The UKAR politics thread

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iainpeden
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat 01 Aug 2020, 7:47 am
Boris Johnson gets his own brother into the House of Lords. And Theresa May's husband?

They're taking the proverbial now.
It's called nepotism but given that May can't stand him and Jo Johnson resigned over Brexit it might come back to bite.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

vandal
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by vandal »

iainpeden wrote:
Sat 01 Aug 2020, 4:21 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat 01 Aug 2020, 7:47 am
Boris Johnson gets his own brother into the House of Lords. And Theresa May's husband?

They're taking the proverbial now.
It's called nepotism but given that May can't stand him and Jo Johnson resigned over Brexit it might come back to bite.
Ken Clarke nominated.

Probably the only decision PMBJ has got right.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

Is the current exams debacle this government's poll tax? Seems to be causing across the board misery and unfairness.

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iainpeden
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 6:28 pm
Is the current exams debacle this government's poll tax? Seems to be causing across the board misery and unfairness.
I suspect they are storing up a lot of votes for Labour from current 18, and probably 16 , year olds who will vote for anybody but the Tory candidate at the next election. Given the rumblings on the Tory back benches about track and trace, levels of Covid testing and now the exam results I wouldn't be surprised if BJ doesn't lead them into that election.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

vandal
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by vandal »

iainpeden wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 7:18 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 6:28 pm
Is the current exams debacle this government's poll tax? Seems to be causing across the board misery and unfairness.
I suspect they are storing up a lot of votes for Labour from current 18, and probably 16 , year olds who will vote for anybody but the Tory candidate at the next election. Given the rumblings on the Tory back benches about track and trace, levels of Covid testing and now the exam results I wouldn't be surprised if BJ doesn't lead them into that election.
Yet PMBJ is standing by the Education Secretary, as he did with Dominic Cummings.

Was slightly alarmed at a report yesterday about a Student female who lost her place at Uni, probably one of many, but what the alarming thing about it was was the wording 'feels like life was completely over / has been ruined'.

To say at such a young age that it feels like your life is over sends out entirely the wrong message to anyone & everyone taking their exams. Although the young lady in question may have said that, & even feels like it, the report need not have mentioned it, not directly anyway. - Exams are such a stressful occurrence in ones life as it is, but others might see this as is - that their life IS over.

I understand it can be devastating to hear you lost your place at Uni through no fault of your own, but I think it's irresponsible of the media to quote someone at such a young age saying *it made her feel like life "was completely over"*

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... k-53791736

verreli
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by verreli »

vandal wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 8:24 pm
iainpeden wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 7:18 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 6:28 pm
Is the current exams debacle this government's poll tax? Seems to be causing across the board misery and unfairness.
I suspect they are storing up a lot of votes for Labour from current 18, and probably 16 , year olds who will vote for anybody but the Tory candidate at the next election. Given the rumblings on the Tory back benches about track and trace, levels of Covid testing and now the exam results I wouldn't be surprised if BJ doesn't lead them into that election.
Yet PMBJ is standing by the Education Secretary, as he did with Dominic Cummings.

Was slightly alarmed at a report yesterday about a Student female who lost her place at Uni, probably one of many, but what the alarming thing about it was was the wording 'feels like life was completely over / has been ruined'.

To say at such a young age that it feels like your life is over sends out entirely the wrong message to anyone & everyone taking their exams. Although the young lady in question may have said that, & even feels like it, the report need not have mentioned it, not directly anyway. - Exams are such a stressful occurrence in ones life as it is, but others might see this as is - that their life IS over.

I understand it can be devastating to hear you lost your place at Uni through no fault of your own, but I think it's irresponsible of the media to quote someone at such a young age saying *it made her feel like life "was completely over"*

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... k-53791736
For me there are two issues here. First, even with the awards announced there has been yet more grade inflation. Do we think the youth of this country are getting brighter? In my experience this isn't the case. Capability remains more or less the same. By having ever more grade inflation exams are bordering on a pointless exercise and employers are taking less and less notice of results. In an attempt to moderate the over optimistic teachers, the government set themselves on a hiding to nothing. There is no fair way of executing this process so, for this year only, they should have graded everyone as the teachers submitted and pointed out the anomalous grade distribution which would have facilitated a reset next year. The less capable will simply fail at the next step anyhow.

