London Bridge Incident

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FlankerPhoto
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London Bridge Incident

Post by FlankerPhoto »

Early reports emerging from London, suggest Armed Police have shot a suspect on London Bridge.

Nothing else known as of yet.

FlankerPhoto
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by FlankerPhoto »

2 members of the public have been killed.

The knifeman was shot dead by Police.

Berf
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Berf »

So why was this bloke let out of prison and will those that let him out face criminal charges?

Finningley Boy
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Finningley Boy »

Berf wrote:So why was this bloke let out of prison and will those that let him out face criminal charges?

Not if procedures were correctly followed and the chap in question was subject to the appeal process properly and the decision to turn him back out onto the streets was satisfactorily arrived at. :cuppa:

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Brevet Cable
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Brevet Cable »

He was initially given an IPP ( Indeterminate sentence for Public Protection ) which meant he - and the others convicted with him at the time - could be kept locked up until he could prove he no longer posed a threat.
This was overturned and the Court of Appeal ( led by a certain Lord Levinson ) changed their sentences to standard 'fixed term' ones.
He was then given a 16 year sentence with an order to serve at least 8 years before being eligible for release on license.
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pbeardmore
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by pbeardmore »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ven-killed

See below a link to the event that this guy attended in the morning. It's hard to find a better example of the naivety of our liberal system and the wider establishment. "Brunch and chat", "interactive workshops - story telling, creative writing ", "five year impact report", "the power of education in social justice" - well not powerful enough it would seem. A horrible irony that I'm sure we won't learn from. Well meaning Cambridge intellectual liberals organising these projects with a known terrorist formally attending. Enjoying the brunch in the morning whilst discussing "the power of education", popping on the fake bomb and killing two people in the afternoon. You could not find a better example that tells us that our current stance simply does not work.

Creative writing!! FFS!!What an utter, utter tragedy.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/learning ... 773160455#
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Southendnick »

Bring back the death penalty and use full life terms more, better still take them to the middle of the Antarctic drop them off in shorts and t-shirt without any thing else and leave them to fend for themselves.
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pbeardmore
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by pbeardmore »

Judges comments when originally sentenced:

In my judgment, these offenders would remain, even after a lengthy term of imprisonment, of such a significant risk that the public could not be adequately protected by their being managed on licence in the community, subject to conditions, by reference to a preordained release date. In my judgment the safety of the public in respect of these offenders can only adequately be protected if their release on licence is decided upon, at the earliest, at the conclusion of the minimum term which I fix today.
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by duxfordhawk »

I am just thinking of those hurt and killed in yesterday's attack, violence for any twisted ideology is never ever going to be tolerated by 99.9% of people. I am proud to be from the London area, proud to both work in London, and visit London for pleasure. I am truly proud of the people that make London a multicultural, vibrant and special city. The spirit of London is a strong one and not one to bow down to extremism in any form, twisted ideals or hate.

Any Terrorist/extremist is an enemy of the people and the reality is here the system and the state have failed the people. I am not sure we can ever rehabilitate a person with extreme views, and I would prefer they are seen as mentally unstable and not released back into the population.
I also wish we would in the future declare such awful incidents as an unstable person has committed a crime on innocent people and not label them as a terrorist or give them any publicity in any way or form. My sympathies go to the families of the two who were killed and anyone else who has been harmed by this incident.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Brevet Cable »

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/london-bridge-terror-attack-murderer-17341884
One of the heroes of the London Bridge terror attack was a murderer out on day release, it has been reported.

It is understood that James Ford rushed to the scene and tried to save the life of a woman who had been attacked by the terrorist Usman Kahn.
(snip)
Ford, now 42, was jailed for life – with a minimum of 15 years – in April 2004 for the murder of a 21-year-old with learning difficulties.
Amanda Champion – who had the mental age of a 15-year-old – was found strangled and with her throat cut on waste ground near her home in Ashford, Kent, the previous July.

Amanda's family had tried to block Ford's parole, and only found out he had been released from his sentence in a call from their police liaison officer after the attack on Friday, according to newspaper reports.

Whitehall sources confirmed that Ford – who had been serving the final days of his sentence at HMP Standford Hill, an open prison in Kent – was on London Bridge yesterday.
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Finningley Boy »

Southendnick wrote:Bring back the death penalty and use full life terms more, better still take them to the middle of the Antarctic drop them off in shorts and t-shirt without any thing else and leave them to fend for themselves.

It'd be the making of some of 'em! :biggrin:

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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by pbeardmore »

As I suspected, the heroics of the public and their individual stories (whilst compelling) is potentially hiding the more serious issues. We don't want any more events like this and we need to prevent any member of the public having to "dive in" to risk their lives.

T May said "enough is enough" and, as far as I can see , did nothing. This guy was released after "enough is enough".
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Berf »

Can anyone really argue with this:

A counter-terrorism specialist has described the criminal justice system as playing “Russian roulette” with the public, after it was revealed the London Bridge attacker had been released from jail following his conviction for terror offences.

