything and everything's crap. It's easy for me - I just hate everything. :grin:

I mean no insult at you starbuck, I just see a lot of "well they are principled" comments from people as a mark of praise, and I've never really understood why, and that reminded me.


First off and just to be clear, I'm no supporter or apologist for JRM and I certainly don't agree with him on his views of the above which are mainly due to his very strong Roman Catholic beliefs. Beliefs that he himself acknowledges are probably out of touch with the majority of both Parliament and the British public and (and this is where he differs from the frustrated German painter mentioned previously - bit surprised that you went there to be honest Tommy) once he was defeated he accepted that the democratic process had played out and he was on the losing side. I guess it's primarily up to the conservative association of North Somerset and then his constituents in general to decide if his views or principles are representative of them or not.

On reflection I think that it was more the fact that he does at least seem capable of being able to reason, debate and construct an argument based on what he believes in, something I am not good at doing and I find admirable in those that can and something I find pathetically lacking in nearly every other MP whose arses are full of splinters from all the fences they sit on waiting to see what the mood of the public is.

I would rather my politicians were driving the bus and convincing me that their's was the destination I should be going, rather than me driving my own bus and politicians trying to climb aboard, asking me where I'm going and then when I tell them they say "brilliant - let me show you how to get there".

Back to JRM and the list you provided I was surprised to see the fact that he was against a ban on smoking in cars with children in so I did a bit of googling and came across the article below that he wrote in the Daily Mail

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -cars.html

Now after reading the article I'm not sure I necessarily agree with him and it did strike me as being slightly hypocritical and contradictory in that he doesn't think that the state should intervene on peoples personal responsibilities and yet he thinks it is perfectly alright for a guy in a pointy hat and a dress carrying a big book to do so, but he does, for me at least, put across his point of view in an articulate intelligent way.

*Edited to add - those mentions of him being less than scrupulous with regard to the hedge fund are being a little disingenuous to say the least;

1. It's not his company, he is a partner (there are about 20 others from memory)
2. He works for them about 30 hours a year for which he declares his earnings. He gets a dividend worth millions every year as a partner all of which he declares.
3. The company he is on the board of, Somerset LLP are opening a fund in Dublin in addition to maintaining the operation in London and elsewhere around the world, it isn't moving to Dublin.
4. It's a hedge fund so rather unsurprisingly they are hedging on how Brexit will turn out. I would rather hope that the various funds my pension (and probably yours) is invested in would be doing the same if they haven't already, seems very prudent to me.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 9:20 pm

PeteM wrote:
iainpeden wrote:The House of Commons vote on the withdrawal agreement should be a secret ballot.


Totally agree, in fact every vote in both houses should be secret. The current system of whips telling members/peers which division lobby to walk down seems at odds with democracy and the wishes of Members constituents. It is antiquated and time consuming (I seem to remember the average was 15 mins per vote).


Could not disagree with this more. How can you have an open democracy if the public weren't able to know how their elected representatives voted? Whipping of MP's doesn't sound right in principle but it would be chaos if it didn't happen and there has to be collective responsibility. On matters where MP's are asked to vote on bills that are more of the heart than head then quite often the whip is removed anyway.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 8:53 am

I suppose the biggest test of JR-M's principles will be if this no-confidence movement fails. Rightly or wrongly he has been seen to have led that movement, and enjoyed the press spin of doing so. Will he step down as a Tory MP and trigger a by-election in his constituency and run as an independent, or a member of another party?

If he has no confidence in his leader enough to attempt to trigger an ousting of said leader, then, if his action fails, it seems to me the only thing left is to leave that party? :dunno:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 11:42 am

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 11:59 am

JR-M only handed in his letter of no confidence when he thought there were enough other MPs prepared to do so to make or exceed the 48 required.
He didn't have the integrity - or the cojones - to do what several more principled MPs did & hand in their letters weeks or even months ago.

As it stands, it looks like he overestimated the number of MPs who were going to do so ( or they lied / bottled it )
Oh dear, how sad..... :lol:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 12:37 pm

I wonder who some of these JR-M acolytes actually do have confidence in?

To be clear, I don't have much in PMTM, but I honestly can't think of anyone else from the Tory party that I'd rather have at the helm at the moment.

At least BoJo would naff it all up with a bit of humour thrown in. Or Ken Clarke might do it with added cigar smoke.

From a pretty bad bunch, I (think I) hate to say it, but she might be the best there is, at least for now.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 12:48 pm

lambo17841 wrote:Correct me if wrong but there is nothing to stop people coming from Europe to Ireland travel to the North with no border checks and a ferry to England,so much for stopping freedom of movement.

John


There is nothing to stop the migrants stuck at Calais from getting into Ireland and just walking into the U.K., except for an even bigger ferry trip. They don’t however as Ireland is in the CTA and not in Schengen so has very similar ( the same ) immigration controls as the U.K. at the EU border.

The bigger problem would be if Ireland joined the Schengen Area then it would be required to have passport control TODAY with the U.K. at the Irish Border, as even though we are in the EU we are not in Schengen.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 1:22 pm

A further question I find myself asking:

Where on earth are Labour in all this? How are they not milking this advantage for all its worth? Previous Labour parties would've given their left arm for the opportunity they find themselves in.

Corbyn's deafening silence should be noted in this process. It's pathetic.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 1:41 pm

I live in a safe Labour seat.

This Labour safe seat voted 70/30 Leave. So all these “right wing racists” are actually “left wing racists”.

