Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Chat about anything not specifically aviation related
guttersnap
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 9:01 pm

Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by guttersnap »

Just wanted to ask a question to those that buy REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT Tags and similar from selling sites such as eBay Etsy etc.

The term REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT is now a registered trade mark.

Is this common knowledge?
Last edited by guttersnap on Mon 09 Aug 2021, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by iainpeden »

No and probably unenforceable.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

guttersnap
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 9:01 pm

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by guttersnap »

iainpeden wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 3:38 pm
No and probably unenforceable.
unfortunately he is enforcing it on ebay as he has started selling the tags on there reporting other sellers to ebay for copyright violation, and his price is higher too!

FarnboroJohn
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue 28 Aug 2012, 7:57 pm

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by FarnboroJohn »

guttersnap wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 3:51 pm
iainpeden wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 3:38 pm
No and probably unenforceable.
unfortunately he is enforcing it on ebay as he has started selling the tags on there reporting other sellers to ebay for copyright violation, and his price is higher too!
Has he trademarked it or claimed copyright? The two are not the same. Plus I agree with Iain that the phrase is public domain (not to mention in use on product by a number of aviation related companies) and his idea is probably unenforceable, in fact he could well face action himself from those who already have designs on sale.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by iainpeden »

Like to see him try it with a Turkish F-4 crew. Also - where is it copyrighted - UK, worldwide etc.
Guttersnap - don't disbelieve you at all just think it's a non-starter - and will it apply to the millions of tags sold prior to the copyright? Or those being sold as 2nd hand.

And what about all the RBF tags fitted to 1:1 scale a/c or model a/c?

Short phases cannot be copyrighted.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/5-th ... -copyright
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

guttersnap
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 9:01 pm

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by guttersnap »

Thanks for the input guys...

I'm gonna be up front and say I have a vested interest as I was selling REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT TAGS on ebay last year and he had my account suspended by reporting me to eBay numerous times. The chances are some of you have bought from me as I was the cheapest... And still am on most tags. But this isn't about sales... It's about the fact the term has been used for decades all over the world

This is what he wrote to me Thursday



Hello,

I am the owner of UK trademark REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT (UK00003295094).

Many of your listings use the term "Remove Before Flight" with the obvious purpose to attract customers who are looking for REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT key chains.

Please remove this term from your titles and descriptions immediately. Otherwise I am afraid we have to rise a counterfeit claim against the according listings. This can seriously hit your account.

User avatar
Ewart
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun 24 Nov 2013, 1:04 pm

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by Ewart »

Try listing a patch using the term 'Velcro' on eBay. They Police that harder than the Met Policed covid!

FarnboroJohn
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue 28 Aug 2012, 7:57 pm

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by FarnboroJohn »

guttersnap wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 4:45 pm
Thanks for the input guys...

I'm gonna be up front and say I have a vested interest as I was selling REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT TAGS on ebay last year and he had my account suspended by reporting me to eBay numerous times. The chances are some of you have bought from me as I was the cheapest... And still am on most tags. But this isn't about sales... It's about the fact the term has been used for decades all over the world

This is what he wrote to me Thursday



Hello,

I am the owner of UK trademark REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT (UK00003295094).

Many of your listings use the term "Remove Before Flight" with the obvious purpose to attract customers who are looking for REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT key chains.

Please remove this term from your titles and descriptions immediately. Otherwise I am afraid we have to rise a counterfeit claim against the according listings. This can seriously hit your account.
I recommend professional advice but if he is going the trademark and counterfeit route I should imagine simply using the true manufacturer's trademark against your goods and making clear REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT is a safety instruction and not a brand would do it. I hardly think the chap is going to take on various governments over their aircraft safety tags. Of course, your supplier may have a view on this gentleman as well....

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by iainpeden »

Google search comes up with this (I just put UK00003295094 in)

https://www.trademarkia.com/uk/remove-b ... 295094.htm

So - argue the difference between a tag and a key ring or counter register one including a picture.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
Pen Pusher
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:34 pm
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Contact:

Re: REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT

Post by Pen Pusher »

If you took the ring off the tag and include it as a free gift would the tag still be classed a key ring? :thinking:
The Future Of Photography Is Mirrorless

DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Facebook
DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Instagram

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by iainpeden »

Brian, never knew you were related to Edward de Bono; but as the ring wouldn’t have rtb on it would it be covered by the patent?
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

cg_341
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun 09 Aug 2015, 2:39 pm

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by cg_341 »

Only way to stop him is to get a lawyer to draw up a letter saying his trademark isn't valid, sending it to him and to the IPO.

