Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 10:50 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:c'mon Dan, chill, it's an important discussion, cant we stay on track, I'm sorry.


Your argument would be a lot better put if you ran your posts through a spelling and grammar check - that's not too much to ask? :dunno:


Dan, it's one mistake. I think on this occasion it needs to be ignored, yes? :dunno:

Back to Brexit (the very word by the way = :sick: ): with every passing vote that scrapes through the Commons, every minister who resigns, every backbencher who revolts (and let's be honest, most of them are pretty revolting), the PM's position must be getting less and less tenable. I don't see anyone waiting in the wings who would do a better job, and my understanding of the timescale of a leadership campaign is that it wouldn't get done in time to be sorted before we have to leave the EU (if indeed that still ends up happening). But her credibility is being more and more damaged by the day.

Something has to give, and my feeling is that it might be the PM before too long.

She's been on the back foot ever since the cock up of a snap election (cock up for the Tories), to be honest I'm surprised she's lasted this long. Ironically, it may well be that Brexit is the only thing keeping her in Number 10.

It's a crazy mess, whichever side you're on. What is less clear is how that mess can be sorted out to anyone's satisfaction.

Possible putting Gareth Southgate in charge? We'd get a lot further through the negotiations favourably before it all went base over apex at least. :dunno:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 11:19 am

pbeardmore wrote:Check out this video that was made before the vote. Have any of their concerns been dealt with? Has the agenda changed? Would these people change their vote if we voted again? Did the bus play any role in the decision?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ndum-video


Thanks for posting this, I'd not seen it before and made for interesting viewing. It seemed to have everything in it that people have commented on in this thread and the numerous others on this site. Project fear was in effect from the hard working lady labour MP, there was full on gammon fisted knuckle dragging (or whatever it's called) from the leave campaigner and also and probably most significant for me was the appearance of Tristram Hunt the then local Labour MP.

The same ex-Cambridge Tristram Hunt who within 6 months had decided to leave his job as an MP and take up a position as a director of the V&A in London. For me the perfect embodiment of all that is wrong with the political disconnect that exists between the main parties and the electorate these days. If his red rosette was swapped for a blue one would anybody really have noticed any difference?

I felt patronized as a voter before the referendum, I wasn't persuaded by any of the 350 million a week or £4,000 a year worse off headlines they just cancelled each other out at the end of the day. What convinced me was something that rarely gets mentioned even now, what the future of the EU would look like even with us still in it. The EU is constantly evolving and in my mind at least, not in a good way that would be good for my children or grandchildren.

I do agree that we have made a complete dogs dinner of things since the result was announced and it is embarrassing to be British at the moment, however I also believe that what we have gone through in the last 2 years will also now start to emerge in Brussels and beyond. Barnier's real job is only just about to start, and it isn't negotiating with us, it will be getting all of the other 27 states to agree on a unified position.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 11:26 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote

Perfect example last night of what a mess the whole thing is. Farron off speaking about his Christian faith rather than in the Commons voting on crucial Brexit decisions that Gov won by the skin of their teeth. Utterly shambolic.

Re May, there will be no vote of confidence untill the Party has suitable candidates. The only one who really wants the job at the moment is Boris and he is not trusted by many Con MPs. There is a talent vacuum within the party just at the time when we need a truely great leader to get us through this mess.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 11:46 am

CJS wrote:
She's been on the back foot ever since the cock up of a snap election (cock up for the Tories)


She's been on the back foot ever since her pretty disgusting and unnuanced Tory Party Conference "citizens of nowhere" speech which set the tone and got the blood up of the hardline right-wing Tories and UKIPers-turned-Tories, and she's spent almost her entire tenure trying to pull back from that, whilst striving to keep her job.