The other issue is more systemic. I don't blame this girl for feeling this way. It's how she's been conditioned to think as a certain ideology spreads, much like a virus, through society. Question is, if we let it continue, what's the ultimate consequence for British society in terms of future global competitiveness? I suspect it won't be good.

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gamecock
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by gamecock »

I understand it can be devastating to hear you lost your place at Uni through no fault of your own, but I think it's irresponsible of the media to quote someone at such a young age saying *it made her feel like life "was completely over"*
I understand your point completely, but its very widespread and therefore worthy of reporting. What's happening is absolutely brutal, and completely unfair. Some shocking examples on Lewis Goodall's twitter feed this morning. It's not just uni places either, it's high quality apprenticeships as well.

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

It’s just always endless, endless, endless nastiness, incompetence and bad decisions.

I do wonder how bad a catastrocockup an MP has to make before it’s a resignable offence.

I know we get who we vote for, but this great country deserves *so* much more than these chancers and bloviating conmen.

RAF4EVER
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by RAF4EVER »

To resign I believe[my opinion] an MP has to have integrity,and it seems to me,that many of the current lot do not have that.It also seems to me that they only want to keep their nose in the trough, to be an MP, with all its perks,and none of the responsibility.

vandal
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by vandal »

Utter hypocrisy, this time from Dominic Raab.

Reading on the yellow banner scrolling across the bottom of the screen on Sky News -

BELARUS PROTESTS: Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab says "The UK does not accept" the results of the "Fraudulent Presidential Election" in Belarus and calls for an urgent investigation.

All well & good.

Where is OUR investigation into alleged interference in our elections?

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pbeardmore
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by pbeardmore »

I very rarely side with the gov but, on the exams issue, I do have some sympathy as there were no obvious options that were going to avoid what we are seeing. The media clearly exploits the "poor me", "entitlement" culture and focus on indivividual cases to add drama rather than taking a wider, statistical view. It's the nature of exams that some will be dissapointed. If everyone is happy with the results, then they have zero value.
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gamecock
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by gamecock »

What a glib response. Look at the individual stories to see the work some young people have put into this only to have their futures severely compromised. Bugger all to do with 'poor me' or 'entitlement' culture. We've had months to prepare for this, and it's a complete disaster.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

gamecock wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 10:06 am
What a glib response. Look at the individual stories to see the work some young people have put into this only to have their futures severely compromised. Bugger all to do with 'poor me' or 'entitlement' culture. We've had months to prepare for this, and it's a complete disaster.
What would your solution be then? I honestly haven't heard any other way of handling this that if chosen instead wouldn't have been criticised just as much.

You are correct we have had months to prepare for this and for once HMG didn't come to a knee jerk decision, they ran various models in that time to see what would produce the fairest set of results and this is what they came up with.

From what I can gather Scotland initially went along the same lines as England, were criticised, went for the populist route, revised the gradings and now this years results are 10% up on last year.

So what about those that didn't get into Uni last year or those that are going to try to get into Uni next year who are now going to be in competition with many of those from this years cohort who are going to defer a year?

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by rockfordstone »

iainpeden wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 7:18 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun 16 Aug 2020, 6:28 pm
Is the current exams debacle this government's poll tax? Seems to be causing across the board misery and unfairness.
I suspect they are storing up a lot of votes for Labour from current 18, and probably 16 , year olds who will vote for anybody but the Tory candidate at the next election. Given the rumblings on the Tory back benches about track and trace, levels of Covid testing and now the exam results I wouldn't be surprised if BJ doesn't lead them into that election.
i'm of the view that PMBJ will be gone as soon as brexit is technically delivered at the end of the transition period. he gets to go as "the man who delivered Brexit". the rabid brexiters will see him as a hero and completely ignore everything else. he can then blame any fallout on covid, the EU or his successor and sit there with reputation largely intact heckling from the sidelines. he won't be the one taking the fall when the true impact of brexit and covid comes to pass

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gamecock
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by gamecock »

What would your solution be then?
I can't begin to offer a solution as I have no expert knowledge of the system, but I know an unfair result when I see one. The algorithm is clearly punishing certain groups. A strong government shouldn't care about criticism, you'll never please everybody. NI now backtracking on the downgrades.

