COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Chat about anything not specifically aviation related
Post Reply
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

That’s how surveys work, though, to be fair. If it was a National poll, it’d be a national vote.

IATthenRIAT
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 3:05 am

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Such an easy answer to the Xmas thing - everyone sharing the same house over xmas if they are coming from a different house/location just self Isolate between now and 25th to limit the risk of having anything and spreading it.

FGR2
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon 15 Sep 2008, 12:12 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by FGR2 »

One of my parents’ neighbours (she is on her own and in her 70’s), said today she is going to stay for a few days with her friends in Scotland (I believe they are of a similar age, she stays for a week or so every year).

Seems a bit risky to me considering she will need to get a train from Essex into London, then the underground to Euston, then the train to Scotland. 6-7 hours on public transport, travelling the length of the country, not sure I would do it unless I absolutely had to.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7955
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 4:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by CJS »

I just wonder if we will stop short (I mean, *just* short) of a U-turn on the Christmas relaxation rules, but be guilt tripped, eventually, by the govt in to staying at home.

[teacher_voice]We told you it was a bad idea - we said you should carefully consider it and only travel if you really think you should. Frankly, I am disappointed in your choices and I think you only have yourselves to blame for the sudden spike in cases, overwhelming of various sections of the NHS and increase in deaths.

Don't interrupt please.

Yes, we said you *could* but we also made it clear we didn't think you *should*. If you chose - yes, you chose, please stop interrupting I said - to ignore our recommendations then I don't know what else you expect us to do.[/teacher_voice]


The science says it's a poor idea, the scientists say it's a poor idea, it's pretty obvious that the leaders in Wales, Scotland and NI think it's a bad idea - Christ even Michael Gove is starting to seem like he thinks it's a bad idea, otherwise I'm pretty sure these 'talks' wouldn't have gone on in to tomorrow - but I still don't think we'll get the U-Turn we clearly and obviously need.

A point of fact that the Head of Ofsted (Amanda Speillman - a lady who it's worth noting has never been a teacher) got wrong on the today programme this morning by the way: she claimed that shutting schools could keep key NHS workers away from their shifts at a critical time. Utter bullcrap, because as she very well knows the children of key workers have always been allowed to stay in school. That has been the case since the first lockdown in March and would continue to be the case if it happened again.

Her comments this morning were so obviously towing the govt line it was pitiful (or she really has no clue, either are distinctly possible). She's paid at least £180k a year by the govt, so obviously she was going to say the same thing as BoJo and Co.

But on the point of NHS workers missing shifts if schools were closed, she was just wrong.
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by iainpeden »

Chris
of course you're right about the children of key workers - my bad.

With regard to changes in the Christmas guidance - let's hope they have the courage to say that previous plans need changing and do it and put country before face.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

RAF4EVER
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue 27 Mar 2012, 7:49 pm
Location: Hoofddorp The Netherlands

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by RAF4EVER »

Chris,you are a teacher,do you not know the difference toeing the line :Toe the line" is an idiomatic expression meaning either to conform to a rule or standard,and towing :Towing is coupling two or more objects together so that they may be pulled by a designated power source or sources., or are you going to blame autocorrect. :grinning: :grinning: :grinning:

FGR2
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon 15 Sep 2008, 12:12 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by FGR2 »

The scientists would ideally have the whole country locked down until the vaccine is rolled out.

When as a country did we become so risk averse that we willingly give up our liberties and want the government to decide who we see, who we can meet with, and who we can have in our very own houses, rather than let us use common sense over Christmas?

I can see the government’s point, in not intruding right into the heart of family life. You have to inform and let people make their own decisions.

If you are in a high risk group then defer it until next year, if you are low risk and are sensible then I can see why people would feel safe it is to meet up.

It is not as if there is a light at the end of the Covid tunnel despite of all the vaccine hype, restrictions and distancing will be stretching out well into the middle of next year.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7955
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 4:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by CJS »

RAF4EVER wrote:
Tue 15 Dec 2020, 10:12 pm
Chris,you are a teacher,do you not know the difference toeing the line :Toe the line" is an idiomatic expression meaning either to conform to a rule or standard,and towing :Towing is coupling two or more objects together so that they may be pulled by a designated power source or sources., or are you going to blame autocorrect. :grinning: :grinning: :grinning:
I'm going to blame nobody but myself.

