Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:37 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:Because a minimum turnout would have negated a lot of the arguments which have occurred post-referendum.


Rigging the system to negate arguments is not very democratic. Its the 48% Remainers that are creating most of the arguments IMHO as they don't understand the basics of the process.

Not rigging.
And yet again we get the usual crap about "Remainers don't understand" :roll:
Care to remind us what Farage said before the referendum?

The Conservatives have made a mess of the negotiations, with May being more concerned about keeping the Party together & the hard-liners ( and the obnoxious back-stabbing bandwaggon-jumper Boris ) being more concerned with ousting May & sticking two fingers up at the EU without being bothered about the consequences for either industry or Joe Public.
Somewhat too late, May appears to have realised that pandering to the likes of DD, JRM & BJ isn't the best idea.


OK, what turn out/figures would you have required in order to get an "out vote". And , in addition to your own figures, with zero legal precedent, how would Cameron have sold the concept to the nation and what process would he have used to come up with the figures?

I am sorry to over simplify things but, in an Olympic sprint, the Gold medal winner does not have to win by a particular margin. A foot or a fraction of an inch, a win is a win. The same applies when electing an MP. A majority of 5,000 or a majority of 1. And the same applies to votes in the commons. This is how it has always worked and remainers seemed very happy within this system up to the point when they lost.

Obvioulsy, it's all hyperthetical but I can promise you that if remain had won by 51%, I would have accepted the result rather than complain about turnout figures, winning margins etc etc
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:41 pm

Brevet Cable wrote: without being bothered about the consequences for either industry or Joe Public.


BC: What are these consequences for either industry or Joe Public? Can you quantify them? I'm happy to address them with facts and figures.

I also note that nobody has presented any factual evidence of the benefits 4 decades of EU membership has brought to the UK. Even the booklet by the govt only contained speculation and opinion.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 2:01 pm

Tommy wrote:Wrong way around. It is those who seek to rely on the referendum being binding that need to prove that it was so.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

There was no doubt on the morning after the referendum when I woke up to hear the BBC announcer say confidently 'We are leaving the EU!' It's all gone rather pear-shaped since then.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 4:44 pm

pbeardmore wrote:OK, what turn out/figures would you have required in order to get an "out vote". And , in addition to your own figures, with zero legal precedent, how would Cameron have sold the concept to the nation and what process would he have used to come up with the figures?
(snip)
Obviously, it's all hypothetical but I can promise you that if remain had won by 51%, I would have accepted the result rather than complain about turnout figures, winning margins etc etc

It's generally been suggested that a 75% turnout would have been a suitable figure.
The justification would have been that it would be a guarantee that it truly represented the will of the people.

Whilst you and others would have accepted the result if 51% had voted 'remain' ( just as many of us who voted remain accept the 'leave' result ) Farage & other 'Leave' campaigners were openly stating that if they lost by only a couple of % they wouldn't accept the result and would be campaigning for further referendums.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 5:50 pm

AlexC wrote:
Tommy wrote:Wrong way around. It is those who seek to rely on the referendum being binding that need to prove that it was so.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that.


It used to be arguable. But it isn't any more. The courts have decided upon it. It's a fact. There's nothing to "agree to disagree" on. There is no way you can disagree with it without just being wrong. That's like saying "well, we will agree to disagree that the sun rises in the east". It's an immovable fact that doesn't have a second side to it. You can't disagree with it. It just is. Either you accept that the referendum was (legally speaking, *not* politically) advisory, or you're wrong. There's no alternative.

Guys, I don't understand what you're not getting (verreli sort of does - but I did caveat my post at the end with the moral side of things, which is and must be kept separate from the legal side of things)

I'm not stating that it is my opinion that the referendum was advisory. It *was* advisory. It has been found by the courts to be advisory. It used to be arguable, but the courts have decided upon it. There is nothing in it that makes it legally binding. It's not an "argument" any more than, as said, stating that the sun rises in the east or that a bear does the proverbial in the woods.

That's not some snub at Brexit that you guys all have to defend. The 1975 referendum was advisory, too.

But seeing as you guys don't trust me, and seem to think that I'm arguing, rather than simply stating; here, the High Court put the issue to bed in the much-covered Gina Miller case (yes, I've dug it out) (AlexC, here's your "proof" I guess):

106. That Act falls to be interpreted in light of the basic constitutional principles of Parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy which apply in the United Kingdom, which lead to the conclusion that a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament unless very clear language to the contrary is used in the referendum legislation in question. No such language is used in the 2015 Referendum Act.