Then she made that god awful decision to take the Article 50 case to the Supreme Court, against adivce, and lost that, then she triggered Article 50 starting the two-year legally unstoppable clock, without even knowing what Britain wanted, let alone having a plan for it, then she held the stupid four-month distraction of a snap election. The Windrush Scandal was her fault directly, and her own staff pulling the disgusting move of outing someone's sexuality to the public, knowing that it would spark considerable familial troubles, to try and silence a whistle-blower who now, given that Vote Leave have been found to have broken the law, has been vindicated, appointing a disgraced MP to try and source trade-deals (and has achieved the sum total of bugger all), and now made a pretty weak compromise between reality and the few-remaining Brexiteer's dream-world white paper, it's been two years of utterly rank incompetence from our PM.

I said it in the Brexit thread, and I said it in the snap election thread in January last year, after the Article 50 judgment, which began to show that May didn't have a reasonable head on her shoulders:

Tommy wrote:The most significant part of this judgment? May has made a poor decision, and made that poor decisions against good advice. In the trade negotiation process where the razor-sharp EU negotiators will not be looking to give an inch, there is spectacularly little room for error. Significantly, what this entire court scenario shows, is that May's decision-making might not be up to scratch.


We've seen that time and again over the last 18 or so months. And continue to do so. I can think of very little that she has got right.

She said with pride that she was a "bloody difficult woman". Maybe she was right. But not for the reason she thought she would be.

And, by the way, don't for a minute think that Davis and Johnson resigned out of noble principle. They know that the poo is on a collision course with the fan. They're using this opportunity to spin a "noble" departure and blame May, so that they don't get as much of the blame when said poo hits it. The quality of politics and politicians in this country, on all sides, is at its lowest point in decades.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 11:51 am

...don't for a minute think that Davis and Johnson resigned out of noble principle.

The cynical view is that they were trying to force a leadership challenge in order to completely derail the Brexit negotiations.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 11:53 am

pbeardmore wrote:There is a talent vacuum within the party just at the time when we need a truely great leader to get us through this mess.


Agreed. God knows where they are at the moment, though.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 12:02 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
...don't for a minute think that Davis and Johnson resigned out of noble principle.

The cynical view is that they were trying to force a leadership challenge in order to completely derail the Brexit negotiations.


It could well be, I think, but I'm being even more cynical and I think that they've realised that it is a poisoned chalice, they want to wait until it all goes bad and say "well, if *I* was in charge, we never would have had any of this crap".

It's so much easier to back out cowardly as they have done and shout from the outside, rather than actually work hard to sort something out and do what's best for the country.

That's why Nigel Farage loves having his talk show. He failed seven times to be an MP yet still gets to shout his mouth off on the BBC as much as he likes with no-one correcting him. Someone not only unelected in Parliament, but a someone who remains unelected after seven attempts, dictating the course of this nation's future is the true subversion of British democracy. Be honest, no-one really cared about the EU as much as they do now compared to when he started spouting his vitriol several years ago. I certainly didn't.

All words, bugger-all action.

And even he said, couple of weeks ago that "I never promised Brexit would be a success". That man is toilet paper, seriously.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 12:51 pm

Tommy wrote:It could well be, I think, but I'm being even more cynical and I think that they've realised that it is a poisoned chalice, they want to wait until it all goes bad and say "well, if *I* was in charge, we never would have had any of this crap".


Tommy if they've only just realised that it's a poisoned chalice then they can't be very intelligent. Most people knew when the vote was done that the PM job was going to be, a) difficult, and, b) a poison chalice. Why do you think Cameron left the job, apart from the fact he wouldn't have been up to it. Whoever leads this country out of the EU could possibly be known as the PM who destroyed Britain. May has already made us a laughing stock.
I can't see anyone putting in a challenge for the leadership of the Tory party, the best hope is that May decides to call an election, but even then I don't see any party getting an overall majority well be back to a coalition again with the Lib/Dems holding a main party to ransom for a very soft Brexit.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 1:11 pm

You could say that they tried sabotaging the process from within ( DD covertly & BJ overtly ) and now they're trying to do so from without.
But then, PMTM didn't help things by making DD one of the chief negotiators in the first place, given that he was never interested in negotiating anything.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

Tommy wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:There is a talent vacuum within the party just at the time when we need a truely great leader to get us through this mess.


