Spelling and Grammar Discussion

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Wissam24
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by Wissam24 »

Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

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RRconway
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by RRconway »

Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. Everything else is minor and often incorrect vocabulary choices.

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


Thanks for the adult reply Sam.
Minor errors are what people are being criticised for. Pick some standard, find the courage to stick to them and stop being a hypocrite.
Last edited by RRconway on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jalfrezi
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by jalfrezi »

Guys, this has drifted somewhat off topic, if you need a separate standards thread then by all means, go ahead.

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RRconway
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by RRconway »

jalfrezi wrote:Guys, this has drifted somewhat off topic, if you need a separate standards thread then by all means, go ahead.


Sorry Jalfrezi, said my bit, no more from me. I have to keep rewinding bake off :lol: :lol: :pinkwafer: :pinkwafer:
I know you think you understood what I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what I said is not what I meant.

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Just a thought, isnt this thread drift just so............. 558?

although the best and biggest thread on UKAR did go round in circles, it was certainly more interesting than punctuation, good or bad. :facepalm:
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jalfrezi
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by jalfrezi »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Just a thought, isnt this thread drift just so............. 558?

although the best and biggest thread on UKAR did go round in circles, it was certainly more interesting than punctuation, good or bad. :facepalm:


Have to disagree wholeheartedly with you there. The Vulcan threads were more than 400 pages (over both threads) of rubbish, with about 10 pages of genuinely useful info.

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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by Mooshie1956 »

vulcan558 wrote:So if all goes to plan you are looking at say £300 a year.
So a joining fee per year of say £2.50 or the price of a cup of Coffe as they say on TV
To be honest is a the £300 is cheap for such a site.
Worth paying back the time passion Paul as put into the site for so many years.
I've been on here since the very early days and
Have had some great times and the odx ban or 2 :clown:

But even while on a ban. Paul still let me join the group in the UKAR private encloser at the Kemble airshow.
Paul and is good wife still entertained the kids
My young son at the time loved there hospitality and kindness over the years in that marquee at kemble.

End of the day Paul as kept his baby of UKAR going for 20plus years and now due to poor health he is seeing through no fault of his own is passion for this site and other things he does like Flying light aircraft etc being taken away from him just like is health can not be very good for someone.
Time Pauls efforts need rewarding back from all us takers.


And just to keep the spelling check going why hasn't anyone pick up on this poor spelling. It's a constant with this poster but it is never corrected, unlike that of some other posters on here, one mistake and it's jumped on by the grammar police.
I've also had a ban warning over the use of slang terms but again I see it used by certain others and never picked up on. If you want to set standard then it must be applied to all, without exception.
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IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by UKTopgun »

This thread has drifted amusingly. I have to say that RR is quite right, though. The spelling in Wissam's post is sound but his structuring is poor and his post does not flow. Sorry, but if people are going to endulge in virtual posturing, they should be able to walk the talk.

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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by tankbuster »

Don't we all have our own tolerances, it's not just a case of right or wrong. I'm fairly forgiving especially if I can see it might just be a typo but I would put everybody who uses "could have", "would have" and "should have" in the stocks.
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CJS
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by CJS »

I'm with you there!

On the point about paragraphs: we teach the children that you start a new paragraph when the subject, time or place change (and, technically, when a new speaker starts speaking in narrative).

This seems to work well. It breaks up writing in to coherent, easy to follow sections.

Sometimes these might be one sentence or sometimes several.

Something else we teach them, from about year 2 (6/7 years old), is to start reading their own (and others') work through for mistakes and places they can improve their writing.

It's really hard to do and takes a lot of practice, but when they start to get it, the standard of their writing really comes on.

It's perhaps worth mentioning, in the context of this thread, that we also teach these editing skills using technology, such as hand held spell checkers and built in spell checkers on computer software, as well as with good old fashioned dictionaries.
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Tommy
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by Tommy »

Southendnick wrote:

Some people have conditions that make full punctuation difficult, I myself am dyslexic, and unless you have it yourself, its hard to understand that by the time the messages in your brain get to your fingertips they go a little confuddling and small errors pop up and no matter how many times people flag it up it keeps happening it's not something we can help, it's in our make up.

Now if there are any grammar errors in this post, no need to point it out cupcake as it will NOT sink in!