107. Further, the 2015 Referendum Act was passed against a background including a clear briefing paper to parliamentarians explaining that the referendum would have advisory effect only. Moreover, Parliament must have appreciated that the referendum was intended only to be advisory as the result of a vote in the referendum in favour of leaving the European Union would inevitably leave for future decision many important questions relating to the legal implementation of withdrawal from the European Union
(my emphasis)

This was unchanged by the Supreme Court. I, and the courts, literally can't be any clearer on this. If you continue to disagree that the sun rises in the east, I'm not going to stop you, but that's much more likely to put an end to democracy than the politicians deciding not to leave the EU after the vote (which they never would have done anyway - that's the moral point. But we all agree on that.).

This is all different to how politically suicidal it would've been to ignore the result. But that was never what I said. In fact, my last post I specifically pointed out that difference. You guys seem to fail to see it.

An exasperated last attempt - As a matter of law (not politics) the referendum was advisory, not binding.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 6:23 pm

AlexC wrote:There was no doubt on the morning after the referendum when I woke up to hear the BBC announcer say confidently 'We are leaving the EU!' It's all gone rather pear-shaped since then.

Because they told lies and made promises that simply could not be kept, which is why they're like rats fleeing a sinking ship. They didn't have the first clue about what they were talking about or doing, it was all just an exercise in trying to further their own ambitions and settle old scores. The fact that there was no plan then, and there still is no plan 6 months before the deadline should make it obvious to anyone that they were sold a pup. They promised you the moon on a stick with no knowledge of the difficulties it would create, and not a single idea how to go about solving the problems.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 6:36 pm

You describe it as if the electorate had no access to data and info unless it was via politicians. It was perfectly possible to make ones own mind up without paying any attention to the politicians.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 6:44 pm

Everybody goes back the position that the people voted to leave the EU and it would be undemocratic for the politicians to ignore that result.

The British version of democracy is of a parliamentary nature where the elected members pay heed to the wishes of all their constituents but are not bound to vote in line with those wishes. "Pure", or Athenian democracy is based on the notion that all eligble people (in the case of Athens all males over a certain age) meet to discuss matters and have a vote with the majority view being adopted.

In Britain our MPs say they have to heed the wishes of all their constituents. Without delving into exact figures and percentages I'd hazard a guess that in no constituency in the land did a majority of eligible voters vote either for or against the referendum.

The typical size of constituencies differs between parts of the UK. The Office for National Statistics gives the median total parliamentary electorate across constituencies of about 72,400 in England, 69,000 in Scotland, 66,800 in Northern Ireland and 56,800 in Wales. So if no area in England got 36,201 (either to stay or to leave) then it can be argued that there was not a clear mandate. On the premise, again, that an MP has to heed all views - stay, leave and undecided - it is up to that MP to make up his or her mind on what they think is best for the country and vote accordingly.

So, to go back to the notion that for parliament to act against the vote is undemocratic is a fallacy. That said it would take some explaining.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 6:55 pm

pbeardmore wrote:You describe it as if the electorate had no access to data and info unless it was via politicians. It was perfectly possible to make ones own mind up without paying any attention to the politicians.

How many did though? Your average Brexit voter just spouts catchphrases like "will of the people", "regain our sovereignty" and "Brexit means Brexit". Intelligent people I know voted for Brexit based on the lie emblazoned on a bus about NHS funding. They both now say that, should there be a second referendum, they would vote remain, and one even went so far as to tell me he feels guilty about his vote when he thinks back on it.

What did your research lead you to believe the solution would be for the Northern Ireland border?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 7:57 pm

"Intelligent people I know voted for Brexit based on the lie emblazoned on a bus about NHS funding."

Hunt the oxymoron.

Re the Irish border, we have the same solution as any other physical border around the World. Yes, its a massive pain in the backside and will lead to loss of jobs etc but it's not a big enough issue for me to over shaddow/over rule other issues and we should not be held hostage by it.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:04 pm

Hunt the oxymoron.

So intelligent people can't be led astray or make errors of judgement then? The idea of propaganda like that is to hoodwink people, and it worked on a massive scale. Good people being fed and falling for lies doesn't make them bad or unintelligent people.