Then I'm going to get my red pen out and mark your post... :lol:

Iain - yes, let's hope they do it that way round. In the long run, I think it would actually show a bit of mettle if they did make an official U-turn. They'd even win a couple of brownie points from me. 🤪
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by iainpeden »

FGR2, your post illustrates the totally impossible circle the decision makers are trying to square.
As for becoming risk averse though - the virus has already killed about 1 person in a thousand in the UK which is a significant risk.
Stay safe, stay sensible, don’t go shopping and lock up your teenagers!
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

pb643
Posts: 891
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 8:31 am

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by pb643 »

Robert Jenrick on LBC this morning saying that the laws are in place for the 5 day Christmas break and that wouldn't change. However, he would appeal to peoples common sense, having seen the effect of thanksgiving in the US, that people would behave sensibly. When pushed on the matter, he did admit that things are always under review and so couldn't absolutely say rules wouldn't change.

Seems to be the same government strategy as the pubs in March, we will not close them, but we would advise people not to go.

From my own personal experience, the hospital trust I work for had around 20-30 covid patients in the spring. Since September, that number has swayed between 200-300, with all but emergency surgery suspended, as the operating theatres and recovery rooms are being used for additional patient capacity. That number is around a third of the trusts total bed capacity.

They hope to vaccinate all staff by the end of March.

I would say that the media and government are painting are a far more optimistic picture of the current situation than is justified and consequently, a 5 day free for all is stupid.

Ken Shabby
Posts: 765
Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 1:23 pm
Location: Romford, Essex
Contact:

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Ken Shabby »

FGR2 wrote:
Tue 15 Dec 2020, 10:31 pm
The scientists would ideally have the whole country locked down until the vaccine is rolled out.

When as a country did we become so risk averse that we willingly give up our liberties and want the government to decide who we see, who we can meet with, and who we can have in our very own houses, rather than let us use common sense over Christmas?

I can see the government’s point, in not intruding right into the heart of family life. You have to inform and let people make their own decisions.

If you are in a high risk group then defer it until next year, if you are low risk and are sensible then I can see why people would feel safe it is to meet up.

It is not as if there is a light at the end of the Covid tunnel despite of all the vaccine hype, restrictions and distancing will be stretching out well into the middle of next year.
Steady on, surely you’re not advocating that people think for themselves and take some personal responsibility for themselves and others? This is an outrageous idea! I want the Government to tell me exactly what I’m allowed and not allowed to do at Christmas and to set it out in detail in pages of rules and regulations. Then I’ll know exactly where I stand and, more importantly, will have someone to blame if something goes wrong.

And if I go out for a walk early on a Wednesday morning to get some exercise, I will quite understand why two police officers will get out of their patrol car to ask me why I’m outdoors and ask me where I’m going. I will accept their advice to go home as soon as I can as I now know where I live became a Very High Risk area at midnight. I also know they only had my (and society’s) best interests at heart. I will also have been educated regarding the risks of spreading disease when walking outdoors on my own and now completely understand these rules aren’t being written “for the fun of it”.

(Although the bit of my mind that’s still reserved for free thought is still bothered by the fact they didn’t think it a good idea to put their face masks on whilst talking to me. And I clearly know more about what you are and aren’t allowed to do in Tier3 than the Met’s finest do.)
Ken

Afghanistan - so what was the point of all that then?

disgruntled
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed 11 Dec 2013, 12:16 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by disgruntled »

And yet. And yet.

For all the support of a U turn on Christmas or some of the implied support for a total lockdown, pull the blankets over your head, go into stasis until this is all over approach;
even if the government were to do this there would be just as many shouting that it is wrong and can’t they see the irrecoverable damage they are doing.

I don’t know what the right answer is - and I challenge anyone to say that they know for sure that their approach is right - but I just can’t help feeling that we have fallen into a perpetual state of let’s blame “them” for everything and anything and that no matter what course of action is taken it will always be wrong.

And this goes for pretty much everything going on in the country at the moment.

Frankly I’m sick of it all.

Christmas is simply. Yes you may if you must but consider whether you really must! Is it really so hard to comprehend that simple instruction???

Do we really need/want to be told how to live every second of our lives?

We have lost the ability to function as cognitive humans and seem to prefer a state where we are assimilated as Borg just so that we can blame “them” instead of ourselves for our own choices and actions.

As I said above - completely sick of it all. The whole of society and what we have become. The need to blame “them” because it certainly can’t be “us”.