Agreed. God knows where they are at the moment, though.


Honestly, you look down this list and you really do wonder. You know who I'd give a go to?

Ken Clarke. Or even...

...I'll tell you what - and this will surprise those of you who know I'm a teacher (which is now all of you) - for all his many faults, one of the most accomplished politicians 'we' have in the governing Tory party at the moment is Gove. God, I disagree with him on so much, but he does have a certain charm with other people, is supremely intelligent (although please Google 'Michael Gove falls over' and 'Michael Gove bores students', just to remind yourself that he has many elements of idiot about him) and has respect - even grudgingly a lot of his political enemies afford him some - from all sides of the house.

He'd be unpopular for sure with large parts of the country, but he might actually get more of a job done than the current incumbent.

Just to be clear, I still think he's an arse for what he did to teachers (i.e ignore them unless they taught at a private fee paying school), but as a politician, maybe he'd get us out of this mess. Or at least stop it getting messier, which is the only thing that's going to happen unless something changes pretty soon.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 2:43 pm

Another vote for Govey! :smile:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 3:59 pm

Anyone but DD, BJ or the odious Nadine Dorries.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 5:23 pm

There is just nobody there. We are really scaping the barrel with this lot. All dreadful IMHO. If there was anyone half decent, they would stand out and Con MPs would be getting May out ASAP. We will be paying the price for this mess for many, many years.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 5:29 pm

Not just Tories, though.

Corbyn held the snap election as a great success of Labour, but he didn't win power at all. Against such incompetence and in-fighting, it speaks volumes of his inadequacy that he was unable to win that election.

No-one, at all, stood out in last year's election as a future leader. The entire Tory party and Labour party had an utterly vacuous volume of chaff, and very little wheat.

Lib Dems (shameful what Farron and Cable did yesterday, btw) and Greens both could be promising. At least they're principled enough, but always get so perishingly few seats that they're hardly worth a mention.

Going back earlier, Ken Clarke is probably the best leader the Tory party never had.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 5:56 pm

To be honest, though, the Labour Party have their schisms & back-stabbers constantly undermining the leadership, which didn't help ( and in Wales, Labour aren't exactly popular these days due to the antics of the WAG )

As for the current encumbants, they're stuffed really - It's unlikely any pro-Leave MP would stick their head above the parapet to mount a leadership challenge to PMTM because they wouldn't be supported by the pro-Remain MPs, similarly no pro-Remain MP would do so because they wouldn't be supported by the pro-Leave MPs, and that's before you even take into account the absolute pigs ear
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 5:58 pm

Tommy wrote:
Going back earlier, Ken Clarke is probably the best leader the Tory party never had.


Tommy, you're showing your youth - that honour goes to Rab Butler; just as John Smith would have been a great Labour PM.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 6:10 pm

I suspect Tom might have meant currently alive possibilities.

Although as things stand, Rab Butler might *still* be a good shout.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 6:34 pm

CJS wrote:I suspect Tom might have meant currently alive possibilities.

Although as things stand, Rab Butler might *still* be a good shout.


I actually wasn't confining it to current possibilities, and it's a fair point, tbf. Happy to be corrected.

Though, yes, strictly speaking Ken Clarke is the best current Tory party leader that they've never had.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby UKTopgun on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:37 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them.

You might want to sense-check your points before posting, Dan.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby UKTopgun on Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:50 pm

In my view Brexit is utter madness. What amuses me even more is that some of the Brexit heartlands in the North East are the very same areas that rely on car manufacturing jobs in particular! Talk about the turkeys voting for Christmas.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 11:26 am

You are assuming that Brexit will lead to the loss of car manufacturing in the North East.

A couple of things to consider.

“Under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules, UK exports of complete vehicles could be subject to tariffs of up to 10 percent.”