Chris Phillips, a former head of the UK national counter-terrorism security office (Nactso), said: “The criminal justice system needs to look at itself.”

“We’re letting people out of prison, we’re convicting people for very, very serious offences and then they are releasing them back into society when they are still radicalised.

“So how on earth can we ever ask our police services and our security services to keep us safe?

“I’ve said it a few times today, we’re playing Russian roulette with people’s lives, letting convicted, known, radicalised Jihadi criminals walk about our streets.”

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Southendnick
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Southendnick »

Was it Jeremy Corbyn who said he is uncomfortable with the police having a shoot to kill policy in such situations as yesterdays attack, and John McDonnell called to fully disarm the police?

How the hell would the police have been able to contain such an attack, ask the knife maniac politely to stop, had his fake bomb been real they would have been powerless to prevent it being detonated.

Some people actually claimed it was all set up by Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party! and too think they can vote!
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Brevet Cable
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Brevet Cable »

The incident is reported as having started in the hall he was attending at 13:58hrs......the Police didn't arrive on scene until 14:03hrs.
It could be argued that if the device had been viable he had plenty of opportunity to activate it prior to their arrival & that the only reason for wearing a fake IED ( when a viable one isn't that difficult to make ) would be to ensure the Police reacted as they did.
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pbeardmore
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by pbeardmore »

Fair point - guarantees you will "meet you maker", guarentees you will not pass over intel re contacts, background etc, makes sense from their perverted perspective, I suppose it does show that he did not have access to the real thing which is a small mercy.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Brevet Cable »

I suppose it does show that he did not have access to the real thing which is a small mercy.

What event did we have at the beginning of this month?
A readily available source of ready-made there, I'd have said ( and it's not as if they're unavailable at any other time of the year )

At least one media outlet is now reporting that he was an acolyte of Anjem Choudary
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Paul_Reflex
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Paul_Reflex »

Berf wrote:Can anyone really argue with this:

A counter-terrorism specialist has described the criminal justice system as playing “Russian roulette” with the public, after it was revealed the London Bridge attacker had been released from jail following his conviction for terror offences.

Chris Phillips, a former head of the UK national counter-terrorism security office (Nactso), said: “The criminal justice system needs to look at itself.”

“We’re letting people out of prison, we’re convicting people for very, very serious offences and then they are releasing them back into society when they are still radicalised.

“So how on earth can we ever ask our police services and our security services to keep us safe?

“I’ve said it a few times today, we’re playing Russian roulette with people’s lives, letting convicted, known, radicalised Jihadi criminals walk about our streets.”


I'd argue with that, very strongly indeed. The fact is that extremist offenders are not particularly complex in terms of rehabilitation pathways when compared with other types of offending. You don't even need to challenge their beliefs and values, as they will do this themselves if they are helped to develop a healthier identity for themselves. It isn't even very difficult to measure their progress. But, there are early periods where the new identity is not always strong enough to resist the pull factors for this type of offending (we call this primary desistance) and in these periods lapses are to be expected. This seems to be what has happened here. This is simply working in reality and to call it playing Russian Roulette is just obtuse. This gentleman should go back to his poxy think-tank and think about target hardening, which is in his area of expertise, and leave the stuff involving human elements to people who know what they are talking about.

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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Georgeconna »

@ Paul Reflexm

"It isn't even very difficult to measure their progress".

Really is there a thought Head-O-meter that you use or do you just belive all the spite has been washed out of the pricks when you ask them?

I do have to ask did you laugh a lot whilst typing that?

Lets be honest here there lads like Khan & Co will never be turned into Western Society lovers and there is plenty more radicals like him around the UK and Europe and we are 'welcoming' more and more unknowns in. Its a big problem throughout Europe now. Call a spade a spade.

Mabye there will be a few more over for you Paul to De Radicalise soon.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-n ... g-20950164

Getting back to London my thoughts are with the Families that have been affected by yet another senseless Islamic attack. Let hope the injured can get back to normal life as soon as possible.

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Paul_Reflex
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Paul_Reflex »

Scoff all you want George; I’ve heard it all before (apart from the head-o-meter, that is new).

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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Finningley Boy »

Paul_Reflex wrote:Scoff all you want George; I’ve heard it all before (apart from the head-o-meter, that is new).

Simplest and most effective way Paul is when the Judge comes to sentencing, the court usher, or whoever it would be, deftly places a square of black material on top of the Judge's horsehair titfer. He steps back and bows. The Judge adopts a grave expression and reads out the Terrorist's name in full (you know the Norman Stanley Fletcher blah blah bit)
You will be taken from this court to a place of execution, there you will be confined until the day of your execution, on this day, you will be hanged by the neck until you be dead and may the Lord have mercy on your soul. And that's it, that's what happens to 'em! :biggrin: Apologies to death penalty anoraks who reckon I've got the wording of the sentencing wrong. :smile:

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Ewart
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Ewart »

Brevet Cable wrote:The incident is reported as having started in the hall he was attending at 13:58hrs......the Police didn't arrive on scene until 14:03hrs.
It could be argued that if the device had been viable he had plenty of opportunity to activate it prior to their arrival & that the only reason for wearing a fake IED ( when a viable one isn't that difficult to make ) would be to ensure the Police reacted as they did.


