The UKAR politics thread

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

He’s no longer an MEP

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by RAF4EVER »

Thought he was until the end of the Brexit transition period.

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

I could be wrong, but I think they went on Jan 31st.

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starbuck
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

Wiki says he's an Ex.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

"When the UK leaves the EU on 31 January, it will no longer have representation in EU decision-making. The 73 UK MEPs will vacate their seats in the European Parliament (EP). Some of their seats will be taken up by new MEPs from the remaining 27 EU Member States. " - House of Commons Library

So no. he is no longer an MEP

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

He's an interesting case, is Farage. Interesting in that he says he's against the establishment, but being a MEP and someone who is granted special status to visit the USA to speak on a platform next to the (outgoing) President of America is pretty much qualification for being an actual member of The Establishment.

And if you give him money to whatever issue party he happens to front today (tomorrow it might be the Dog Poop Party (Pick up or get out!)) then you can't complain for being had.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon 02 Nov 2020, 3:18 pm
He's an interesting case, is Farage. Interesting in that he says he's against the establishment, but being a MEP and someone who is granted special status to visit the USA to speak on a platform next to the (outgoing) President of America is pretty much qualification for being an actual member of The Establishment.

And if you give him money to whatever issue party he happens to front today (tomorrow it might be the Dog Poop Party (Pick up or get out!)) then you can't complain for being had.
i'd argue that he not only qualifies, but is a member of the establishment.
he was a founding member of UKIP in 1993 hes been receiving money as an MEP since 1999. thats nearly 30 years in the political sphere for a many who is only 56.
any money he has made and continues to make is for his political position, as is any opportunity or media work.
he's been un UK politics for longer than most of the "establishment" (including johnson)

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

Difficult to know which thread to put this, but anyway:

Support for Welsh independence has gained a hell of a lot of traction this year - the country has a lot to catch up on when you consider the likes of Scotland, but Tory incompetence seems to be helping to close that gap.

Support for the YesCymru campaign was at 2,000 members at the start of the year. Last week there were at about 8,500. Johnson’s lockdown announcement over the weekend saw membership rocket to over 12,000 last night. Thats a huge climb. To put that into perspective, it now has more members than all other political parties in Wales bar Labour (who have about 20k).

The news is being slow to pick up on it, but that’s a hell of an increase.

From friends and family, it seems that the refusal to bring back furlough for Welsh lockdown but bringing it back immediately for English lockdown has a lot of cut-through.

Johnson is literally damaging the Union with every failing.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

he's doing a good job of showing he doesn't care about other parts of the country. the whole fight with manchester over financial support and then instantly giving full support to everyone a week later when the south gets affected... that has to piss off the north

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

Welsh and Scottish independence or you could argue English independence from the less productive parts of the UK.

Whatever, just think of the money the government could throw at SERCO to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

rockfordstone wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:19 am
he's doing a good job of showing he doesn't care about other parts of the country. the whole fight with manchester over financial support and then instantly giving full support to everyone a week later when the south gets affected... that has to piss off the north
I don't think that's accurate. Manchester appears to have been largely a one off, the government were able to get deals done with many of the other northern local authorities that went into Tier 3 behind the scenes without the to and fro politicising that seemed to take place with Manchester

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by vandal »

iainpeden wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
Welsh and Scottish independence or you could argue English independence from the less productive parts of the UK.

Whatever, just think of the money the government could throw at SERCO to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke.
Well, just you remember then, when Scotland gets independence & we're back in the EU, don't you be travelling North of the Wall for to use NHS Scotland for free healthcare when Boris has sold yours off.😄

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

iainpeden wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
Welsh and Scottish independence or you could argue English independence from the less productive parts of the UK.