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

starbuck wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 10:22 am
gamecock wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 10:06 am
What a glib response. Look at the individual stories to see the work some young people have put into this only to have their futures severely compromised. Bugger all to do with 'poor me' or 'entitlement' culture. We've had months to prepare for this, and it's a complete disaster.
What would your solution be then?
Any solution has to be a fair one, and this plainly isn't fair. If results are up, say ten percent, then you would moderate down ten per cent. Across the board. Instead, they appear to have rigged the system so that results from elite schools have been left untouched, and those from sixth form colleges in traditionally unacademic areas have been heavily marked down. On what basis, that teachers from those areas somehow can't be trusted? or that 'those sort' of students couldn't possibly have worked hard and excelled?

That's beyond defence.
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starbuck
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 1:11 pm
Any solution has to be a fair one, and this plainly isn't fair. If results are up, say ten percent, then you would moderate down ten per cent. Across the board. Instead, they appear to have rigged the system so that results from elite schools have been left untouched, and those from sixth form colleges in traditionally unacademic areas have been heavily marked down. On what basis, that teachers from those areas somehow can't be trusted? or that 'those sort' of students couldn't possibly have worked hard and excelled?

That's beyond defence.
I agree for some this isn't fair, my point is that however you do it someone, somewhere is going to feel aggrieved. Unfortunately and as unpopular a view as this may be I don't think many teachers from any area, deprived or not, can be trusted on this and who can blame them?

They are under huge pressure to make potentially "life changing decisions" that will affect people they will see everyday in their local communities. They are also employed by a school that takes great stock in it's exam results, be that a top performing school that wants to stay where it is or a traditionally under performing school that is looking to improve.

If teachers grades are to be used only it will be the highest A level performance for 70 years. Up 13% on last years results. That can't be ignored.

Even when you take that into account only 40% of results have been downgraded. Now, if the downgrading disproportionately affects those from traditionally un-academic areas, its because they are traditionally un-academic but that is another argument for another day.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

starbuck wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 1:58 pm
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 1:11 pm
Instead, they appear to have rigged the system so that results from elite schools have been left untouched, and those from sixth form colleges in traditionally unacademic areas have been heavily marked down. On what basis, that teachers from those areas somehow can't be trusted? or that 'those sort' of students couldn't possibly have worked hard and excelled?
I agree for some this isn't fair, my point is that however you do it someone, somewhere is going to feel aggrieved. Unfortunately and as unpopular a view as this may be I don't think many teachers from any area, deprived or not, can be trusted on this and who can blame them?

They are under huge pressure to make potentially "life changing decisions" that will affect people they will see everyday in their local communities. They are also employed by a school that takes great stock in it's exam results, be that a top performing school that wants to stay where it is or a traditionally under performing school that is looking to improve.

If teachers grades are to be used only it will be the highest A level performance for 70 years. Up 13% on last years results. That can't be ignored.

Even when you take that into account only 40% of results have been downgraded. Now, if the downgrading disproportionately affects those from traditionally un-academic areas, its because they are traditionally un-academic but that is another argument for another day.
WM - I think you are being mighty generous in your theory about the grading - I prefer the cock-up over conspiracy everyday. Are this lot actually capable of planning such a mess?

Starbuck - nice traditional bit of teacher bashing there and as CJS is obviously preparing for the new school year I'll weigh in instead. Nobody, or at least nobody I have heard, has put forward that there is a clear and obvious difference between any on-going assessment and a single or double paper exam at the end of a 2 year course. In 2010, my school along with the majority in England decided to boycott the KS2 SATs which had totally skewed the supposed broad and balanced curriculum, were being used as a defining data source by Ofsted before they had even arrived in the school car park and were ignored by most secondary schools anyway. We still had to put in teacher assessments - albeit with the deadline 6 weeks after the paper test would have been taken. At the teacher assessment we went through every child's work over the previous 12 months; in particular those who had achieved level 1,2C or 2B at KS1 and would have been considered at risk of not achieving the expected level 4. Everyone of those children showed sufficient evidence to be classed at level 4. They had had the additional 6 weeks, additional teaching and didn't have the stress of the test.