I'm severely dyslexic, and obviously always have been, and I both write for and moderate this place.

This place isn't anti-dyslexic and isn't anti-error. To me, it's more that people care about what they write. In the cases of people like you and I, we are cursed with having to make an extra effort, and we still won't pick everything up.

But saying that pointing out grammatical errors won't sink in is, to me, a bit silly and not at all due to dyslexia. I share the frustrations, and it takes me a long time to get a piece of writing ready for UKAR. I make very extensive use of the "preview" button (which social media doesn't have and I think is part of why standards slip there) before a post and still I get things incorrect.

I don't understand the militant refusal to learn the correct way of doing things.

I suspect the whole "grammar nazi" or equally senseless "we are not in school now" thing is always borne out of some subconscious need to regain some control after being embarrassed at being corrected. Except being corrected isn't embarrassing, but refusing point blank to learn the correct way of doing things for the sake of saving face is.

I'm also typing this on my phone and yeah, there are some stupid autocarrots. The iOS software in particular used to seem to have a fetish for putting an apostrophe in plural. The staff here understand all of that, and they have respect and time for anyone with learning difficulties - they've tolerated me and my slow-writing and heated defence of members subject to possible moderating action for nearly half a decade.

What we don't have time for, though, is a complete point-blank-boil-over refusal to accept a really tiny simple spelling mistake, and instead of just taking it onboard, the full-on broadside "grammar nazi" approach. We correct your spelling so you compare us to one of the worst groups of people in history? Real proportionate, that.

Just clear and intelligible English. That's all.

And I think we are oversold on the picking, too. Can anyone PM me with just ten examples of mods doing unnecessary picking in the last 12 months?

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

No-one is asking for, nor expecting error-free, perfect grammar and spelling every time, but what the moderators are quite right to expect is English of a standard any primary school leaver could muster, let alone grown men.

Things like their/they’re/there and “would have” instead of the idiot klaxon that is “would/could of”. The proper spelling of “hangar” and knowing there is no “e” on the end of “lens”. UKAR has always been a cut above other forums for high standards of English, and this should be actively policed, especially when posters are the first to scream blue murder when the media make a mistake in an aviation story.

I saw one forum post, with much lower standards than UKAR, talking about the F-22 “rapter” a while back. I trust the moderators never to let UKAR slip that far.

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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by MiG_Eater »

I think it comes down to intention.

Quite often there'll be a heated debate going on in a thread and a small but totally understandable error will be picked up by one of the belligerents in what appears to be an attempt to win an argument. This is just stupid and only serves to clog up the forum with junk as well as probably putting people off joining.

On the other hand, a genuine correction in the spirit of helpfulness can only be a good thing - but wouldn't this be more appropriate by PM?

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jalfrezi
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by jalfrezi »

I think there's a fine line to be walked here, we certainly don't want to discourage new users from posting on here because we're seen as grammar zealots, conversely we don't want to slip down to Facebook levels of English.

I've made the mistake of using the wrong there/their before, and it's easily done if you're in a rush, however just reading through what you're about to post before hitting submit will usually catch most of these. Unfortunately the inbuilt spell checkers won't pick this up, so I think there needs to be some slack to be cut with incorrect words that are spelt correctly. The same with grammar, it's probably my weakest area and I usually have to read things through multiple times before I'm happy with the flow, but, seeing a paragraph of text with no commas or periods usually means I won't even bother reading it - same with text speak, there's no excuse for it.

Personally, I'm happy with the level of English on the forum, there are a couple of exceptions who need to try harder, but I can't think of anything recently that's made me think about waving my moderator stick. :cuppa:

(I've read this through half a dozen times.....)

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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by starbuck »

I think it also matters who is doing the moderating. It's one thing to be corrected by the moderators but there are a fair few on here who decide they need to be the self appointed Samuel Johnson of UKAR, quite often when they are knee deep in a heated discussion which isn't really going anywhere.

There are also ways to do it. I've seen plenty of corrections made on here with a simple or humorous comment that can only be seen as friendly and then there are others that are cruel, mocking, mean and belittling. What happened last night and the reason this thread has been split from the future of UKAR thread was a good case in point. Just a pity it was a moderator that was doing it.

