RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

All you'll ever need to know about the UK's biggest airshow
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clearstone
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by clearstone »

Last time I checked, Sunderland, Southport and Bournemouth were all on the UK mainland and hosted displays by SwAFHF Draken, Tunnan and Viggen in 2019. OK, they are over-water displays (except Southport - but it is treated as one) but there's nothing stopping anyone seeing them fly at a major UK show.

The restriction on Swept-wing ex-military jets only applies to overland displays and hasn't stopped the Norwegians from displaying their MiG-15 at airfield events from August 2015 to this day. They fly a flat(ish) display without aerobatics.

The CAA will also permit non-UK DA holders to display at shows they regulate - see http://www.caa.co.uk/srg1328 and http://www.caa.co.uk/srg1329
Last edited by clearstone on Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Bodz156 »

Mike wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 9:45 am
Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 9:37 am
They were never going to be flying though. Nor are they likely to at a mainland U.K. show whilst CAA regs are what they are, despite immense work behind the scenes to eventually make it happen. So unless you can fork out to go to a European show, then that’s as good as it’s possible to get from them.

They have to fly in and out, remember.
That's their choice though, not specifically a blanket CAA ban as you seem to imply. Swept wing jets are allowed to fly non-aerobatic routines over land, such as the MiG-15 at Duxford this weekend.

There is nothing to stop the Swedes modifying their display to conform to this, and doing a series of flypasts/formations that comply with the CAA regs on displays by swept-wing jets. They chose not to, so are only prepared to appear on static. Their choice.
There is something to stop them modifying their (multiple aircraft) displays to suit UK airshow regulations. Operating costs I'd say. They'd have re-work & practice a whole new show on several expensive jet aircraft just to suit (maybe) 1 or 2 UK overland shows each year that could accommodate them. If they then passed on those costs to organisers in this country nobody could afford them in any case. So no point.
As Tommy says, it's seaside events or a trip to Europe if you want to see their flying displays. 🤷‍♂️

clearstone
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by clearstone »

Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:18 am
Mike wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 9:45 am
Tommy wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 9:37 am
They were never going to be flying though. Nor are they likely to at a mainland U.K. show whilst CAA regs are what they are, despite immense work behind the scenes to eventually make it happen. So unless you can fork out to go to a European show, then that’s as good as it’s possible to get from them.

They have to fly in and out, remember.
That's their choice though, not specifically a blanket CAA ban as you seem to imply. Swept wing jets are allowed to fly non-aerobatic routines over land, such as the MiG-15 at Duxford this weekend.

There is nothing to stop the Swedes modifying their display to conform to this, and doing a series of flypasts/formations that comply with the CAA regs on displays by swept-wing jets. They chose not to, so are only prepared to appear on static. Their choice.
There is something to stop them modifying their (multiple aircraft) displays to suit UK airshow regulations. Operating costs I'd say. They'd have re-work & practice a whole new show on several expensive jet aircraft just to suit (maybe) 1 or 2 UK overland shows each year that could accommodate them. If they then passed on those costs to organisers in this country nobody could afford them in any case. So no point.
As Tommy says, it's seaside events or a trip to Europe if you want to see their flying displays. 🤷‍♂️
So they don't have a flat display for low cloud-bases? I'd be very surprised they don't fly more than one practiced routine.
Last edited by clearstone on Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Bodz156 »

Probably, but it still involves rolls & derry-turns I'd expect...aerobatic.

clearstone
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by clearstone »

Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:21 am
Probably, but it still involves rolls & derry-turns I'd expect...aerobatic.
Which they could just omit and fly non-aerobatic turns and passes. You don't HAVE to fly an aerobatic figure to turn an aircraft safely.

JMC
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by JMC »

You cannot win. If the SWAFHF came and done a series of flat, non afterburner flypasts, enthusiasts and the public would be going 'is that it?!'

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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Bodz156 »

Different display then. Which would require practice to be within any air show rules. Extra flights mean more cost. Passed on to RIAT, Cosford etc....which I'd expect would make them unaffordable. I get the impression that RIAT only have them this year through co-operation with SAAB...

Luke28
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Luke28 »

JMC wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:25 am
You cannot win. If the SWAFHF came and done a series of flat, non afterburner flypasts, enthusiasts and the public would be going 'is that it?!'
100% this, the argument would then shift to exactly that.

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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by capercaillie »

Plus the Director of Ops has already implied this year's display is already full and no civilian acts are being added to the display.

Lets be grateful we're seeing three exciting ex military types at the show. Who knows what it may entail for future years. Baby steps.

Now, about that Swiss Mirage IIIDS...............
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clearstone
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by clearstone »

I suspect the real answer lies somewhere between the MAA, insurances etc. Either way, its good to finally see them en-masse at RIAT in some capacity.

Mike
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Mike »

All the above simply goes to prove my point. It is not the CAA regs in themselves that stop an operator displaying in the UK, simply their own choice not to comply with them. Some do (Norwegian HF), others don't (the Swedes, and Red Bull when they planned to bring their Alpha Jets to Flying Legends a couple of years back).