Labour aren’t really sure how to deal with these facts.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 3:21 pm

ericbee123 wrote:I live in a safe Labour seat.

This Labour safe seat voted 70/30 Leave. So all these “right wing racists” are actually “left wing racists”.

Labour aren’t really sure how to deal with these facts.


Good point, illustrates perfectly Corbyn's dilemma.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 3:38 pm

starbuck wrote:How can you have an open democracy if the public weren't able to know how their elected representatives voted?

Because the system could be the same as it is now....how each MP voted could be published after the vote.
It works well enough elsewhere - none of this ridiculously archaic system of having to get up & walk through the Division Lobbies, you simply stay where you're sitting & vote electronically. Such a system would mean that MPs unable to attend would still be able to vote ( unlike now )

Whipping of MP's doesn't sound right in principle but it would be chaos if it didn't happen and there has to be collective responsibility. On matters where MP's are asked to vote on bills that are more of the heart than head then quite often the whip is removed anyway.

They should vote how they know/think their constituents would want them to, not how they feel they should.
There have been no end of instances where MPs have either been physically manhandled into whichever Lobby their party leader decides or threatened in various ways by the party whips - if anyone else did that in a normal job they'd probably be sacked, so why should MPs have to suffer it?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 3:53 pm

ericbee123 wrote:I live in a safe Labour seat.

This Labour safe seat voted 70/30 Leave. So all these “right wing racists” are actually “left wing racists”.

Labour aren’t really sure how to deal with these facts.



But on the other hand both Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain, and they are also Labour strongholds. So it doesn't really make sense as that makes the leavers actually right wing racists where I live.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 4:28 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
starbuck wrote:How can you have an open democracy if the public weren't able to know how their elected representatives voted?

Because the system could be the same as it is now....how each MP voted could be published after the vote.
It works well enough elsewhere - none of this ridiculously archaic system of having to get up & walk through the Division Lobbies, you simply stay where you're sitting & vote electronically. Such a system would mean that MPs unable to attend would still be able to vote ( unlike now )

Whipping of MP's doesn't sound right in principle but it would be chaos if it didn't happen and there has to be collective responsibility. On matters where MP's are asked to vote on bills that are more of the heart than head then quite often the whip is removed anyway.

They should vote how they know/think their constituents would want them to, not how they feel they should.
There have been no end of instances where MPs have either been physically manhandled into whichever Lobby their party leader decides or threatened in various ways by the party whips - if anyone else did that in a normal job they'd probably be sacked, so why should MPs have to suffer it?


I think we are actually agreeing with each other aren't we? Neither of us think secret votes are a good idea as the other posters have suggested, it's just that you want to see the votes cast straight away. I've got no issue with that but it would be hard to do in parliament as there aren't enough seats on the benches for every MP to be able to sit and therefore push a button to cast a vote (blame Churchill for that) and even then it wouldn't change anything in regards to whips.

With regards to the way the MP's vote it sounds good in theory but how would it actually work in practice? My MP has a constituency that contains a coast line, fields and villages and towns and cities, how he is he supposed to know or think what his constituents would like to see happen about a ban on smoking in cars or renewing Trident?
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 5:20 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:
ericbee123 wrote:I live in a safe Labour seat.

This Labour safe seat voted 70/30 Leave. So all these “right wing racists” are actually “left wing racists”.

Labour aren’t really sure how to deal with these facts.



But on the other hand both Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain, and they are also Labour strongholds. So it doesn't really make sense as that makes the leavers actually right wing racists where I live.


Out of the 10 Greater Manchester boroughs, 3 voted to remain and 7 voted to leave.

Liverpool, Wirral and Sefton voted to remain in the European Union - but every other district in the area voted to leave.

Labour strongholds next to each other voted differently.
What can Labour do ?

They are in the same place as Conservatives were during Tony Blair’s New Labour years - how could the Conservatives oppose a Labour Party wanting to bomb Iraq or a Labour Party advocating tax cuts ?

Labour currently look like they are hanging back to see which way the wind turns then jump on that direction “as the direction they always wanted”.

Lots of labour supporters have proven they are against immigration and are “racists” - if we are to believe that is the prime reason people voted Leave. They aren’t all peace loving, caring socialists.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 6:09 pm

ericbee123 wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:
ericbee123 wrote:I live in a safe Labour seat.

This Labour safe seat voted 70/30 Leave. So all these “right wing racists” are actually “left wing racists”.

Labour aren’t really sure how to deal with these facts.



But on the other hand both Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain, and they are also Labour strongholds. So it doesn't really make sense as that makes the leavers actually right wing racists where I live.


Out of the 10 Greater Manchester boroughs, 3 voted to remain and 7 voted to leave.

Liverpool, Wirral and Sefton voted to remain in the European Union - but every other district in the area voted to leave.

Labour strongholds next to each other voted differently.
What can Labour do ?

They are in the same place as Conservatives were during Tony Blair’s New Labour years - how could the Conservatives oppose a Labour Party wanting to bomb Iraq or a Labour Party advocating tax cuts ?

Labour currently look like they are hanging back to see which way the wind turns then jump on that direction “as the direction they always wanted”.

Lots of labour supporters have proven they are against immigration and are “racists” - if we are to believe that is the prime reason people voted Leave. They aren’t all peace loving, caring socialists.


I said Manchester voted to remain not Greater Manchester as that is a region, much like Lancashire, Cheshire are. If I look on this map from the BBC it tells me that both Liverpool and Manchester voted to remain. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028 you need to scroll down a bit.
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