Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 6:09 pm

It took a few days for someone to do one, but....

https://www.captiongenerator.com/1176382/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-saves-Brexit

( may be me being fick, but can't work out how to embed it )

Contains a few sweary bits.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 11:07 pm

BBC News Comments Section : Santa will not be able to deliver presents if there is a No Deal Brexit.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 9:28 am

I think it's possible that May has done such a dreadful job that we will, via a second national vote, change our minds and remain. Don't forget, this is actually what she personally wanted in the first place. She could be a twisted genius.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 11:04 am

I don't know about twisted genius but I'm finding it hard not to admire her.

I'm not a fan of the vast majority of what she has done, what she is doing or her shower of a party, but she is impressively resilient. I think in her place most of us would be a crumpled heap on the floor.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

So how many of you have got your questions ready for the live Q&A session she's doing on Radio 5 in about half an hour from now, then?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 12:49 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I don't know about twisted genius but I'm finding it hard not to admire her.

I'm not a fan of the vast majority of what she has done, what she is doing or her shower of a party, but she is impressively resilient. I think in her place most of us would be a crumpled heap on the floor.


She can probably also see that the queue of those waiting to take on her job and all the Brexit related difficulties is dwindling by the day, and that those who are left aren't exactly likely to pose much of a threat.

So resilient yes, but also shrewd enough to see that short of stepping down (which I'm not even sure she can, can she? I know there are 2 ways for an MP to leave their post mid term (other than dying) but could, in theory, a PM just decide they'd had enough??) she will be PM come next March.

She can afford to come across as very resilient because in actual fact she's not under any real threat. Whatever she does around Brexit, be it good bad or ugly, it almost certainly is going to be her doing it and not someone else. In the face of that it's probably a little easier to get on with it.

However much others moan (and I'm no fan, let's make that clear), I haven't seen anybody offer a genuine and credible alternative.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 1:52 pm

Two out of the last three of our previous prime ministers chucked the towel early
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Berf on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 3:35 pm

From The Guardian
Another fall out from Brexit:

Sajid Javid has quietly abandoned plans to ban high-powered military-grade rifles after dozens of hard Brexit Conservatives and the DUP came together to voice opposition to the Home Office plan. The police had wanted to ban .50- or higher-calibre weapons – which can immobilise a vehicle or truck from a mile away – and Labour was ready to support the government to get the ban through parliament despite the Tory rebellion. But the home secretary has changed his mind amid the lobbying and on Friday put down an amendment to the offensive weapons bill going before the Commons next Wednesday, reversing the ban the government had proposed.

Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow policing and crime minister, said: “Senior officers have warned the police have no known protection against these destructive weapons and yet ministers have still caved in to their restive backbenchers.” Sixty-nine MPs had signed an amendment demanding a reversal of the ban, including Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the hard Brexit European Research group, as well as Steve Baker, Sir Bill Cash and Nadine Dorries. ERG members were looking for the opportunity to stage a show of strength in parliament to demonstrate they also had the numbers to block Theresa May’s final deal Brexit deal when it comes to parliament in mid-December.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 4:48 pm

Good, because it was bloody stupid.
Much like a lot of other bloody stupid law changes which have been introduced or are being attempted to be introduced.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Fri 23 Nov 2018, 5:20 pm

Back to the thread.
I think Mrs May did a good job this lunchtime with clear answers and having the brains to actually go to the public.

As to the withdrawal agreement. It appears that it's a gradual process with the intention that it will be smooth for business; as they pay the bills and provide the jobs that's a pretty important thing. I have heard representatives from the CBI, small business confederation and a northern Irish business organisation all saying it's what they need to continue trading. It also appears to give the green light to on-going frictionless trade.

Five years on, once the trade agreements are in place - and the EU appear positive about that - we will be wondering what the fuss was about.
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Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby CJS on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:14 pm

Not intended to take the place of the current Brexit thread but I wonder what UKAR would do if (God forbid...) we were in charge of deciding whether or not a new referendum should be held re Brexit.

I do realise this is massively simplifying things but humour me: what would your choice be? Hold another and give the people another, more informed, choice or plough ahead with a hugely unpopular (on both sides it seems) deal / no deal?
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby iainpeden on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:23 pm

If UKAR was in charge of Brexit we certainly couldn't make a worse mess of it than the politicians.

If we had a referendum on holding a referendum, which is what you're asking, I'd vote against it a) because we'd look a right load of idiots, b) the EU club isn't going to extend our right to have an on-going party political squabble anyway and c) it would be never ending - best of 7 anybody?

(on the vote I'm in the minority at 2:1 {at the moment!))
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Slinger65 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:27 pm

Yes - to misquote the economist John Maynard Keynes..."When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?". It is pretty clear that the "facts" we were told by the Brexiteers have turned out to be fanciful, and at worst case the current "deal" would lead to us all being significantly poorer and a potential return of the "Troubles" in Ireland. I don't think too many of us voted for that...
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Tim Laurence on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:38 pm

No 2nd referendum.
No deal.
Full Brexit.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby iainpeden on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:44 pm

Slinger65 wrote:Yes - to misquote the economist John Maynard Keynes..."When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?". It is pretty clear that the "facts" we were told by the Brexiteers have turned out to be fanciful, and at worst case the current "deal" would lead to us all being significantly poorer and a potential return of the "Troubles" in Ireland. I don't think too many of us voted for that...

