RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

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Flare Path
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Flare Path »

Loos were a disgrace in P&V East - please stop using the cheap portaloo companies and invest in some better equipped/hygienic replacements.

If you're going to have interesting helicopters in the flying display, then at least make the effort to use the entire runway. The NH90 on the Friday and the Sokol on the Saturday were so far down the Western end it was ridiculous.

Shame about the SK 60.

Trust the Finnish AF Hawk took home all the awards. :sunglasses:

wdg
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by wdg »

bishbashbosh wrote:
Tue 19 Jul 2022, 3:57 pm
I really hate the stress of arrivals mornings – if you want a decent spot then you need impeccable timing in your own arrival. They changed the entrance gate to P&V East however and it confused the hell out of me on Wednesday! After a few 3-point turns and avoiding the melee down Washpool Lane I found my way in and eventually ended up in my favoured spot. Got annoyed with the usual cohort of selfish people who think it’s OK to stroll past a long queue of people who have made the effort to get there early and push in just because they vaguely know someone. There really does need to be some policing of this.
Please don't take this as me judging you, but the fact you use "impeccable timing" to avoid the "melee down Washpool Lane" (a.k.a. "the queue") and then complain about people jumping the next queue to get into the enclosure highlights just how broken the queueing system for arrivals is. They are trying to integrate three queues into one and it creates so many opportunities to game the system, for the organisers to make mistakes (e.g. not opening the pedestrian gate on Thursday) or for you to get screwed over if you're not willing to play dirty yourself.

How hard would it be to leave a parking area open overnight (off-base if necessary) so any early arrivals can leave their cars there and not need to move them later. That would remove any need for groups of people to save spaces while one of them parks the car, ensure a fair deal for anyone travelling on foot (for example, those camping nearby) and stop late arrivals jumping the queue because anyone who arrived early would already be parked and in the main queue.

Again, I'm not trying to judge anyone for making the best they can with a broken and inconsistent system (and I've certainly gained an advantage from arriving later (albeit inadvertently) and getting let straight in off the road in past years), but I would love to see these loopholes closed so your place in the queue is solely earned on merit rather than blind luck or gaming the system.
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jasonT1981
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by jasonT1981 »

OK, looking at an older programme (2017) RIAT said the following about prices
If you are charged any prices which differ from the official price list or have any complaints relating to catering outlets, please go to the visitor information point to discuss. The problems will then be investigated and resolved as appropriate
However, in the 2019 programme and this years one( don't have 2018) the oficial price list, lists item prices as from (£price) meaning no set price by RIAT anymore

AndyJohn68
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by AndyJohn68 »

I spent 5 days at RIAT for the first time this year and one of my highlights was experiencing arrivals on Thursday for the first time - really enjoyed it! Other highlights include Black Eagles, E-4B arrival, Swedish Historic Flight arrival, Frecce, Austrian QRA, Hind/Hip display and the brilliant line up of statics on the South West loop.

My only negatives were very poor wifi, bun fight getting out of red car park and lack of flying list on Friday in the FRIAT enclosure.

I would have liked to have seen more of a shift round on the Sunday flying programme - felt sorry for the last few displays having small crowds on both days.

It seemed to me that there was less non-aviation stuff going on around the showground this year. Now I'm sure all of us on here are fine with that, but I wonder if this would be a negative for the non-enthusiasts that make up the majority of the attendees.

All in all a great RIAT!

bishbashbosh
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by bishbashbosh »

wdg wrote:
Tue 19 Jul 2022, 8:29 pm
bishbashbosh wrote:
Tue 19 Jul 2022, 3:57 pm
I really hate the stress of arrivals mornings – if you want a decent spot then you need impeccable timing in your own arrival. They changed the entrance gate to P&V East however and it confused the hell out of me on Wednesday! After a few 3-point turns and avoiding the melee down Washpool Lane I found my way in and eventually ended up in my favoured spot. Got annoyed with the usual cohort of selfish people who think it’s OK to stroll past a long queue of people who have made the effort to get there early and push in just because they vaguely know someone. There really does need to be some policing of this.
Please don't take this as me judging you, but the fact you use "impeccable timing" to avoid the "melee down Washpool Lane" (a.k.a. "the queue") and then complain about people jumping the next queue to get into the enclosure highlights just how broken the queueing system for arrivals is. They are trying to integrate three queues into one and it creates so many opportunities to game the system, for the organisers to make mistakes (e.g. not opening the pedestrian gate on Thursday) or for you to get screwed over if you're not willing to play dirty yourself.

