Insulate Britain

Chat about anything not specifically aviation related
Ken Shabby
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 1:23 pm
Location: Romford, Essex
Contact:

Insulate Britain

Post by Ken Shabby »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... s-58543603

Did anyone get caught up in this today? I live a few miles from the Swanley junction on the M25 and was wondering why the traffic was heavy around our local roads this morning, even for a Monday.
Ken

Afghanistan - so what was the point of all that then?

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

Saw the report this morning.

I wondered how, on a Monday morning at around 8am on one of the UK's busiest roads, these protesters managed to pitch up & block junctions when my own experience of driving the M25 saw me unable to change lanes due to traffic speed & volume, & that wasn't even on a Monday morning. Is it just me, or on multiple lane roads, does the traffic always seem to be faster in every other lane other than the one you are in, regardless of which lane it is?😄

These protests have been tried before on the road with limited or no success. If memory serves me well, it was sometime (possibly more than once) between 1998 & 2000/1, Lorry drivers, upset at the high cost of fuel - positioned themselves in both lanes & proceeded across the Forth Road Bridge at a speed of around 5mph, during morning rush hour. Can't remember if it was toward Edinburgh, toward Fife or in both directions that this / these protest(s) occurred.

Ken Shabby
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 1:23 pm
Location: Romford, Essex
Contact:

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Ken Shabby »

vandal wrote:
Mon 13 Sep 2021, 10:58 pm
Saw the report this morning.

I wondered how, on a Monday morning at around 8am on one of the UK's busiest roads, these protesters managed to pitch up & block junctions when my own experience of driving the M25 saw me unable to change lanes due to traffic speed & volume, & that wasn't even on a Monday morning. Is it just me, or on multiple lane roads, does the traffic always seem to be faster in every other lane other than the one you are in, regardless of which lane it is?😄

These protests have been tried before on the road with limited or no success. If memory serves me well, it was sometime (possibly more than once) between 1998 & 2000/1, Lorry drivers, upset at the high cost of fuel - positioned themselves in both lanes & proceeded across the Forth Road Bridge at a speed of around 5mph, during morning rush hour. Can't remember if it was toward Edinburgh, toward Fife or in both directions that this / these protest(s) occurred.
If the photos from Swanley are anything to go by, the protests were at those intersections on the junction that have traffic lights. So presumably, they just waited for the lights to go red, walked out, sat down and, hey presto, total chaos.

It doesn’t take long for a blocked slip road to back-up traffic onto the main road. Apparently, for a few hours this morning, the M25, M20 and A20 at Swanley were at gridlock.
Ken

Afghanistan - so what was the point of all that then?

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

👍

User avatar
Blackbird
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 4:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Blackbird »

I suggest they try this at a main junction in Beijing or perhaps Pyongyang.

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7276
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Tommy »

Monstrous and performative (and probably a bit dangerous) stupidity that achieves the sum total of dick-all beyond making the individual protestors feel good about themselves, but has the counter-intuitive effect of hardening people’s resolve to a genuine problem that the world is facing.

SkyFlash mentioned this when some of us staffers were chatting about it yesterday - if an climate change denier were to wish for a group on the other side to ridicule and rubbish climate change campaigners, they couldn’t do better than Insulate Britain or Extinction Rebellion.

Those unfortunate people caught up in it were just trying to get to work, for god’s sake.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by iainpeden »

Road blockages tend to get the protesters want they want in France.

Seriously though, a report on R4 this morning said that close to 50% of young people (i.e. under 18) were really depressed about the future of the planet and felt that mankind was doomed. Given the levels of climate change and plant/animal extinctions and significant reduction in the number of pollenating insects they are maybe not wrong; I do think the only way life on Earth is going to continue until it's swallowed up as the Sun turns into a supernova is if our particular species declines into insignificance quickly.

I think we are too far down the road to reverse climate change if the developing nations and peoples want a similar level of comfort that we have (understandably) and the drop in the ocean that any UK contribution will make to zero carbon will be swallowed up the new Chinese coal powered power stations and the reality that most vehicles round the globe will have to continue to use fossil fuel - can we really envisage electrical charging points for lorries in the middle of the Caprivi Strip for instance? Heat pumps and electrical boilers are going to prove inefficient, expensive and therefore will not be accepted.