The Pound has fallen more than 10% in the last two years against the Euro. If The EU don’t do a deal and they apply the max WTO import tariffs , the Nissans will still be cheaper in the EU than two years ago.

Some of Nissan’s most skilful workforce is based in the U.K. When Nissan has a problem at any other manufacturing plant, they assemble a team of Geordies/Mackems and send them in to fix the problem. My friend has even been sent to Japan to fix problems.

It’s all Project Fear.

Yes - you will find reports that Nissan will close down the UK operation, if the UK becomes uneconomical. Anyone would, you assume that Brexit under WTO deal means that. It might, but it might not. I’m sure Nissan will invest more if the UK suddenly becomes more profitable - as it might just as equally. If you ask a loaded question, you will get the answer you want to hear eventually.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 11:57 am

Relying on a weak pound is hardly a long term, optimistic plan though (but it helps in the short term)
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 12:24 pm

My personal favourite is the “we import more than we export” argument for remaining.

If we import more than we export then the main thing that comes into play is :

We choose the import tax we would put on, say Spanish Oranges.

If there is no trade deal with The EU, the WTO won’t force us to put WTO tariffs on Spanish Oranges, they can enforce a maximum that we put on them, but the WTO is there to facilitate trade , not hinder it.

Spain will be forced by the EU to put WTO tariffs on U.K. produce it imports, but can’t force us and neither can the WTO to put import duty on goods we import. We would chose to do it in retaliation, or not - if we still want cheap Oranges. Ok. Under WTO rules we would then have to have Zero import duty on all Oranges from anywhere in the world - we couldn’t charge import duty on say Israeli Oranges, but hey, I’d buy cheap Israeli oranges over Spanish oranges if I could.

Would you rather we send £1 Billion in aid to India or buy £2 Billion worth of salad imports from India, that we would have bought for £3 Billion from Spain ?

Of course though, the government is going to want to get loads of revenue from import duty it adds onto imports and blame the EU or WTO. Its a lie, we will choose what import duty we want to impose ( up to the WTO
maximums ). We won’t have to apply import duty imposed on us by the EU, the WTO or anyone.

Ok. Exports to the EU will be subject to WTO maximums if the EU don’t chose to give us better deals, but, the falling Pound should just mean prices for the EU going back to 4 years ago.

It’s not in Project Fears interest to just say if the EU don’t give us a deal these are the tariffs we will impose on EU goods. Which could be anywhere from zero to the WTO maximums.
The EU are clear on their import duties on our exports, they will either be as now or WTO maximums.
It’s the UK being fuzzy and worrying everyone.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 12:59 pm

TL;DR - we can't simply "fall back onto WTO rules", and no deal is certainly worse than a bad deal.

Huge post that no-one will ever read:

This isn't directly in response to the ericbee123's post, but as it's been mentioned; one of the most depressing things about Brexit is the complete lack of understanding of what "WTO Rules" mean. It's not the fault of those who support leave. Who in their right mind has the time or inclination to get into this stuff if they don't have to? But it's a failure of the news organisations and our leaders to properly explain to us what they are.

Once again, this isn't me launching an argument or an opinion against Brexit, it is just a fact. One the Brexiteers will have to face at some point if we leave the EU in a "no deal" scenario. Our leaders should have given us the information a long time ago, rather than some more nonsense "no deal is better than a bad deal" which means the sum total of bugger all.

By the way, we're all in it for the ride now. Legally speaking, there is very little that can be done to revoke the triggering of Article 50. The clock is ticking, for better or worse. I personally don't think there ever was, but regardless, there is certainly no "project fear" anymore. The run-down has commenced, and there are very very few legal mechanisms to stop it.

Brexiteers have long hailed the prospect of "no deal" not being a problem, because we can "fall back onto WTO rules". It seems very few people actually look at what WTO rules mean. The first point, is that WTO is not an escape from the EU if our attempted deal with them goes awry. Successful membership of the WTO is directly related to how successful we are in our negotiation with the EU.

I'm paraphrasing a concise summary. The reality is even more complicated.