How hard would it be to leave a parking area open overnight (off-base if necessary) so any early arrivals can leave their cars there and not need to move them later. That would remove any need for groups of people to save spaces while one of them parks the car, ensure a fair deal for anyone travelling on foot (for example, those camping nearby) and stop late arrivals jumping the queue because anyone who arrived early would already be parked and in the main queue.

Again, I'm not trying to judge anyone for making the best they can with a broken and inconsistent system (and I've certainly gained an advantage from arriving later (albeit inadvertently) and getting let straight in off the road in past years), but I would love to see these loopholes closed so your place in the queue is solely earned on merit rather than blind luck or gaming the system.
No offense at all - probably just different interpretations of an imperfect system. The fundamental problem is that those who want to be on the crowd-line, which is by no means everyone, need to be at the front of the queue. Those people then get there early – very early in some cases, and quite responsibly form a queue down Washpool Lane as to not block traffic. The problem is that this is 'a queue', not 'the queue' – which is on-base once all the gates are open. Those on Washpool Lane are then at the mercy of the traffic marshals who just do what they think best to keep things moving – balancing those on Washpool Lane and those arriving on time.

I do like the idea of off-base parking. It could work in the same way as FRIAT on departures day. Park in the field and then join a single pedestrian queue. I don’t think it needs to open the night before as this would encourage some to sleep in their car, and there’s probably health and safety rules about people parking in a field in the dark. The problem of course is that this would likely just move the problem earlier with people arriving hours before that car park opens and so on. Where does it end?

TBH, the fact that it's an uncouth scrum at 0730 probably makes it all a bit of a waste of time anyway - there was a group a fair distance in front of me who ended up getting to the crowd-line several minutes afterwards - not that I deliberately charged past or anything like that, but you get funnelled into the different security queues at different speeds, some of which are then faster than others. To be honest it's all a bit of a nonsense when you think about it!
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Berf
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Berf »

A great show and well done and thanks to all the volunteers.
Accolades
- while the US flying may have been light the crews and support that did turn up were fantastic - and many of them in their own time.
- all the crews that stood out in the heat for hours
- the RJF - please can this end the drivel about them and toilet breaks
- some moaned previously about too many helicopters - the reality was the displays were really good especially the Hinds, Hip and Sokol (although I acknowledge it should have been more central)
- the Black Eagles and Frecce Tricolori
- the support from Italy
- the A4, AN30, Austrian QRA
- after years and years of poor RAF Typhoon displays this one was great
- the Greek F16
- the common sense of not searching every bag on entry although I am still not sure why we get scanned

Brickbats
- red exit on Saturday - filtering two lanes into one to enter into a two lane one system was mad. Simply opening another gate for the right hand lane in the one way would have saved a lot of people stress.
- pig ignorant people be they in FRIAT or elsewhere
- The F35 display was more than poor
- The Red Arrows are as others have said stale and lack innovation. Is this what is representing the UK abroad? They have sat back on their legacy for too long.
- The Osprey display was nowhere near the standard of previous years.
- that wheel was back in the way!
- the fencing around the 'corporatised' RAF training aircraft

For Peter to consider:
- now I love the SW loop - but I am not sure the crew's do. I think that possibility was already acknowledged when we were asked to make sure we go and take look up there. Then after that it was even further to many of the static highlights. The crews want to show their aircraft and their air arms and although most of the readers of this forum will have visited, a significant proportion of overall visitors will have not. Green entrants race down to the centre and pass them by in the morning and are then too tired to bother on exit. Red entrants find it too far to go. I hope the crews don't decide to not come in the future as they don't have the same opportunity to show themselves as others.

- Some people have said the show should be the same on both days as they miss out if only attending one day. Of course operationally that is not always possible . However even if the majority of items are the same I don't think the running order should be the same both days. Purely from a photo point of view its nice to have a change of light but that's not the main reason. This year was an exception it was fine weather but many shows start pretty dull and with low cloud preventing an on time start - sometimes the cloud burns off sometimes it does not. You really have to maximise the possibility of crews being able to display on at least one day and that means alternating the running order. While the crews may take no flying on the chin their boss back home does have to justify their attendance and if they do not fly that makes it more difficult. Different cultures will also take it in a different way especially when there is a simple solution.