Re the Irish border, we have the same solution as any other physical border around the World

Ignoring the fact that neither country wants that, and of course that a physical border jeopardises the Good Friday Agreement and risks bringing violence back. Any other bright ideas?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:06 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:You describe it as if the electorate had no access to data and info unless it was via politicians. It was perfectly possible to make ones own mind up without paying any attention to the politicians.

How many did though? Your average Brexit voter just spouts catchphrases like "will of the people", "regain our sovereignty" and "Brexit means Brexit". Intelligent people I know voted for Brexit based on the lie emblazoned on a bus about NHS funding. They both now say that, should there be a second referendum, they would vote remain, and one even went so far as to tell me he feels guilty about his vote when he thinks back on it.

What did your research lead you to believe the solution would be for the Northern Ireland border?


That's not my experience. I find that people who voted leave did so for specific reasons. Not all of them based on research as mine was but all valid to their own specific circumstances. It's remain voters who generally can't identify specific facts and figures for their position. I've even asked several times on this forum and not one person has come up with anything credible. I ask again, how is the EU specifically benefiting your quality of life that couldn't be achieved as an independent nation state?

I'd also put it to you that the only people who really benefit from the EU are bankers, owners of multinational organisations and others at the very top of the food chain. Conversely it is that group that will lose out if we leave. Why do you think there is so much establishment resistance? Further I would suggest that the average citizen who is strongly behind remain is being controlled in much the same way that a terrorist leader controls the suicide bomber. i.e. a mere pawn in their game. That they can't point to data is evidence for this. This hasn't happened over night. This is the result of decades of propaganda.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:13 pm

verreli wrote: Further I would suggest that the average citizen who is strongly behind remain is being controlled in much the same way that a terrorist leader controls the suicide bomber. i.e. a mere pawn in their game. That they can't point to data is evidence for this. This hasn't happened over night. This is the result of decades of propaganda.


You just compared remain voters to terrorists. You’ve lost all credibility.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:41 pm

Tommy wrote:You just compared remain voters to terrorists. You’ve lost all credibility.


Perhaps, but remove the emotion and consider the mechanism by which people are manipulated to do others bidding, especially when it isn't in their interest. I'll concede the terrorist analogy was perhaps too extreme but plenty of poor souls have suffered at the hands of those with an alternative agenda. Politics is the same thing but on an industrial scale.

Incidentally, I'm not trying to move people from one position to another. What I'm trying to do is motivate people to research their position so it's for the right reasons.
Last edited by verreli on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:44 pm

Basing your decision re the Brexit vote on a slogan pasted on the side of a bus is not an intelliigent thing to do IMHO. An intelligent person would, firstly, establish whether the slogan/claim was true.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 10:03 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Basing your decision re the Brexit vote on a slogan pasted on the side of a bus is not an intelliigent thing to do IMHO. An intelligent person would, firstly, establish whether the slogan/claim was true.


Yet people did. And that was what it was those slogans were designed to do.

So your point is that, because people listened to the politicians that lied (and, again, Vote Leave has been found to have broken the law in the campaign), that said people are stuck with Brexit as a sort of punishment for not doing their own research, rather than the politicians for lying so blatantly in the first place? :dunno:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 10:13 pm

Slogans on the side of busses are not aimed at intelligent people.

"Gillette, the best a man can get" Does an intelligent person see that and think "Yes, I will go and buy that razor because it's the best a man can get?" An intelligent person knows it's BS
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 8:12 am

Remain could easily have shown how crazy the £350 Million a week to the NHS slogan was, by pointing out that the NHS costs us £1.2 Billion a week and an extra £350 Million or £0.35 Billion a week would at best just fill in some gaps and would probably make not the slightest difffernce to the NHS.

Then again pointing out that our “envy of the world” NHS is a huge money pit that needs an awful lot more than £350 Million a week spending on it, just to put it right, when the UK isn’t even in the top 20 countries for quality of healthcare, might not be in the establishment’s interest.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 8:58 am

ericbee123 wrote:Remain could easily have shown how crazy the £350 Million a week to the NHS slogan was...


They did. It was ignored by people who hoped for the simple solution to a complex problem promised to them by liars and law-breakers.

I'll say it again, the fault and blame lies squarely with the politicians that lied. No-one else. You can't say that the side of the bus slogan was the fault of Remain for not pointing out how stupid it was (even though many did). Nor can you say "well it serves you right for not doing your research" or "intelligent people don't vote on the basis of what's on the side of a bus" logic.