The WTO has a terrible (but fair) rule called "most favoured nation". It's the opposite of what it says. It means as a nation you cannot discriminate your tariffs (you have to get a trade deal to do that). A good example would be that if we wanted to drop our tariffs on beef to zero with the EU, we would have to drop it with everyone else. We could, theoretically, drop our tariffs with the EU to zero, but we would become a tariff free nation. Cheap knock-offs would flood the market, hundreds of thousands would lose their jobs, and most importantly, we become the least attractive nation to ever trade with. We would have no way of negotiating trade deals. We already have our tariffs at zero, and so we'd be trying to haggle a deal on something we already give away for free.

Likewise, the EU cannot ignore the "most favoured nation" rule, either. It has to apply the same tariffs upon us as it does the rest of the world. That's not Junker being a revengeful little twerp, it's simply a legal mechanism. If they didn't the entire trading bloc will be inundated with successful WTO disputes from other nations. Without a deal, we would get the same tariffs applied to us as, say, Uzbekistan. Given that the UK and the EU have had decades and decades of close cooperation, and businesses built upon the principle that things are easier in the EU than they are with the rest of the world, a vast number of businesses will be subjected to tariffs that would be no different than the rest of the world.

That's the easy part. That's just the basic rule of how the WTO works and how that would apply to Britain. The hard part follows.

Each member of the 163(? -IIRC) member WTO has two of what are known as "schedules". One for services, one for goods. These are vast impenetrable documents that set out exactly how you as a nation, or a trading body, act economically with the rest of the world. They're like that Apple user agreement you ignore but agree to, but on steroids. They set out everything, right down to the tariff price of beef, or how much of your financial system foreign banks are allowed to become involved with.

No-one really knows the situation, but it's likely that Britain has a pair of schedules, as opposed to doesn't, which is good. What Britain needs to do is extract its pair of Schedules, and present them to the WTO as their own documents, rather than (as they always have been, and as they were originally drafted) under the umbrella of the EU. However, the WTO was set up in 1995. The UK's schedules were originally drafted, and have always been, inextricably linked with those of other EU member states, and the EU as an entity itself. We have to pick through these painstakingly working out what applies to us, and what applies to the EU and other EU member states. This will take years. Imagine everything we do with the EU, and everything the EU does with the rest of the world involving us. We will have to split more hairs than there are on the heads of all of the lawyers in the negotiating room. And we only have 9 months left to do it.

Furthermore, the WTO has zero rules for how a country can extract its schedules from an existing trading union. There has never been any need. No nation has been stupid enough to try it. It's uncharted water. Legally and regulatory-speaking, that means that it will take time. So much time. So much backwards and forwards-ing. This isn't a simple, streamlined process.

And all the while, any one of the 163 member states can raise a protest against Britain if it thinks things are unfair. This includes both EU states, and the EU itself. If we come out of EU trade deal discussions with a bitter taste in the mouth and no deal, and we try to extract our schedules deciding on a percentage tariff rate to Australia, but Germany is unhappy with that percentage because it manufactures most of the parts for those electronic goods, and we only do final assembly, Germany can lodge a protest. And the way the WTO works is that protests beget protests. A sudden compromise with Germany may then annoy Australians, or even another nation where the raw materials come from, so *they* lodge a protest, and on and on and on.

This leaves the UK vulnerable. The entire WTO membership has to be happy with our schedules. Any one of 163 trading entities, each with their own agendas, may trigger a dispute. No matter how spurious. And don't be under any doubt that these member states, with their established WTO membership and trade deals in place, will squeeze the UK's vulnerability. It's how trade works. It is predatory. Each nation is prowling around looking out for their own interests. If there's a crack they can stick a screwdriver into and open up, you can be guaranteed that is exactly what they will do. It's not a back-slapping affair the news portrays it. It's razor-sharp negotiation. All that "history of friendship" and "special relationship" guff falls by the wayside and is left outside of the door. Especially so given a man like Trump who is obsessed with deals exists in the White House. To assume an easy ride would be a grave mistake.

