Red Arrows 7

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Berf
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Red Arrows 7

Post by Berf »

For those that have seen the Red Arrows so far with 7 aircraft how did you find it? Do they split into a 3/4 or 2/5? etc

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by CJS »

Or a 7/0 🤪😲
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Tommy
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Tommy »

It definitely lacked the punch of a 9-ship

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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Mike »

They split into a 5 & a 2. It doesn’t really work TBH, I thought yesterday’s display at Cosford was really lacklustre, gappy and not particularly dynamic.

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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by bedfordshirevulcan »

Sadly 5/2 no gypo basically so overall time is less as just enid and synco ,even synco seemed shortener less passes no carousel whole display seems lacking breaks not as impressive , no signature diamond and big shapes such as appollo just don't look as good also not sure if just because his new but new red ten very flat , sadly this has been the case since Mike ling who worked the crowd and had good energy throughout the display

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

Mike wrote:
Mon 13 Jun 2022, 4:36 pm
They split into a 5 & a 2. It doesn’t really work TBH, I thought yesterday’s display at Cosford was really lacklustre, gappy and not particularly dynamic.
Yes, I agree. There are one or two individual highlights, such as the double goose, but I've never seen the Reds lacking in impact as much as yesterday. Sadly.

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by CJS »

I wonder if they are able to take on board feedback (and react to their own feelings; I'm sure they would have noticed the difference) and make adjustments once the season has started? For example, do they work up more moves than they actually put in to the routine so they have some flexibility?

Also, some displays are very different to others aren't they - flying at RIAT for example will be very different to flying somewhere more constrained, space wise.
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Mike »

The routine is carefully choreographed and practiced, and then signed off at PDA each year. I don’t think there is scope to change it part-way through the season.

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by CJS »

Mike wrote:
Mon 13 Jun 2022, 8:49 pm
The routine is carefully choreographed and practiced, and then signed off at PDA each year. I don’t think there is scope to change it part-way through the season.
Not necessarily change it, but I wondered if, for example, they practice 15 moves, of which any ten could be used in a given display? Or if each display is essentially the same (in addition to the switch to full / rolling / flat display, which I know that Red1 can make mid-display).
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Reds Rolling »

I remember watching the last 7 ship display in 2012 and it just isn't as good. Gypo is a big part of the display and losing two aircraft from it really has a negative impact overall.

I wont be going out of my way to see the Reds this year sadly.

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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by spellow3010 »

Well, I enjoyed it at Cosford.
And I'll miss them when they're gone.
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cg_341
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by cg_341 »

Just watching the Goodwood live stream and other than the display being exactly the same as it has been for the last 200 years with the exception of having fewer aircraft spaced further apart, the biggest standout is that the commentary is so incredibly dull.

Exactly the same format as the last few years; say a couple of sentences, pause for 30 seconds, say another sentence, pause for 30 seconds, a little bit of unintelligible RT from Red 1, then an incredibly exciting statement; "This is Apollo." No change in cadence, no excitement in his voice, just utterly dull as dishwater commentary.

Why are RAFAT so incapable of getting this right? Why is the commentator a former GR4 pilot and not someone with some enthusiasm?

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rdchawk
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by rdchawk »

cg_341 wrote:
Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:44 am
Just watching the Goodwood live stream and other than the display being exactly the same as it has been for the last 200 years with the exception of having fewer aircraft spaced further apart, the biggest standout is that the commentary is so incredibly dull.

Exactly the same format as the last few years; say a couple of sentences, pause for 30 seconds, say another sentence, pause for 30 seconds, a little bit of unintelligible RT from Red 1, then an incredibly exciting statement; "This is Apollo." No change in cadence, no excitement in his voice, just utterly dull as dishwater commentary.

Why are RAFAT so incapable of getting this right? Why is the commentator a former GR4 pilot and not someone with some enthusiasm?
Yep - that's what stood out to me watching their display at Cosford - the commentator was really boring and like reading from a book
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jasonT1981
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by jasonT1981 »

It felt flat and disjointed. And too far away.

Red 10 at Cosford seemed to fudge their arrival. He was talking as they were making their entrence. Usually we get a massive hype fanfare from Red 10 followed by some technical stuff like 'Red 1 is deciding on if it is flat/rolling/high/ He has been given the go ahead for Red Arrows approach, 30 seconds... look to the skies, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE RAF RED ARROWS!

There was none of that and there entrence just happened.

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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by stickshaker »

Isn't it a bit unfair to compare someone in their first couple of outings, with the previous one (who was also a GR4 pilot) at the end of his tour and with 4 years of practice?

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Cole
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Cole »

stickshaker wrote:
Tue 28 Jun 2022, 6:51 pm
Isn't it a bit unfair to compare someone in their first couple of outings, with the previous one (who was also a GR4 pilot) at the end of his tour and with 4 years of practice?
Not really. it says Éclat on the crest. That is the standard they have set.