Vote Leave lied to people. They admitted it. They broke the law. It's been proven.

You can still support Brexit but distance yourself from the official campaign, you know. You can still think that Farage is a soul-sucking noxious parasite, but still want to leave the European Union. The only reason people continue to defend the side of the bus lie - which was admitted as a lie on the day of the result, by the way - or side with a campaign that broke the law, is because they are invested in being "right". They would rather plough their own logic and dignity into the ground, rather than just say "yeah those guys were terrible. We happen to have the same aims, but I want nothing to do with them". And people like that are idiots. Because logic and reason comes second to tribal mentality. They get to their final position first, and then try and find the logic to get there, rather than using logic to get to the end point. Hence why you can't argue with a great many of them. Or if you do, it ends up in an absolutely nonsense "agreeing to disagree".

I think the same about a lot of the Remain campaign. I think it was one of the most poorly run campaigns of a generation. It was pathetic, and it was full of politicians and people that I want nothing at all to do with ever. But I want to remain in the EU. The two aren't hand-in-hand.

This is the symptom of Brexit. This is why we are where we are. This stupid, idiotic, undemocratic tribal mentality. Anything that is negative about Brexit must be argued against. Even if it is something that can't be argued.

Look at this "the referendum was advisory" business. I stated it as a fact, because it is. It was a single line in my original post. And I assumed that you were all of the intelligence to just take it as a fact. For some reason you guys took it as a snub at Brexit, and you all argued with me, so I explained myself, and how it was a fact, not an argument. But you continued to argue with me some more, and so I had to dig out the court judgment that very literally said "the referendum was advisory". And now there's silence, despite most people having posted in this thread since my explanatory post, which means you must've read it and clearly realised that you've realised that it was, indeed, a fact. I'm not being arrogant about that. If it was a particular argument or point I was making, then I would be, but I literally drew blood out of a stone in this thread to explain thatt he sun rises in the east. To explain what many should have taken as the fact that it was in the first place.

And anyone reading this thread in the meantime thinks "Jesus H this is so god damn boring. Bloody politics" and gets disinterested and switches off to both what you lot are saying and what I am saying. That's a symptom of Brexit. That's why Brexit is the very worst of democracy, because the electorate are so spectacularly misinformed.

Stupid god-damned tribal mentality. It'll be the end of us.

You know, in this thread, I've not really (properly anyway) expressed my own view of the White Paper or even on Brexit. I haven't had time to. I've spent the whole time going to great pains to correct things that have been said by others and trying to ensure that misinformation is dealt with.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:14 am

I voted Remain but if there was another referendum I would vote Leave next time.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:38 am

Both sides lied.

Pick up any GE manifesto from a party that went on to win. Just full of lies. It's not as if politiciians have been truthful for decades and suddenly start to lie in this campagn.

Cameron lied live on TV, promising to honour the result and lead us out of the EU if thats what the nation wanted. Huge whopper right there.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... six-graphs

So to try to lay ALL of the responsibility for the result on one lie on the side of a handful of busses does not add up I'm afriad. IMHO there are far deeper root causes of the vote and none of these were dealt with effectively during the build up to the vote or after. The Westminster elite are still squabling within their own bubble and have learnt nothing.

Check out this video that was made before the vote. Have any of their concerns been dealt with? Has the agenda changed? Would these people change their vote if we voted again? Did the bus play any role in the decision?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ndum-video
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:43 am

pbeardmore wrote:Both sides lied.

Pick up any GE manifesto from a party that went on to win. Just full of lies. It's not as if politiciians have been truthful for decades and suddenly start to lie in this campagn.

Cameron lied live on TV, promising to honour the result and lead us out of the EU if thats what the nation wanted. Huge whopper right there.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... six-graphs

So to try to lay ALL of the responsibility for the result on one lie on the side of a handful of busses does not add up I'm afriad. IMHO there are far deeper root causes of the vote and none of these were dealt with effectively during the build up to the vote or after. The Westminster elite are still squabling within their own bubble and have learnt nothing.


The plural of bus is "buses".
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:46 am

c'mon Dan, chill, it's an important discussion, cant we stay on track, I'm sorry.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:50 am

pbeardmore wrote:c'mon Dan, chill, it's an important discussion, cant we stay on track, I'm sorry.


Your argument would be a lot better put if you ran your posts through a spelling and grammar check - that's not too much to ask? :dunno:
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