As a “just”outer I based my vote on what I have known about the EEC/EU since 1972 not the hype spouted by either side of the refendum argument. As to the argument about the Irish troubles resurfacing you’re actually admitting that a minority of terrorists from a part of the Uk which is generally a financial drain on the whole country should be allowed to influence the next stage in our history.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby DerekF on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 9:27 pm

Or another way of putting it is that the hard won peace in Northern Ireland is being put in jeopardy by those that have put their faith in falsehoods by the the likes of Gove, Johnson, Davies, Farage etc (where are they now btw). From the beginning it was clear that the Irish border would be major sticking point and so it has proved to be. Not Project Fear but Project Truth.

The future safety and security of the world must lie in less nationalism and more in cooperation between groups of nations and we are coming out of one the biggest - genius work Brexiteers. :clown:
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Tomahawk on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 9:52 pm

DerekF wrote:Or another way of putting it is that the hard won peace in Northern Ireland is being put in jeopardy by those that have put their faith in falsehoods by the the likes of Gove, Johnson, Davies, Farage etc (where are they now btw). From the beginning it was clear that the Irish border would be major sticking point and so it has proved to be. Not Project Fear but Project Truth.



Or another way of putting that is Iain is in fact correct.

I did vote remain but I continue to be amazed by those who seem to view the EU as some sort of nirvana or Project Fantasy and cannot see how deeply flawed as an organisation it really is. Dismissing all who voted to leave with the implication they are either stupid or racist (or both) is equally nonsensical. Neither side in the referendum was capable of meaningful debate.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby starbuck on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:13 pm

CJS wrote:I do realise this is massively simplifying things but humour me: what would your choice be? Hold another and give the people another, more informed, choice or plough ahead with a hugely unpopular (on both sides it seems) deal / no deal?


I'm not trying to be awkward about this but what would your imaginary ballot paper look like? Looks like you are asking us to put a tick in 1 of 3 boxes?

1. Hold another referendum
2. Back Theresa's deal
3. Leave with no deal

I'm not sure how we would get any meaningful mandate on that basis - all the remainers would vote for option 1 as it's the only one they can vote for and the leavers vote would be split between all 3 options?
Last edited by starbuck on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Tommy on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:15 pm

So what's the question?

If we were in charge would we hold a second referendum, or how would we vote in a hypothetical second referendum (what IainP seems to think in his first post)?

IDK how I feel about either, tbh. I'm no great fan of the EU, but I'm even less of a fan of the prospect of leaving it in a manner and under a policy that is guided by the lowest calibre of political competence across all parties that we have ever seen in this country.

I'm not sucked-in by the "it goes against democracy" thing, either. I think that's a rubbish argument. Democracy is the ability to change minds, not to plough-on regardless. There is of course the factor of time, but the "it goes against democracy" crowd's logic would surely apply to the referendum in the 70s, and therefore the 2016 referendum was anti-democratic. It seems to me a nonsense circular argument often spouted by people who don't seem to actually understand democracy. And for the umpteenth time, democracy isn't some sacred chalice of virtue. It's simply the best of a bunch of crap solutions to get people to make decisions for us. Others have tried other methods and they've all been a bit crappier than this one, so we took the least crappy of all the crap ways.

What i think will happen is that Brexit will go on forever. It will never fail catastrophically because too many people of importance have too many interests they want or need to safeguard. Likewise, it will never ever be a resounding success for exactly the same reason. Remainers and Brexiteers will go on at it until the zeitgeist shifts, which doesn't look likely anytime soon. The only way Brexit will ever be resolved is if it either clearly demonstrably fails or succeeds, and it will need to be seen to fail or succeed. But it's an unruly beast, and it won't do that. It'll plod along the middle ground, not being "hard" enough for leavers, and being too "out" for remainers.

I don't think a second referendum will solve a huge amount. Even if remain would win. Unless and until this Article 50 case gets the legal screwdriver in the crack in the plasterboard of Article 50 and wiggles it around, then by automatic operation of law, we will leave the EU on March 29th. There's little we can do to stop that atm. As I went to great length to set out in the other thread.

Referendums are stupid. They are open to all kinds of abuse, and more importantly than that, we are all god-damn idiots willing to believe either doom-mongering or fantasy tales. We don't know what we want. We haven't a clue. How could we? Something as unwieldy and complex as the EU, what on earth do you expect?

It has its considerable bad points, it has its utterly wonderful points. To consider it wholly bad or wholly good, like considering Brexit wholly bad or wholly good, is utterly stupid.

Brexit is, always was, and always will be a big yawn. Newspaper headlines and puff aside, has a huge amount changed since 2016? What directly-related changes there have been have been negative, it appears, but not world-endingly so. The same will happen on March 29th. The world shan't end. We shall be worse off, but it'll mostly be a big old yawn of incompetence and sludgy misery.