So yesterday's Insulate Britain protests did one thing - it kept the protest in the news. And it is too easy for us to leave on a light, to get in the car for the shops or even leave the tap running while we're brushing teeth so any reminder is good even if I too would have been fuming if caught in the traffic.

An erstwhile member - remember "IATthen RIAT? " - was always going on about censorship and conspiracy theories. However, maybe in this case he was right because the recent ER protests have been very lightly reported - usually close to the end of the news after that alpaca story.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 11:17 am
Contact:

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Spiny Norman »

I watched a documentary on the Black Panthers. They were riddled with FBI agents, some of whom urged them on to more reckless actions, thus ensuring they could be arrested and neutralised as a political force.

It would not surprise me if any of the current high-profile climate change protest groups were also full of operators, trying to discredit them from within. Protests like yesterdays are almost designed to have a negative effect. Cynical, me?

It's a pity as human-derived climate change is undeniable and we will be judged on what we do.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by iainpeden »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 9:47 am

It would not surprise me if any of the current high-profile climate change protest groups were also full of operators, trying to discredit them from within. Protests like yesterdays are almost designed to have a negative effect. Cynical, me?
Remember this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_underc ... ps_scandal
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
Pen Pusher
Posts: 6989
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:34 pm
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Contact:

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Pen Pusher »

I know it's the Mail but
The middle-class eco-mob who blockaded the M25 yesterday included an organic farmer who compares himself to Mahatma Gandhi, a puppeteer, a vegan 'business coach' and a 'rebel' IT project manager.

Farmer Roger Hallam, 55, who helped found Extinction Rebellion before leaving to joining protest organiser Insulate Britain, wants to 'bring down all the regimes in the world', starting with Britain, and believes those running society 'should have a bullet through their heads'.

There have been allegations of a 'cult-like' following for the Welshman who compares his tactics to those of heroic activists Gandhi and Martin Luther King. He is said to have been inspired to take up climate activism after his farm in Wales went bust due to bad weather.

Ironically, Mr Hallam owns a farmhouse which was described as 'poorly insulated' in an official energy performance certificate. His 2,000 sq ft farmhouse in Carmarthen, South Wales, was given the lowest possible energy rating on the certificate. It is unclear if Mr Hallam has taken steps to improve the rating since it was issued six years ago.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... still.html
The Future Of Photography Is Mirrorless

DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Facebook
DUXFORDfotoGALLERY on Instagram

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4789
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by pbeardmore »

The whole point of these protests is to gain attention and the outrage they bring is part of that. A protestor would be happy to see reactions such as Tommy's. Would they have had the same coverage if they had sat by the side of the road with a banner? The worst thing possible for them is to be ignored. They are not their to win drivers over. It's a much longer term game than that.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

pbeardmore wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 12:07 pm
The whole point of these protests is to gain attention and the outrage they bring is part of that. A protestor would be happy to see reactions such as Tommy's. Would they have had the same coverage if they had sat by the side of the road with a banner? The worst thing possible for them is to be ignored. They are not their to win drivers over. It's a much longer term game than that.
They are Hypocrites though.

On one hand shouting about insulating homes, but their protest causing how many unnecessary tonnes of exhaust fumes into the atmosphere. Not all vehicles have stop - start technology.

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4789
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by pbeardmore »

So they are required to demonstrate in a zero carbon way in order to avoid that ? Sometimes, small scale sacrifices are required in order to promote the bigger picture? Shock, horror, they may have driven to the M25 and driven back? and what of the emmisions of the Police cars sent to assist? etc etc. It's a non-issue IMHO re the carbon footprint caused by the demonstration.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

pbeardmore wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 12:42 pm
So they are required to demonstrate in a zero carbon way in order to avoid that ? Sometimes, small scale sacrifices are required in order to promote the bigger picture? Shock, horror, they may have driven to the M25 and driven back? and what of the emmisions of the Police cars sent to assist? etc etc. It's a non-issue IMHO re the carbon footprint caused by the demonstration.
Not just them driving there & back - what of the thousands of vehicles they held up?