Cite many decades of use within the aviation industry and therefore what you are doing is creating replica items of real world designs.

Ken Shabby
Posts: 765
Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 1:23 pm
Location: Romford, Essex
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

I always find it laughable that people or companies are able to trademark phrases or designs that have been in common use for years beforehand.

The idea of trademarking is to protect designs, phrases or products that at an individual or a company has created (and, therefore, own) from being exploited by someone else. It’s not about claiming the sole right to use a phrase or design that already exists with the objective of creating a monopoly for yourself and putting others out of business.

People have been selling Remove Before Flight key rings for decades. How anyone can suddenly claim - and be given - the exclusive right to do so is a joke IMO.
Ken

Afghanistan - so what was the point of all that then?

User avatar
Pen Pusher
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:34 pm
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by Pen Pusher »

From the UK Copyright Service -
Can a name, title or phrase be protected?
Names, slogans, titles or phrases are not covered, although you may be able to apply for a trademark. Information about this can be found via the Intellectual Property Office, Cardiff Road, Newport, Gwent, https://www.ipo.gov.uk/. We would also recommend that you seek legal advice before proceeding.
https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/questions
The Future Of Photography Is Mirrorless

DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Facebook
DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Instagram

Berf
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu 24 Aug 2017, 8:12 pm

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by Berf »

Pen Pusher wrote:
Mon 09 Aug 2021, 6:24 am
From the UK Copyright Service -
Can a name, title or phrase be protected?
Names, slogans, titles or phrases are not covered, although you may be able to apply for a trademark. Information about this can be found via the Intellectual Property Office, Cardiff Road, Newport, Gwent, https://www.ipo.gov.uk/. We would also recommend that you seek legal advice before proceeding.
https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/questions
But it is not copyrighted its trademarked... which does accept phrases etc - the only way is as mentioned above - lawyer etc..

User avatar
NAM Updater
Posts: 3067
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 8:06 am
Location: Notts / Lincs border
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by NAM Updater »

I was once involved in an international industrial trademark/copyright case and much of the evidence was based around intellectual property on the basis of 'Prior Art', which might be applicable in this situation.

https://www.epo.org/learning/materials/ ... r-art.html
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
http://newarkairmuseum.org

User avatar
rockfordstone
Posts: 1220
Joined: Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by rockfordstone »

Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 9:44 pm
I always find it laughable that people or companies are able to trademark phrases or designs that have been in common use for years beforehand.

The idea of trademarking is to protect designs, phrases or products that at an individual or a company has created (and, therefore, own) from being exploited by someone else. It’s not about claiming the sole right to use a phrase or design that already exists with the objective of creating a monopoly for yourself and putting others out of business.

People have been selling Remove Before Flight key rings for decades. How anyone can suddenly claim - and be given - the exclusive right to do so is a joke IMO.
this is the part that interests me.

"A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others"

surely to trademark something you have to prove ownership or originality of something. "remove before flight" isn't a brand, or a company tag line, so i don't see how you can claim a trademark on something that you didn't create.

this sounds like a case for Tommy

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 11:17 am
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I don't think Frank Zwecker and Takeoff TV are going to win many aviation friends with this sort of carry on. I can't believe the the trademark authority have approved this.

Maybe someone should trademark the word "takeoff" and see how that goes down.

Ken Shabby
Posts: 765
Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 1:23 pm
Location: Romford, Essex
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

rockfordstone wrote:
Mon 09 Aug 2021, 8:33 am
Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 9:44 pm
I always find it laughable that people or companies are able to trademark phrases or designs that have been in common use for years beforehand.

The idea of trademarking is to protect designs, phrases or products that at an individual or a company has created (and, therefore, own) from being exploited by someone else. It’s not about claiming the sole right to use a phrase or design that already exists with the objective of creating a monopoly for yourself and putting others out of business.

People have been selling Remove Before Flight key rings for decades. How anyone can suddenly claim - and be given - the exclusive right to do so is a joke IMO.
this is the part that interests me.

"A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others"

surely to trademark something you have to prove ownership or originality of something. "remove before flight" isn't a brand, or a company tag line, so i don't see how you can claim a trademark on something that you didn't create.

this sounds like a case for Tommy
I’m afraid Tommy won’t be posting on here anymore.

TommyTM is now a registered trademark of PissOff TV, a wholly owned subsidiary of Ken Shabby Corporation International. Any unauthorised use of term TommyTM will be dealt with robustly by my team of lawyers and hired thugs.
Ken

Afghanistan - so what was the point of all that then?