"So how did all the WTO member states manage it, then?" Good question. They sorted out their schedules a long, long, long time before joining. So that when they presented them, they knew that the schedules would be accepted, or had done as much as possible to reduce the risk of protest. And they drafted them (mostly) from scratch. As said, no-one has ever extracted schedules from a trading bloc like the EU and then re-presented them to the WTO. We don't have a clean slate.

And that's not even talking about the myriad of other issues. Spain could lodge a pretty dastardly dispute against us for fishing rights. Hell, that could open up other diplomatic problems. They lodge a crippling protest against us in the WTO arena, and only agree to our terms if we agree to give them Gibraltar. Or Argentina, with their beef and wine, could put a strangle-hold on the UK's trade, in return for concessions on The Falklands?

So, ok, we're going into the realms of the hypothetical, but not outlandishly so. The moment we triggered Article 50 Spain started posturing about Gibraltar (and then some stupid Tory MP mentioned war). So this is not project fear anymore. Article 50 clock is ticking. There's very little we can do to revoke it. It is happening. I have nothing to gain from inciting fear into people. These are just hard facts, and dangers associated with these facts.

We won't be the only ones. The EU will also be doing the same thing, and it'll be just as difficult for them. It needs the WTO to approve its schedules once we have extracted ours. From a very simple numbers point of view, Britain wont even be at the front of the queue. The EU is much, much larger, and were the ones to present schedules to the WTO in the '90s anyway, and are therefore more likely to be ahead in the queue than little old us.

IF we left with failed trade deal negotiations, the EU could at the very same time also be a hostile actor towards us in the WTO schedules presentation. True, we could also be a hostile actor to them, but again, the numbers speak for themselves. There are simply more of them. There is more money, and there are more goods and services traded.

So, the only way to survive this would be to extract our schedules, and change precisely dick. We can't. The EU has a 10% tariff rate on cars, so we will have it. The slightest tinkering will likely set off an immensely volatile dispute/protest process. The only way for Britain to just survive, not even prosper, just survive, is to keep everything exactly the same as it was under the EU. Which tanks the entire point of Brexit. But even worse, it means Britain will still be a slave to a trading bloc of countries to which it no longer belongs.

Once the UK starts tinkering with the EU tariffs and quotas and existing deals, it tips dominoes that start falling everywhere.

This summary, and it is just that, barely scratches the surface. And that's even before tariff-rate quotas, but I think I've punished whomever is still reading this enough for one day.

This is the point of Brexit. It's complex. It's boring. It's a legal and regulatory nightmare. Simply waving your little Union Flag and saying "they need us more than we need them!" shows a complete, lack of understanding of the whole process.

This is understandable. As I started this post, who in their right mind even cares about this sort of boring guff if they don't have to? Well, given the pointless patriotism like Farage, boris, JRM, Gove, IDS and the rest farted into the wind, and the BBC lapped up because people loved it, we now all have to. They've forced us to have to research and care and know about this stuff now.

I've always said it; always, always, always, beware men and women with simple solutions to very complex problems. We can't just "fall back" onto WTO rules. And no amount of "you lost, get over it!" rhetoric will change that.

The government is not yet even preparing for this. They are working towards trying to secure some deal from the EU so we don't have to use the WTO as a safety net. Preparation for this sort of stuff, for trading entities as economically massive and influential as ours and the EU, takes years. We haven't even started it yet, and we've only got nine months on the unstoppable clock. And Boris and David Davies now see it as a good time to play politics.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby tankbuster on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 1:07 pm

I think the answer to my original question is No. What a ridiculous situation to get into where nobody in an argument wins. Regardless of party politics, this must be the worst UK government ever and very badly timed to coincide with the worst opposition. I don't think there has ever been a time when political incompetency cam close to where we are now.
Trevor C
recent and not so recent pictures here https://trevorc28a.wixsite.com/trevspics
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