It's not a small scale sacrifice either - Global Warming is on everyone's Political agenda. No point complaining about heat escaping from houses when their protest is contributing directly to the problem by their direct course of action.

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7276
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Tommy »

pbeardmore wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 12:07 pm
The whole point of these protests is to gain attention and the outrage they bring is part of that. A protestor would be happy to see reactions such as Tommy's.
And what does my outrage (term used loosely) achieve? Where does it get them, and what meaningful changes does it achieve for their objectives?

And, finally, how do the positive (if any) elements of their protest balance against the negative that climate change deniers suddenly have a target to say “look! Anyone who believes in global warming is a hairy-arm-pitted organic-loving vegan hippie commie leftie loonie!”

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7276
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Tommy »

Remember the “Occupy” movement about 10 years ago? Wall St, London, Paris… well, almost any capital or financial capital, I guess.

It was everywhere. For months. People gave them *huge* publicity, for a long time, and what they were protesting, difficult to define though it was, was the arrest and conviction of banks and bankers and politicians that enabled the 2008 financial crash. A cause that I’m sure a great many, myself included, were probably quite sympathetic to.

And what happened? Their performative stuff fizzled out, and they quietly melted away, got bored of camping out, and what of their objectives? Completely unfulfilled.

So I disagree that outrage/press gives these people what they want. Sometimes it’s perfectly acceptable to condemn performative bolycs as just that, because at its core, it’s about the protestors feeling good about themselves, rather than looking for any meaningful change.

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4789
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by pbeardmore »

Outrage creates emotion and emotion gets exposure. It may not fit with your individual perspective but I'm happy to look at examples of successful protests that did not involve upsetting people. It's part of the process. You cant change anything if you dont get exposure. And how do you get exposure by making people happy? Considering their perspective that we are running out of time etc etc, what exactly are they meant to do?
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7276
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Tommy »

pbeardmore wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 1:08 pm
I'm happy to look at examples of successful protests that did not involve upsetting people.
Yeah sure; Greta Thunberg has achieved material global policy changes as a result of her climate change protests, and all she ever did was miss a single day of school for a few weeks. Crucially, she didn’t put anyone else to inconvenience for her protest.

She has only upset people restrospectively, ie grown (almost always) men, politicians, and climate change denialists. But that’s only because they disagree with her. She hasn’t stopped them from going to work on a re Monday morning.

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 11:17 am
Contact:

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by Spiny Norman »

There was a great protest a few years back. Some world war two veterans lined up on the Mall I think it was. And when the Japanese emperor's car went past, they all turned their backs. A very dignified protest, it hurt nobody, but it got the point over very well.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by iainpeden »

BBC news today.
In the 1980s there were eight days a year when the temperature hit 50 degrees centigrade somewhere on the planet; now we are into the mid-20s. Whether an inconvenient protest or a news report is better at getting the seriousness of that fact across is a moot point.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 1:46 pm
There was a great protest a few years back. Some world war two veterans lined up on the Mall I think it was. And when the Japanese emperor's car went past, they all turned their backs. A very dignified protest, it hurt nobody, but it got the point over very well.
That made me think of the young man that faced down the
Army Tanks in Tiananmen Square back in the 1980's. That too was peaceful & gained Global news coverage.

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by iainpeden »

Peaceful? The estimate is that the death toll was at least into the hundreds and potentially into the thousands.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

vandal
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 2:13 am

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by vandal »

iainpeden wrote:
Tue 14 Sep 2021, 4:28 pm
Peaceful? The estimate is that the death toll was at least into the hundreds and potentially into the thousands.
I was just referring to the guy stopping the Tanks, not the event(s) of the day before. What he done was a peaceful action, & incredibly brave, although little is known of the man's fate.

User avatar
BrawlerO
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon 26 Jan 2015, 1:42 pm

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by BrawlerO »

Even if the UK went carbon neutral tomorrow if would make very little difference to the global problem. Arranging deckchairs on the Titanic…

User avatar
MikeH
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue 12 Aug 2008, 6:03 pm
Location: Norwich.

Re: Insulate Britain

Post by MikeH »

They have some lofty ideals.

Post Reply