Whatever, just think of the money the government could throw at SERCO to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke.
you mean the money they would throw at them to FAIL to rebuild Hadrians wall and Offa's dyke

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

starbuck wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:35 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:19 am
he's doing a good job of showing he doesn't care about other parts of the country. the whole fight with manchester over financial support and then instantly giving full support to everyone a week later when the south gets affected... that has to piss off the north
I don't think that's accurate. Manchester appears to have been largely a one off, the government were able to get deals done with many of the other northern local authorities that went into Tier 3 behind the scenes without the to and fro politicising that seemed to take place with Manchester
I’m not as in tune to the local politics of the North as I am to where I live, obviously, but wasn’t there a revolt of “Red Wall” Tory MPs recently for precisely the reason RS says above? I could be wrong, or it could have been for something else, but I thought that there was something about that there.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

There was but I believe they were all in or around the Greater Manchester area. I too could be wrong though. To be honest there are so many Tory MP's in the north now it's difficult to keep track......

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Mooshie1956 »

Tommy wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:52 pm
starbuck wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:35 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:19 am
he's doing a good job of showing he doesn't care about other parts of the country. the whole fight with manchester over financial support and then instantly giving full support to everyone a week later when the south gets affected... that has to piss off the north
I don't think that's accurate. Manchester appears to have been largely a one off, the government were able to get deals done with many of the other northern local authorities that went into Tier 3 behind the scenes without the to and fro politicising that seemed to take place with Manchester
I’m not as in tune to the local politics of the North as I am to where I live, obviously, but wasn’t there a revolt of “Red Wall” Tory MPs recently for precisely the reason RS says above? I could be wrong, or it could have been for something else, but I thought that there was something about that there.
As far as I can remember being a Manc, it was most not all of the Greater Manchester Tory MP's. To be honest I was surprised that Liverpool didn't do the same as Manchester, but then again there Gym's defied the order to close.
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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

Another day, another U-Turn:


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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Zoom »

So who's the more deranged?

Trump who thinks he can ignore the result of the 2nd biggest democratic election on the planet because he's err Trump

or PMBJ and his shower of yes men / woman thinking they can take the UK out of a non WTO trading relationship with err everyone except Japan and Switzerland (plus a few others) because that's what the UK voted for?

:upside_down:

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by RAF4EVER »

Zoom wrote:
Sun 08 Nov 2020, 5:03 pm
So who's the more deranged?

Trump who thinks he can ignore the result of the 2nd biggest democratic election on the planet because he's err Trump

or PMBJ and his shower of yes men / woman thinking they can take the UK out of a non WTO trading relationship with err everyone except Japan and Switzerland (plus a few others) because that's what the UK voted for?

:upside_down:
And what is the 1st biggest democratic election??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by ArabJazzie »

iainpeden wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
Welsh and Scottish independence or you could argue English independence from the less productive parts of the UK.

Whatever, just think of the money the government could throw at SERCO to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke.
Any chance that you can back that claim up?
52 in a year! We must be certifiable!

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Zoom »

RAF4EVER wrote:
Sun 08 Nov 2020, 10:29 pm

And what is the 1st biggest democratic election??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
India

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

Zoom wrote:
Sun 08 Nov 2020, 5:03 pm
So who's the more deranged?

Trump who thinks he can ignore the result of the 2nd biggest democratic election on the planet because he's err Trump

or PMBJ and his shower of yes men / woman thinking they can take the UK out of a non WTO trading relationship with err everyone except Japan and Switzerland (plus a few others) because that's what the UK voted for?

:upside_down:
has to be trump. PMBJ and his team know fully well they can't deliver the brexit they promised but they know they must deliver something. the key for them is for being able to pin the blame on the EU and Remainers.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

ArabJazzie wrote:
Sun 08 Nov 2020, 10:56 pm
iainpeden wrote:
Tue 03 Nov 2020, 9:45 am
Welsh and Scottish independence or you could argue English independence from the less productive parts of the UK.

Whatever, just think of the money the government could throw at SERCO to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke.
Any chance that you can back that claim up?
Happily - getting bored during lockdown so happy for a heated discussion.

First point is that I love going to Scotland and my family is originally from south west Scotland, Talisker is my drug of choice and I've even been known to eat haggis. Second point is that I love walking in Wales and visiting the mountain railways. I'm also strongly of the belief that the UK is much stronger together than separately.

I also think that, while the current UK government is making a complete horlicks over the management of the communication about the virus and centralisation of test and trace the Welsh and Scottish governments have been making their own decisions about lockdowns etc as much because they could as because it was the an effective regional approach.