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3432
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by iainpeden »

Ken, is that UK, global or Wales only?
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Remove Before Flight

Post by Tommy »

Ken Shabby wrote:
Mon 09 Aug 2021, 10:11 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Mon 09 Aug 2021, 8:33 am
Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 08 Aug 2021, 9:44 pm
I always find it laughable that people or companies are able to trademark phrases or designs that have been in common use for years beforehand.

The idea of trademarking is to protect designs, phrases or products that at an individual or a company has created (and, therefore, own) from being exploited by someone else. It’s not about claiming the sole right to use a phrase or design that already exists with the objective of creating a monopoly for yourself and putting others out of business.

People have been selling Remove Before Flight key rings for decades. How anyone can suddenly claim - and be given - the exclusive right to do so is a joke IMO.
this is the part that interests me.

"A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others"

surely to trademark something you have to prove ownership or originality of something. "remove before flight" isn't a brand, or a company tag line, so i don't see how you can claim a trademark on something that you didn't create.

this sounds like a case for Tommy
I’m afraid Tommy won’t be posting on here anymore.

TommyTM is now a registered trademark of PissOff TV, a wholly owned subsidiary of Ken Shabby Corporation International. Any unauthorised use of term TommyTM will be dealt with robustly by my team of lawyers and hired thugs.
Ah, rats.

Aquarious
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri 23 Jun 2017, 9:58 am

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by Aquarious »

I've just carried out a search under the UK Intellectual Property Office website and I can confirm that the trademark referenced does exist and is covered under Class 14 which includes the following: 'Gemstones, pearls and precious metals, and imitations thereof; jewellery; time instruments; jewellery boxes and watch boxes; key rings and key chains, and charms therefor.' Frank Zweker had the entry listed on 22 June 2018 with a renewal date of 7 March 2028.

He also has another trademark listed as UK00003431538 covered under class 26 which includes the following: 'Accessories for apparel, sewing articles and decorative textile articles; Hair ornaments, hair rollers, hair fastening articles, and false hair; Artificial fruit, flowers and vegetables; Charms [not jewellery or for keys, rings or chains]; Needles and pins for entomology; Ribbons.' This was listed on 27 December 2019.

So my guess is that removing the key ring won't work as he has that angle covered too.

User avatar
NAM Updater
Posts: 3067
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 8:06 am
Location: Notts / Lincs border
Contact:

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by NAM Updater »

There are several long standing suppliers of such embroidered items that might be interested in those trademark awards.

The Newark Air Museum Shop has been purchasing such items from one of them for at least 7 years!
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
http://newarkairmuseum.org

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7273
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by Tommy »

I can’t really give legal advice in this capacity, so nothing specific, but there are a number of arguable positions from a general point of view.

Re trade marks, phrases can absolutely be registrable, the rub comes in at how they are used. For example, “Just Do It” is a common enough phrase but obviously when associated with sportswear (pr perhaps sports generally) Nike might have something to say about it. Likewise there are a lot of high profile cases around, such as Lego trying to trade mark a Lego brick.

In general terms, trademarks are a first come first served basis, so the trade mark office won’t care that much that many people sell RBF tags. If it’s unregistered, then it’s potentially a free-for-all. But to be honest, it is registered. So the hows and whys are sort of irrelevant to a point.

So what needs to be considered is what one can do about someone having a trade mark (regardless), and it impacts you. One thing would be (as anyone can find out with a bit of Googling) is to make an application for invalidity (to make the trademark invalid). There are numerous sub-categories, but perhaps an application for the trade mark to be made invalid on grounds of lack of distinctive character or descriptiveness.

Talking entirely hypothetically; let’s use an example - “Apple” is a very effective trade mark for telecommunications and computer/electronics, but the US patent office would be unlikely to allow Apple to register that trademark if they decided to actually sell apples. Thinking about it, RBF tags, are, by their definition, RBF tags. It’s not some specific unique business twist on RBF style. You can’t sell a “Remove Before Flight” tag without it having those words, just as people couldn’t sell apples without using the word “apple”, regardless of whether “Apple” registered it.

But as I say, this isn’t legal advice and I don’t really want to get drawn into providing it in a personal capacity.

If it’s worthwhile (and if it’s causing you financial issues, it may be), then I’d recommend getting a solicitor to look at your case and provide specific advice to you. But as with any legal issues, beware the trap of throwing good money after bad. Litigation is always expensive, and it might well be a frustrating case of that person getting there first.

User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: Remove Before Flight Trademark?

Post by ericbee123 »

Register “Remove Before Flying” as a keychain trademark.

Post on a few forum, Twitter and Facebook accounts that your new “Remove Before Flying” keychains are much more trendy and are “sticking it to the man”.

You will reach most of the potential buyers of Remove Before Flight keychains, pretty quickly !
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

Post Reply