To be fair five minutes to arrive is quite quick, if you consider the call has to be made, answered up by a BT operator, diverted to the Police, answered by the Police, the information and intelligence collated onto a command and control system and then the correct units to be diverted or sent to the actual scene and get through London traffic, which even with blue lights and sirens won't be an easy task.

The fake IED vest is a similar MO to the attacks a few years ago, it does make people think twice before going hands on, you can try to outrun/outfight a knife attack, you're not going to be able to outfight/outrun something that goes bang.

Bobby Marley
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Bobby Marley »

What was the story with the white lorry that jack knifed across the bridge - i thought that had something to do with the incident? also did anybody else see how determined the killer was - even after being shot he tried to get up (seen some vids of that).

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Berf
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Berf »

Paul_Reflex wrote:
Berf wrote:Can anyone really argue with this:

A counter-terrorism specialist has described the criminal justice system as playing “Russian roulette” with the public, after it was revealed the London Bridge attacker had been released from jail following his conviction for terror offences.

Chris Phillips, a former head of the UK national counter-terrorism security office (Nactso), said: “The criminal justice system needs to look at itself.”

“We’re letting people out of prison, we’re convicting people for very, very serious offences and then they are releasing them back into society when they are still radicalised.

“So how on earth can we ever ask our police services and our security services to keep us safe?

“I’ve said it a few times today, we’re playing Russian roulette with people’s lives, letting convicted, known, radicalised Jihadi criminals walk about our streets.”


I'd argue with that, very strongly indeed. The fact is that extremist offenders are not particularly complex in terms of rehabilitation pathways when compared with other types of offending. You don't even need to challenge their beliefs and values, as they will do this themselves if they are helped to develop a healthier identity for themselves. It isn't even very difficult to measure their progress. But, there are early periods where the new identity is not always strong enough to resist the pull factors for this type of offending (we call this primary desistance) and in these periods lapses are to be expected. This seems to be what has happened here. This is simply working in reality and to call it playing Russian Roulette is just obtuse. This gentleman should go back to his poxy think-tank and think about target hardening, which is in his area of expertise, and leave the stuff involving human elements to people who know what they are talking about.


Perhaps in this case Paul the people 'who know what they are talking about' simply don't. Some would also argue that the thoughts you show are playing straight into the hands of radicalised people. There is also the argument of does society really want to try to rehabilitate these people or others who perhaps have committed crimes on children, does society want to take the chance of future crime on release, is the original crime so grievous to society the potential for it in the future being repeated outweighs any possibly rehab? If we go through the rehab route is it acceptable to 'expect a few lapses along the way'? How many people in this country would be happy to accept that their mother-father- sister-brother -wife-husband is dead to be met with - well they are the victim of one of our lapses - put up with it?

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Paul_Reflex
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Re: London Bridge Incident

Post by Paul_Reflex »

Berf - The rehabilitation interventions are not the only area of work. In a case such as this one appears to be, where custody is coming to an end, there would also be many risk management activities such as: MAPPA conferencing, Prevent channel panels and multi-agency supervision. The offenders are also subject to stringent licence conditions which can and would include residency at approved premises, non-contact conditions, exclusion zones, electronic tagging and inspection of electronic devices. I did not mean to give the impression that the criminal justice system leaves people in a semi-treated state and just hopes that there are no lapses into offending behaviour. I can’t comment on this case, but I would expect that in a terrorism case where reoffending occurs then there would be offence paralleling behaviour which was observable by colleagues supervising the case which could have led to actions such as a recall to prison. This system seems to have been a terrible and unusual system failure and there will be much to learn about the causes.

I haven’t done any work with extremists for a few years, as I work in a regional sex offender intervention unit, but whenever I talk to colleagues working in this area I am constantly impressed by the quality of the work going on and the level of resources available. I think you would feel a lot less cynical if you could see this too.

Lastly, because I work with sex offenders, I am well aware that a lot of people would prefer to see offenders either locked away for ever or disposed of in some other way. You say that maybe we don’t know what we’re talking about, but we have massive amounts of academic research and decades of programme development to draw on so I find this difficult to accept. I have spent nearly 20 years at this coal face, dealt with things that you wouldn’t believe and have suffered quite significant consequences as a result. I know that this work has saved lives, verifiably in a few cases. By all means question this system, that’s what living in a democracy is all about, but please don’t belittle the work or the expertise and dedication of my amazing friends and colleagues who undertake it.

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