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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by Mooshie1956 »

Can I add,I don't feel the problem is with the moderators on the spelling and grammar used, but more some general members that feel the need to jump in and correct someones mistake. I don't know if it's for kudos or what, but some seem to take great delight in pointing out mistakes by some but will leave others alone. Isn't that a form of bullying, which I would presume isn't allowed on these forums.
On the point of "should have, should've, should have" etc. I think a lot of people know this to be wrong but like a lot of things in life times and things change, and it seems to be more acceptable to use it now. You only need to look at old English used say 200 years ago and you'll notice a lot of spelling changes, we could well be going through another change now, after all a lot of other things have changed over the last 20 to 50 years.
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by jalfrezi »

Mooshie1956 wrote:Can I add,I don't feel the problem is with the moderators on the spelling and grammar used, but more some general members that feel the need to jump in and correct someones mistake. I don't know if it's for kudos or what, but some seem to take great delight in pointing out mistakes by some but will leave others alone. Isn't that a form of bullying, which I would presume isn't allowed on these forums.
On the point of "should have, should've, should have" etc. I think a lot of people know this to be wrong but like a lot of things in life times and things change, and it seems to be more acceptable to use it now. You only need to look at old English used say 200 years ago and you'll notice a lot of spelling changes, we could well be going through another change now, after all a lot of other things have changed over the last 20 to 50 years.


I know what you mean, I've seen users correct other users spelling/grammar as some sort of pointless point scoring exercise, what they don't realise - particularly when it's done in a smart ass manner - is most other users look at that and lower their opinion of the correcter, and will be less likely to interact with them in future - further weakening the forum as a whole.

You're correct English is constantly changing, and I imagine that 'could-of/would-of' will become more widespread and socially acceptable over time, not necessarily a good thing IMO. Had to put the dashes in, or they're automatically corrected!

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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by Brevet Cable »

Mooshie1956 wrote:....but more some general members that feel the need to jump in and correct someones mistake. I don't know if it's for kudos or what, but some seem to take great delight in pointing out mistakes by some but will leave others alone.

It's usually one poster in particular, who otherwise contributes very little to any other topics.

That said, some of the Moderators can come across as patronising when correcting posters - if you feel the need to pull someone up on their spelling or grammar, it's far better to do so via PM rather than on the actual forum. If the poster repeatedly fails to make any attempt to correct their errors, then do what the Forum Rules say and start deleting their posts.

When it comes to poor spelling & grammar, your average MOD & Government press release is often littered with them, not to mention news articles by the so-called professional media ( including the BBC )
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RRconway
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by RRconway »

Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


I know I said I wouldn’t comment again, but since you edited your post after I’d commented on it, I will reply again.
Your edited post above, is even worse than the last. It has a sentence that runs on for far too long and contains no punctuation, rendering it almost entirely unreadable.
Not sure if you have done this intentionally?
Your sarcastic remarks in this and the last post (that you edited out hut are still visible in my quote) are desperate and in the first post, aggressive and uncalled for.
These are the sort of behaviours that put UKAR under a cloud, and as a moderator you should be getting rid of them, not using them.
Disgraceful and Immature Sam.
I know you think you understood what I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what I said is not what I meant.

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Wissam24
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by Wissam24 »

RRconway wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


I know I said I wouldn’t comment again, but since you edited your post after I’d commented on it, I will reply again.
Your edited post above, is even worse than the last. It has a sentence that runs on for far too long and contains no punctuation, rendering it almost entirely unreadable.
Not sure if you have done this intentionally?
Your sarcastic remarks in this and the last post (that you edited out hut are still visible in my quote) are desperate and in the first post, aggressive and uncalled for.
These are the sort of behaviours that put UKAR under a cloud, and as a moderator you should be getting rid of them, not using them.
Disgraceful and Immature Sam.


If you struggle to read a sentence of that length, or can't handle a paragraph more than one sentence long, then I would honestly suggest you're not best placed to attempt corrections of other people's language skills.
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rockfordstone
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by rockfordstone »

there has to be a good standard of English on a forum, it is a written form of communication after all. everyone should be responsible for checking what they post. mistakes do get made, no one is perfect, but efforts should be made to ensure your message is clear and legible.

there is, however, a society of grammar police who have grown within social media and in a lot of cases it's only to cause an argument.

the simple response from me is if someone correcting your grammar offends you ignore it.