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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Bodz156 »

Mike wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:44 am
All the above simply goes to prove my point. It is not the CAA regs in themselves that stop an operator displaying in the UK, simply their own choice not to comply with them. Some do (Norwegian HF), others don't (the Swedes, and Red Bull when they planned to bring their Alpha Jets to Flying Legends a couple of years back).
They *could* comply with them....but then nobody in this country would see them at all. As the cost to book would be even higher than I believe it already is.... :flushed:

clearstone
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by clearstone »

Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:03 am
They *could* comply with them....but then nobody in this country would see them at all.
Erm. Did anyone say that of the Sea Vixen after 2015? You know, that big twin engine swept wing strike aircraft that performed half-cubans and barrel rolls before.

bobby 1211
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by bobby 1211 »

I did a quick count of how full the display is. I know RIAT air ops said just over 8 hours but from the air tattoo website I got just over 7 hours. Thats including take off and landing. I dont know how much time is needed between each display but I have a feeling there will be one or two more flying items added. Maybe some flypasts?

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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by capercaillie »

clearstone wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:05 am
Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:03 am
They *could* comply with them....but then nobody in this country would see them at all.
Erm. Did anyone say that of the Sea Vixen after 2015? You know, that big twin engine swept wing strike aircraft that performed half-cubans and barrel rolls before.
Harsh!
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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by capercaillie »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:08 am
I did a quick count of how full the display is. I know RIAT air ops said just over 8 hours but from the air tattoo website I got just over 7 hours. Thats including take off and landing. I dont know how much time is needed between each display but I have a feeling there will be one or two more flying items added. Maybe some flypasts?
Have you compared notes, to check all of your timings?
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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Bodz156 »

clearstone wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:05 am
Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:03 am
They *could* comply with them....but then nobody in this country would see them at all.
Erm. Did anyone say that of the Sea Vixen after 2015? You know, that big twin engine swept wing strike aircraft that performed half-cubans and barrel rolls before.
Cheaper to operate than a Viggen or Draken I'd wager. Plus, how many RIATs have we seen the Sea Vixen flying it's full display at? I've seen it appear at only 1 - a very high, single, straight flypast in 2009. I can't actually recall it appearing at many events full stop....saw it Yeovilton one year, I know it did a Duxford before it crash-landed.

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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by capercaillie »

To be fair the Vixen got about quite a lot, seen it at Kemble, Cosford, Old Warden, Culdrose and I know its done plenty of others.

However with RIAT, two statics and one flyby is all we ever got.
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CJS
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by CJS »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:08 am
I did a quick count of how full the display is. I know RIAT air ops said just over 8 hours but from the air tattoo website I got just over 7 hours. Thats including take off and landing. I dont know how much time is needed between each display but I have a feeling there will be one or two more flying items added. Maybe some flypasts?
No offense or anything but a) I'm inclined to go with what Peter said. Y'know, the chap in charge...
And b) no one has ever said nothing else will be announced for the flying display.

When / if it's ready to be announced, it will be.

The discussions in the meantime start to feel a bit cyclical to be honest. I mean it's fun to speculate and all that, but Peter and his team have done such a good job of keeping us in the loop this year that the random speculation seems somehow more speculative than normal!
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AARDVARK
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by AARDVARK »

I can see the poor Swedish ground crew / pilots buggering off quick smart on show days rather than be asked the same question again and again “why are you not flying”?😂

snicker01
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by snicker01 »

CJS wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:36 am
bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 17 Jun 2022, 11:08 am
I did a quick count of how full the display is. I know RIAT air ops said just over 8 hours but from the air tattoo website I got just over 7 hours. Thats including take off and landing. I dont know how much time is needed between each display but I have a feeling there will be one or two more flying items added. Maybe some flypasts?
No offense or anything but a) I'm inclined to go with what Peter said. Y'know, the chap in charge...
And b) no one has ever said nothing else will be announced for the flying display.

When / if it's ready to be announced, it will be.

The discussions in the meantime start to feel a bit cyclical to be honest. I mean it's fun to speculate and all that, but Peter and his team have done such a good job of keeping us in the loop this year that the random speculation seems somehow more speculative than normal!
Is this not the nature of speculation?!

Not sure why some get so precious about speculation, thats part of the excitement.

I do agree though, i do appreciate the transparency from the organisers this year. Not sure you would get that level of information from music festival promoters.

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Mr Benn
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Benn »

Just to say thank you Peter , for the update. Its a shame about the US F35, but at least we have one of ours doing some 'flypasts'.

ThatDutchDude
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by ThatDutchDude »

Is there maybe anything already known about maybe a Airbus A400M on the flying display from Airbus themselfs?

Due to the fact, it has attended every year since the 2017 edition how far I remember

JMC
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by JMC »

It’s been at every RIAT since 2010 (2011 it didn’t attend because of a gearbox issue or was that 2012 and that being the reason it didn’t solo and only managed a flypast)
Last edited by JMC on Fri 17 Jun 2022, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gt5500
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Re: RIAT 2022 Discussion Thread

Post by Gt5500 »

Instead of guessing, or making insinuations that the SwAFHF simply can't be bothered to work up a display that satisfies the CAA, why not simply look up the truth and see that Peter R posted the exact reason a few years ago?

"The Civil Aviation Authority no longer accepts foreign Display Authorisations (DA)s for civillain pilots to perform flying displays in the UK, so therefore the Swedish issued display authorisations for the SwAFHF cannot be accepted in the UK at either a civilian or military air show. Difference with the Norwegians is the pilot for the MiG-15UTi has a UK CAA Display Authorisation so is therefore permitted to fly."

I'd like to think he'd know...

Before someone mentions it, the restrictions enforced after 2015 only apply over land as far as I am aware.

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