User avatar
rdchawk
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rdchawk »

Because of the suing culture we now have in the country, they've got to pass the blame to someone so if it does go wrong they cannot get sued.
Did you hear about the dyslexic pimp? He bought a ware house!
Proud member of the Silverstone Marshalling Team

User avatar
rdchawk
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rdchawk »

Also can we stop comparing to whats happened in the US on thanksgiving, has everyone now forgotten this is a country that a lot of people think the virus is fake!
Did you hear about the dyslexic pimp? He bought a ware house!
Proud member of the Silverstone Marshalling Team

User avatar
Pen Pusher
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:34 pm
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Contact:

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Pen Pusher »

rdchawk wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 10:12 am
Also can we stop comparing to whats happened in the US on thanksgiving, has everyone now forgotten this is a country that a lot of people think the virus is fake!
And a lot of people in the UK think the virus is fake as well.
The Future Of Photography Is Mirrorless

DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Facebook
DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Instagram

User avatar
rdchawk
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rdchawk »

Pen Pusher wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 11:05 am
rdchawk wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 10:12 am
Also can we stop comparing to whats happened in the US on thanksgiving, has everyone now forgotten this is a country that a lot of people think the virus is fake!
And a lot of people in the UK think the virus is fake as well.
And a lot of people simply cannot afford the healthcare
Did you hear about the dyslexic pimp? He bought a ware house!
Proud member of the Silverstone Marshalling Team

User avatar
toom317
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 12:02 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by toom317 »

pb643 wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 9:18 am
Robert Jenrick on LBC this morning saying that the laws are in place for the 5 day Christmas break and that wouldn't change. However, he would appeal to peoples common sense,...
Says the knob who broke the rules earlier this year.
"Nice pics mate" comments only! No criticism please.

Equipment: Camera, Lens, Goretex Y fronts.

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

The arguments of “just use your own common sense - if you don’t like the situation, don’t go, if you’re fine with it, then go” aren’t that compelling because it’s not just the individual who gets hurt if they take the risk upon themselves, which is exactly why state and National leadership is required.

There are two points, the first is: “The people” don’t have access to the huge volumes of science and data that gives the most up to date picture, they don’t have the teams of analysis considering the thousands of positive and negative test results, hospital capacity, local infection rates, nor the R number, and even if they are able to glean a dumbed-down version from the news, don’t have the training nor qualification to properly project the safety of their proposed Christmas break.

So the public aren’t able to properly consider the risk of a very complex disease and virus.

The second, and this is really a biggie, is that it’s not just “the individuals” risking their lives. They’re risking the lives of everyone around them, they’re potentially complicit in increasing the virus case rate, they’re risking the lives of their elderly relatives.

In the same way that you wouldn’t say “gosh we can’t even drink and drive now! The state tells us what to do and what to think! I know the risks. I know I’m fine after two pints!” Because not only do people need protecting from themselves, but they risk causing harm to others, too. Many of whom may be innocently complying with the rules.

And, if the infection rates and death rates are similar to those in March/April, and you were all satisfied with lockdown then to reduce death/infection rates, why are you all not satisfied with it now?

There’s a reasonable debate to be had about how the Government has imposed lockdown without parliamentary scrutiny. Eric (I think?) raised Lord Sumption’s very compelling point about it several months ago.

But, for the moment, just as London & Essex slips into Tier 3, it seems that the Christmas break is impossible to justify based on infection and death rates.

Or, as those above seem to be keen, if it *is* possible to justify, then why is London & Essex moving into Tier 3 now? That’s the reverse side of the argument - if you want to swear blind that we’ll be ok with people “using common sense” is perfectly sufficient not to cause problems - then why has the Government just put the capital into Tier 3, and all of the economic woes that brings?

User avatar
rdchawk
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rdchawk »

toom317 wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 11:42 am
pb643 wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 9:18 am
Robert Jenrick on LBC this morning saying that the laws are in place for the 5 day Christmas break and that wouldn't change. However, he would appeal to peoples common sense,...
Says the knob who broke the rules earlier this year.
You're forgetting he's a politician, who can get away with anything without any comebacks!
Did you hear about the dyslexic pimp? He bought a ware house!
Proud member of the Silverstone Marshalling Team

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

disgruntled wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 9:52 am
I just can’t help feeling that we have fallen into a perpetual state of let’s blame “them” for everything and anything and that no matter what course of action is taken it will always be wrong.
This is only the case because the Government has made the wrong decision time and time and time again. But not only that, they’ve made the bad decisions against all possible science and advice. It’s not like they’ve been flipping a coin - it was all right there. They were told time and again what the correct (or least worst) course of action would be, and they ran the opposite direction. Even now.

The one good thing they did during this pandemic was the CJRS, and that was a titanic good thing. I don’t think many people are “blaming” them for that. We, as a nation, deserve the very best. We must hold them to account when they are sub par.
disgruntled wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 9:52 am

Do we really need/want to be told how to live every second of our lives?