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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by MiG_Eater »

Wissam24 wrote:
RRconway wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


I know I said I wouldn’t comment again, but since you edited your post after I’d commented on it, I will reply again.
Your edited post above, is even worse than the last. It has a sentence that runs on for far too long and contains no punctuation, rendering it almost entirely unreadable.
Not sure if you have done this intentionally?
Your sarcastic remarks in this and the last post (that you edited out hut are still visible in my quote) are desperate and in the first post, aggressive and uncalled for.
These are the sort of behaviours that put UKAR under a cloud, and as a moderator you should be getting rid of them, not using them.
Disgraceful and Immature Sam.


If you struggle to read a sentence of that length, or can't handle a paragraph more than one sentence long, then I would honestly suggest you're not best placed to attempt corrections of other people's language skills.


It is very easy to ridicule someone for criticising a verbose sentence by calling them stupid, but the sentence is pretty hard to understand.

Orwell had it right:

Never use a metaphor, simile or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
Never use a long word where a short one will do.
If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

Never use the passive where you can use the active.
Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
Break any of these rules sooner than say anything barbarous.

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RRconway
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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by RRconway »

Wissam24 wrote:
RRconway wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


I know I said I wouldn’t comment again, but since you edited your post after I’d commented on it, I will reply again.
Your edited post above, is even worse than the last. It has a sentence that runs on for far too long and contains no punctuation, rendering it almost entirely unreadable.
Not sure if you have done this intentionally?
Your sarcastic remarks in this and the last post (that you edited out hut are still visible in my quote) are desperate and in the first post, aggressive and uncalled for.
These are the sort of behaviours that put UKAR under a cloud, and as a moderator you should be getting rid of them, not using them.
Disgraceful and Immature Sam.


If you struggle to read a sentence of that length, or can't handle a paragraph more than one sentence long, then I would honestly suggest you're not best placed to attempt corrections of other people's language skills.


Again Sam, you are just resorting to insults and are unable to explain why you have not used punctuation.
You also keep failing to respond to my other criticisms of your online behaviour.
Both of these things tell me that you know that I have called you on things you know are true, but that you are not man enough to admit.
Once more, immature, playground behaviour that you keep falling back on.
As you can only insult and show aggression instead of discuss, I’ll leave it there for now.
I know you think you understood what I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what I said is not what I meant.

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Re: IMPORTANT - Future of UKAR

Post by starbuck »

Wissam24 wrote:
RRconway wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Quite incorrect. Putting virtually every sentence on a new paragraph is sloppy and amateurish, and breaks up the reader's flow. A below-GCSE level of English there. Everything else is minor and often incorrect where they aren't simply irrelevant vocabulary choices that are apparently seized upon by an amnesiac who can't remember even the previous clause they were reading nor has any idea how English has evolved past the 19th century. For someone who doesn't seem to care you've certainly gone out of your way to pull mistakes out of the blue. Desperation is ugly. 3/10 see me after class

If you're going to talk big, make sure you write cheques your mouth can bank.


I know I said I wouldn’t comment again, but since you edited your post after I’d commented on it, I will reply again.
Your edited post above, is even worse than the last. It has a sentence that runs on for far too long and contains no punctuation, rendering it almost entirely unreadable.
Not sure if you have done this intentionally?
Your sarcastic remarks in this and the last post (that you edited out hut are still visible in my quote) are desperate and in the first post, aggressive and uncalled for.
These are the sort of behaviours that put UKAR under a cloud, and as a moderator you should be getting rid of them, not using them.
Disgraceful and Immature Sam.


If you struggle to read a sentence of that length, or can't handle a paragraph more than one sentence long, then I would honestly suggest you're not best placed to attempt corrections of other people's language skills.


I can do both of those things, but even if I couldn't that doesn't take away from the fact that that is a terrible sentence. Sorry, it just is.

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The Baron
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Re: Spelling and Grammar Discussion

Post by The Baron »

A lot of this is all rather petty. Several admins now have given good reasons why a suitable level of written English is desired.
Any further discussion is really irrelevant as everybody here agreed to the rules when they signed up.
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