That's why I dislike Brexit. The big grey boring mass of it. All that time and money and energy wasted. Think about how much we could've done to progress this country, to help each other to do great big things that the world takes notice of us for, and instead we've been discussing something we didnt really even care about 5 years ago.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Slinger65 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:19 pm

Precisely. The EU has become a self serving organisation which appears to have lost sight of its primary goal - peace, unity and therefore prosperity in Europe. It is not only the UK where there are growing concerns at the rise of the EU "superstate", unfortunately those concerns are then hijacked and used to promote nationalist, more extreme ideologies.

The only Brexit options now on the table are a chaotic "no deal" or a deal which ties us into much of the EU's regulatory (and to an extent political) frameworks but with no ability to influence from within. So it seems to me a better choice to try to continue to influence the organisation from within, rather than face a very uncertain future outside. I don't think either option bears any relation to the vision espoused by Farage, Boris, Gove et al at the time of the original referendum. If it did, they would be much more visible advocating it now.

The facts have changed. Opinions have changed. This is the most important decision our country will take for a generation - we need to be sure we are making the right one. Giving the electorate an opportunity to change their mind - or reaffirm their original decision - is the right, and only course. Sadly our elected politicians seem unable to grasp this.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:22 pm

The EU isn't perfect, but surely it is better to be inside and work to reform it, than slope off into the wilderness isolated and internally divided?

There is no Brexit scenario - soft, hard, deal or no deal - where we are in any way, shape or form better off than we currently are. The referendum was overly-simplistic - "leave or remain" was far, far too generic a question for the general public to be allowed to decide upon, especially when the Leave side was quite clearly funded by malevolent forces both foreign and domestic, with vested interests contrary to the national good. The campaign pandered to the lowest common denominator, peddling lies and button-pushing propaganda to appeal to the intolerant, the racist and the plain stupid. That's not to say ALL Leave voters fall into that category, but I guarantee that every card-carrying racist sentient enough to drag itself to a polling station voted to leave.

And now it is quite clear that a significant number of people who wanted to leave have now, given the cold hard facts that weren't discussed or produced during the referendum, changed their minds.

A government is supposed to do what is in the country's best interests. How on earth is leaving the EU for something unknown, but quite clearly worse acting in our best interests?
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby AlexC on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:25 pm

DerekF wrote:From the beginning it was clear that the Irish border would be major sticking point and so it has proved to be. Not Project Fear but Project Truth.


If by that you mean that a major sticking point (as well as others) was the fact that the people of the EU counties could enter the UK by merely walking over the border from the Republic of Ireland at will thereby making a mockery of the end of free movement, then yes, it was clear from the beginning.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby DerekF on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:27 pm

Tomahawk wrote:
DerekF wrote:Or another way of putting it is that the hard won peace in Northern Ireland is being put in jeopardy by those that have put their faith in falsehoods by the the likes of Gove, Johnson, Davies, Farage etc (where are they now btw). From the beginning it was clear that the Irish border would be major sticking point and so it has proved to be. Not Project Fear but Project Truth.



Or another way of putting that is Iain is in fact correct.

I did vote remain but I continue to be amazed by those who seem to view the EU as some sort of nirvana or Project Fantasy and cannot see how deeply flawed as an organisation it really is. Dismissing all who voted to leave with the implication they are either stupid or racist (or both) is equally nonsensical. Neither side in the referendum was capable of meaningful debate.


There was plenty of meaningful points put forward by the Remain side but it was dismissed wholesale as Project Fear by the Brexit team. I wouldn't dare say that everyone that voted to leave is stupid but I have yet to see a a single sensible reason to leave. Reasons of democracy or sovereignty make no sense when examined. Immigration is a net benefit to our economy.

Thanks to May we will still have to deal with EU legislation except now we will have no say in the law-making. Another point made many times by the Remain side.
The EU is certainly not perfect but one thing is for sure, our chances of improving it are now gone. Still at least there's a blue passport to look forward to (which we could have had anyway).

Thirty years time, I wouldn't mind betting that there is a campaign to rejoin. If they'll let us.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby boff180 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:44 pm

Don’t think there will be a second referendum as such.

However.

The people were asked whether we should leave. That was the question.

Regardless of what individuals believed they were voting for, or, what politicians said this vote meant. That was the question.

The answer had no meaning other than leave, or not.

That is precisely why the people need an opportunity to agree to the deal that is on the table - or not.

That should not be left to Politicians that have time and time again proven to be putting their personal gain over and above the best interests of the nation.

That is what a second vote should be on IMHO.

If the people accept the deal then we get on with it.
If they don’t, we go back to the table - this time with an entire nations voice saying that a better different deal is needed from the EU.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby starbuck on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:57 pm

From those in favour of a second referendum I would genuinely like to know how they think it would actually work?

How would it be any different to how it was 2 years ago? Does everyone think that all the 'project fear' doom mongers and all the 'lie pedalling' leavers are just going to disappear into the wilderness?

It will be just the same as before, a 'one size fits all' question that means different things to different people all over the country.
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