We have lost the ability to function as cognitive humans and seem to prefer a state where we are assimilated as Borg just so that we can blame “them” instead of ourselves for our own choices and actions.
But that’s not it, though, is it. The virus isn’t “our own actions”. I was mad about Welsh lockdown. That was caused by others, nothing to do with my own choices - I didn’t have COVID. But even if I did, I wasn’t going crazy-pants doolally down the ‘Diff. I wasn’t throwing shapes in Newport. So it would have perhaps been crappy luck whilst doing a good shop, or walking past someone on a walk. So your above comment is just palpably false.
disgruntled wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 9:52 am

As I said above - completely sick of it all. The whole of society and what we have become. The need to blame “them” because it certainly can’t be “us”.
There are plenty of absolute stonk-a-tonk idiots about the place. No one is not blaming them. But “Gary Burppants” from down the pub being a bit of a twonk will face his own responsibility for being a tool, but he’s not the ones making decisions that are supposed to protect the country.

I mean, let’s exaggerate to make a point; if you’re that libertarian, what’s the point in having the fire service, or NHS, or armed forces? Every man and woman for themselves - if you don’t protect your home, or if your cooking pot causes a fire, or you don’t live an ultra-healthy lifestyle (even if you might not be able to afford it) and need medical assistance from time to time, or you ate red meat one time and now have cancer (whether by luck or that one piece of red meat) why won’t you just suck it up and accept the consequences of your own choices?

User avatar
rdchawk
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rdchawk »

So what do we do then Tommy, just all go into a permanent lockdown until it all blows over?? even then there is a risk for all healthcare workers, police etc to still catch it and pass on to family and others. We still need to have some sort of a life to get on with instead of burying head in the sand until we're told its gone away (which isnt going to happen)
Did you hear about the dyslexic pimp? He bought a ware house!
Proud member of the Silverstone Marshalling Team

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

rdchawk wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 12:30 pm
So what do we do then Tommy, just all go into a permanent lockdown until it all blows over?? even then there is a risk for all healthcare workers, police etc to still catch it and pass on to family and others. We still need to have some sort of a life to get on with instead of burying head in the sand until we're told its gone away (which isnt going to happen)
I mean, if we had locked down when Johnson was advised to rather than weeks later, we might have, yeah.

I’ve never advocated for a full and permanent lockdown forever and ever until the virus doesn’t exist. In fact, I’ve advocated for everything but.

It was exactly the same as back in October when I said an inevitable lockdown was coming, and I got all the same arguments. And then what happened? England went back into lockdown again. Except it was weeks late, thus had to be longer, and they missed half term window when the kids were off thus lessening the impact on their education because of their other decision to refuse to shut the schools.

Until the vaccine gets rolling properly, and that’ll take some months, we’re in for a period of boom and bust firebreaks, unlock back to Tier system for the economy, firebreaks, unlock back to Tiers, then another firebreak, then back to the Tier system.

The same “common sense” people keep talking about make the Christmas relaxation untenable. London has just gone into Tier 3.

Either it’s the case that almost every large city in the U.K. being in Tier 3 is unjustified, *or* the Christmas relaxation period is unjustified. It cannot be both.

FGR2
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon 15 Sep 2008, 12:12 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by FGR2 »

rdchawk wrote:
Wed 16 Dec 2020, 12:30 pm
So what do we do then Tommy, just all go into a permanent lockdown until it all blows over?? even then there is a risk for all healthcare workers, police etc to still catch it and pass on to family and others. We still need to have some sort of a life to get on with instead of burying head in the sand until we're told its gone away (which isnt going to happen)
Exactly, mental health issues, suicides will all go up if we are in perpetual lockdown. Especially if this drags on throughout next year as I expect it will.

We know it affects those with underlying health conditions and the elderly. People need to make a judgement, you don’t have to be a scientist or pour over stats and tables. You just have to ask yourself am I (or relatives) obese? Am I (or they) elderly? have diabetes, COPD, heart problems etc?

That doesn’t need a government to dictate to you, it’s common sense.

If we are so scared and want the government to step in and take all kinds of responsibility out of our hands, then what is next?

It seems like some people (like those answering YouGov polls) are happy to trade making decisions and taking personal responsibility, and turn it into a reason to point at someone else and say “you said it was ok to do this” if it all goes wrong.

We all just have to take responsible precautions where necessary.

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4788
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by pbeardmore »

We saw how well common sense worked during the Summer when the beaches were packed. If common sense worked, we would not be where we are today. One of the reasons we have a whole infrastructure of regulatory law is because common sense can't be relied on.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

User avatar
AndyXH558
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat 04 Aug 2012, 3:37 pm

Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by AndyXH558 »

I have just got into work and have found I am eligible for the Vaccine. I'm at a dilemma. Do I do it, keeping in mind that I have said that it needs time.

What would you do?
Those aren't pillows!!!!

Post Reply