Now as to the specific statement - It's based upon my understanding of how the Barnett formula works which I believe is how monies from central UK government are shared around the 4 countries of the UK - It's shown in the table below and although they are now historic figures I believe that a similar position exists now. You can see, for example, that in 93/94 Scotland's grant was 1/3 more generous (per head of population) than England.

Definition England Scotland Wales Northern Ireland
Actual spend in 1976–77 100 122 106 135
Recommended spend in 1979 Needs Assessment 100 116 109 131
Actual spend in 1993–94 100 133 122 127
Recommended spend in 1993 Needs Assessment 100 115 112 122

As I am sure you realise, and we have both been on here long enough to have enjoyed previous "discussions", my comment was designed to counter the Welsh and Scottish devolutionists on here and put the point that England has a voice too.

Or I could - in the same mould as Terry in one of the original "Likely Lads" episodes - just dislike anybody who doesn't live in my area.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by toom317 »

Nice set of figures Iain, but that's only what we got under the formula. How much did the economies of Scotland, Ireland and Wales, contribute to the "UK" economy in 1993?
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Zoom »

Andrew Marr pointed out last week that fishing accounts for 0.2% of UK experts although this (snipped) article suggests even less.

The salient point is that the UK is threatening to bring down an deal with the EU over this among other things, so it begs the question are they actually actively pursuing a WTO deal?

One man’s fish is another man’s poisson. Not for much longer, it seems.


The nets of the UK and its maritime neighbours have been inextricably tangled for centuries. Cutting them apart will be calamitous for some European fleets – especially for boats from Brittany, Normandy and the Pas de Calais. It will also be disastrous for locally important and ecologically sustainable parts of the British industry.

Fisheries (0.12% of the UK economy) have been a powerful symbol for Brexiteers. They may now become one of the starkest examples of the folly of no deal.

British shellfish sales to the EU (mostly France and Spain) are worth £430m a year – more than a quarter of all UK fish exports by value. They are vital to small-scale fishermen in Scotland and the West Country. They will be devastated overnight if the UK loses paper-free access to the EU single market.

A myth has been propagated by Brexiteers. There is a single “British fishing industry” which will benefit from reclaiming the “60/70/80% of British fish” caught by EU boats.

No, there isn’t. There are competing interests. English v Scottish; deep-sea fishing v inshore fishing; industrial v family-scale boats; fishers v processors. Some of the most vibrant, locally important and ecologically respectful parts of the UK industry have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Brexit.

They depend on shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langoustines (crayfish) that are quota-free or are overwhelmingly allocated to the UK. More than 80% is sold to the continent (mostly Spain and France). This trade has grown large because of the border-free EU single market.

‘Other British fishermen, wound up by the xenophobic rhetoric of Fishing for Leave, will expect to claim their off-shore “bonanza” immediately.’
Post-Brexit, trucks arriving in France with fish caught by scores of small boats will have to supply scores of “origin” and “health” documents – one for each boat and each catch. Traders will have to find UK local inspectors in working hours to verify the origin of the seafood and vets to certify its quality.

In the meantime, several large British boats, dependent on EU-agreed quotas in Norwegian waters, will have to suspend fishing if EU law lapses in the UK on 31 October. Other British fishermen, wound up by the xenophobic rhetoric of Fishing for Leave, will expect to claim their off-shore “bonanza” immediately. Since no new quotas have been drawn up, they look likely to be disappointed – and very angry.

Just how much extra fish might there eventually be for the British fleet? UK boats catch just 40% of the tonnage of fish caught in British waters but they already catch more than 60% by value.

French and German boats take a lot of saithe (a relative of the cod) which UK consumers don’t like. Much of the fish caught by Danish boats is so-called industrial species (sprats and horse mackerel) which go to feed pigs. Horse mackerel and chips, anyone?

Overall, the UK imports 70% of the fish we eat and exports 80% of what we catch. The UK already has most of the quotas for haddock and generous quotas for cod (which is anyway growing scarce once again).

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