They certainly are nowhere near excellence this year. not even close.
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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by CJS »

cg_341 wrote:
Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:44 am
other than the display being exactly the same as it has been for the last 200 years with the exception of having fewer aircraft spaced further apart

Why are RAFAT so incapable of getting this right? Why is the commentator a former GR4 pilot and not someone with some enthusiasm?
Just to needlessly pick apart these 2 points.

Firstly, I think it's slightly unfair to say it's been the same display for 200 (sic) years. They do add in new moves every so often, and clearly try to make the display varied. That said, how many display teams make really noticeable changes to their displays anyway?

On your 2nd point - I don't think the RAFAT are incapable of getting right - what seems more likely is that we've been blessed with really very good commentary in recent years. This year's may be of a lower standard (I'll decide for myself when I hear it) but perhaps the difference seems greater because the last commentaries were so much better.

Lastly, I'm not sure why being a GR4 pilot should mean you have no enthusiasm (which is how your post reads, although not I doubt what you meant!). When was the last RAFAT commentator who wasn't a former fast jet pilot?

Anyway, it's just your opinion, and it's just mine etc etc...
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pbeardmore
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by pbeardmore »

IMHO, I don't think the audience care if the commentator is a pilot or member of the flying team. The audience needs a sense of extcitement and action and this is clearly lacking at the moment (which is some statement considering what they are actually doing!)
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by capercaillie »

CJS wrote:
Mon 13 Jun 2022, 8:59 pm
Mike wrote:
Mon 13 Jun 2022, 8:49 pm
The routine is carefully choreographed and practiced, and then signed off at PDA each year. I don’t think there is scope to change it part-way through the season.
Not necessarily change it, but I wondered if, for example, they practice 15 moves, of which any ten could be used in a given display? Or if each display is essentially the same (in addition to the switch to full / rolling / flat display, which I know that Red1 can make mid-display).
They don't change it, they can't, its been signed off.

The only thing different they can and will do is change between flat, rolling or full display part way through a routine if the weather improves or worsens, something the Reds have always been very skilled at.

It must be a very difficult year for them and I feel sorry having just got yourself into a full 9 ship, you are reduced to 7 in days, no time to adjust the routine to suit. It takes the Gypo break out, the goose and vixen breaks look inadequate and the front half of the display just looks laboured this year.

They would almost have been better getting Red 10 up as well to start, break from the formation after the opening loop, and put solo passes in between formations as with the Frecce, slow roll, 4 point roll, barrel roll, whatever, just to keep something going on with the crowd.

Lets hope they are back with the nine ship and full dynamic second half show next year, and revert to the closing parasol break, its a better ending.
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jasonT1981
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Re: Red Arrows 7

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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Stagger2 »

I personally found the Red Arrows lacking on several fronts during their displays at RIAT. Possibly one of the must-have shots is the (sadly reduced) Team coming over their loop & descending thru the upward fluffy white smoke trails, But NO!
"Smoke-off - Go!" :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: There were vast gaps in the fluidity of the demonstration, Formation shapes of historic crap kids have never seen, pedestrian & sloppy formation changes! That aside, I was captivated throughout. Not by the Red Arrows but the Frecce & Black Eagles teams who were crisp, engaging & even with all the UK restrictions very exciting? :upside_down:

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

I agree with all the comments regarding the reds.

It seems like they do the same moves each year, but re-title them for effect.
(yes i know its not as simple as that).

However they are looking a little stale, jaded, old hat, and even poor.
What doesnt help is the fact that the reds are using non front line aircraft, and as such i feel that the T2 needs to fit the bill, although the government wont pay that bill.

Also, has anyone thought of painting a typhoon in Reds colours and having it display with the reds, filling in with fast passes and moves of its own. giving a 9+1 'super display team'.

Might that be the cheapest cure to what ails thee? It might also be the most cost effective dynamic shift that the team needs
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by centaurus18 »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 4:56 pm
Also, has anyone thought of painting a typhoon in Reds colours and having it display with the reds, filling in with fast passes and moves of its own. giving a 9+1 'super display team'.

Might that be the cheapest cure to what ails thee? It might also be the most cost effective dynamic shift that the team needs
You'd need at least 2 or 3 jets painted up to cover unserviceabilities and maintenance.

When FRADU had the Black Seahawks team, its engineers had to work bloody hard to get 4 Fly Navy 100 jets available at the same time for displays, and they had seven jets in total.
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by psquiddy »

centaurus18 wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 5:22 pm
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 4:56 pm
Also, has anyone thought of painting a typhoon in Reds colours and having it display with the reds, filling in with fast passes and moves of its own. giving a 9+1 'super display team'.

Might that be the cheapest cure to what ails thee? It might also be the most cost effective dynamic shift that the team needs
You'd need at least 2 or 3 jets painted up to cover unserviceabilities and maintenance.

When FRADU had the Black Seahawks team, its engineers had to work bloody hard to get 4 Fly Navy 100 jets available at the same time for displays, and they had seven jets in total.
That was some time ago - aren't modern jets somewhat more reliable?
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Re: Red Arrows 7

Post by Mike »

psquiddy wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 6:15 pm
That was some time ago - aren't modern jets somewhat more reliable?
2009, not that long ago

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