Every teacher in the country predicting GCSE or A level grades will have been even more stringent than usual as we all knew they would be under the spotlight and also under significant accountability under Ofsted.

As to the traditionally unacademic - wow - any child considered working class or who doesn't get the 11-plus grade (and that was and is a lottery) goes straight down the mine or onto the land or into service!

My primary school was in a market town in the east midlands with a very well known public school - no doubt one which has benefited from the algorithm which has favoured schools with small groups. As a primary school I had about £3500 per pupil to pay everything, the local comprehensive maybe £6000. The fees for the public school were £30,000 per year with all sorts of endowments and very rich alumni in addition. Their facilities were stunning - in the 6 years I was there a new sports complex was built and the new science block would have shamed NASA.
The pupils who went there were no brighter than the local youngsters, had equally dedicated staff to the local comp and what they came out with was no better at GCSE or A level than my daughter's church secondary school or our local CTC. What they did get was confidence ( I well remember the 16 daughter of a Russian oligarch making me feel I was privileged that she was doing some community work with my 4 years olds {I was quite pleased when one threw up on her}) and connections.

The whole thing is very difficult with no straightforward solution but it really appears that OfQual and Williamson have between them made a complete pig's ear of this one.

BREAKING NEWS: as I was typing the decision has been made so what needs to happen now?
Reverse the cap on university numbers - few foreign students anyway.
The universities need to do some quick assessments early in the academic year to advise students not up to the task before they become liable for the fees.
Maybe a return to a mix of course work and exams for GCSE and A level in case the same situation occurs next year.
Make sure that grade agreement trials happen between local schools not just within school
BJ needs to get a grip.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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starbuck
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by starbuck »

Not sure how you think I was teacher bashing for pointing out a fact? Especially as I also said I don't blame them. Alternatively, how do you explain the 13% increase in grades for this year?

Maybe a moot point now anyway as the government have now moved the goalposts.

You do make a very good point about what happens from now on, 100 eligble applicants for a degree course could now be 113 (I know it doesn't work like this but you take the point). Hopefully for their sake they will all get in, I expect foreign students to be massively down this year because of Covid and Brexit so maybe this is a storm in a tea cup.

As a father of a daughter in her first year of 6th form I am very worried as to what will happen next year

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »



He has to resign, surely.

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iainpeden
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

Starbuck. I simply don’t know if the 13 % increase is comparing like with like. If it’s a rise in teacher predictions between 2019 and 2020 it does need analysing. If the comparison is between 2019 exam results and 2020 teacher predictions, well that’s like comparing apples and pears.

Good luck to your lass next year, just make sure you get all the answers from the teachers you need and be prepared to nag - it’s the quiet hard working girls who tend to get missed.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by RAF4EVER »

When has life ever been fair?,some win and some lose whatever the circumstances,if life was fair everyone would have money,a home and a job,no need for welfare payments.
I believe this is called Utopia, or is it Communism.

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by iainpeden »

RAF4EVER wrote:
Mon 17 Aug 2020, 4:26 pm
When has life ever been fair?,some win and some lose whatever the circumstances,if life was fair everyone would have money,a home and a job,no need for welfare payments.
I believe this is called Utopia, or is it Communism.
What a pathetic commentator- it’s obviously not your child who has been put through the uncertainty or lost a place at a top university.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by RAF4EVER »

If life was fair I would not have lost my Father to Cancer,my Mother to Sepsis, and 2 younger brothers,1 to Diabetes and 1 to Pneumonia,at least you can still see your child.
Last edited by RAF4EVER on Mon 17 Aug 2020, 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tommy
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Re: The UKAR politics thread

Post by Tommy »

That’s quite horrible to hear and I hope you find a way of dealing with your loss and pursuing as happy a life as you can.

*but*, it seems to me that “too bad, life isn’t fair” is the siren song of those without empathy.

“Life not being fair” does not stop people striving to make it fairer, better, and more happy. It does not stop people lamenting the lack of fairness, and it certainly doesn’t prevent people from calling out injustice.

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