DeanW
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by DeanW »

The Good
- How good is it to be back?! It's been a loooong three year break, but I'd missed it all so much. The aircraft, the familiar faces, the excitement of exits off Bravo, the stress of cancellations, the anticipation of whether a star item will be in the sun...
- ATC seemed to make a great effort to send arrivals down to P&V West this year. I’m sure it was down to the fact that we had the western loop and flightline too, but there were plenty of exits off Bravo for the P&V West attendees
- Static was insane. Pretty much everything parked West from the Romanian was top tier airshow merch. E-4B rightly took a lot of the attention but to get the likes of a the Luftwaffe A340, Portuguese TB-30s and Italian A-11 is so, so good
- Italians should be massively praised for their support of the show. Four flying displays plus a handful of uncommon static items is incredible
- Flying display had some good quality and unusual items. Can’t be too many Western shows that’ll have two Hinds in the flying display in coming years. Finnish Hawk, Slovenian PC-9, Belgian F-16 and Spanish Hornet also very good
- Good selection of squadron merch available for sale this year and generally pretty well priced too
- Western loop is back. Yehboi!
- Beluga. So sick. For me that’s what RIAT is about - one minute you’re watching a Beluga do a few flypasts and then 5 mins later you’re watching a Hungarian Hind display


The Not So Good
- That FRIAT backdrop. I pray the building work is completed for next year so we can at least be rid of the diggers and red/white boarding
- Water bowser was removed from the Green entrance/P&V West for the Friday. Why?!
- Some of the static layout was a bit meh. Prime example was the Orion and 295MPA doing their best human centipede impression
- RAF and USAF participation was so meh (aside from E-4B). I mean that’s not the fault of RIAT as they obviously want the best stuff in town, but it is just a poor reflection on the RAF and USAF
- I wasn’t a fan of the flying display being in a broadly similar order for both the Sat and Sun. I never shot/watched any of the Swiss displays as being on last thing as you’re on the way out of the showground due to the heat/fatigue/car parks etc.
- I was disappointed by the Silver Swallows, Baby Blue and Mustang X-Ray displays, which I just felt lacked any punch. Again, that’s not a reflection on RIAT as they fit the theme and the variety is what the Air Tattoo is all about (it’s not all about fast jets..)
- I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
- I wish they’d post the award winners on the website and/or social media once they’ve been announced
- F-35 appearance. What a load of pants from the RAF. Too busy to do more than two flypasts? Like SO busy that they can’t do two or three more flypasts? Also, what’s with their reluctancy to send one on static?

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pbeardmore
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by pbeardmore »

"I pray the building work is completed for next year so we can at least be rid of the diggers"

“Well may I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain...."
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skippyscage
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by skippyscage »

DeanW wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:25 am
I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
Most of the stars of the show are scooped up with the various Skyvan a2a, using fuel that could be for the greater good if timings aren't tight at the airfield. I seem to remember in the past some aircraft have been close to bingo fuel after messing around with the Skyvans, so even one run and break could be off the cards, let alone a touch and go.

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Wissam24
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Wissam24 »

skippyscage wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 9:33 am
DeanW wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:25 am
I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
Most of the stars of the show are scooped up with the various Skyvan a2a, using fuel that could be for the greater good if timings aren't tight at the airfield. I seem to remember in the past some aircraft have been close to bingo fuel after messing around with the Skyvans, so even one run and break could be off the cards, let alone a touch and go.
I've wondered for a few years if the Skyvan ends up impacting the paying punters on the ground in any way, you certainly do hear a few calls about being low on fuel now. Would be quite distasteful if it was.
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bobby 1211
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by bobby 1211 »

I also agree that the Baby blue team, Silver Swallows, Red Arrows and French Mustang X-ray demo were all very poor, and apart from the reds the crowd did not seem to care about those displays. Putting the Swiss demos last on both days meant people decided to leave early - and so did I.
I also think watching the same display for the 9th time makes it less interesting, the Freece for example are good but I would rather look around the static park when watch their display again.
Speaking of the static display some of the placement was awful.

bobby 1211
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by bobby 1211 »

BTW I was quite shocked I saw people in their 60s attending RIAT, barley walking, tripping over grass but trying to get that one photo🤨

Rob1309
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Rob1309 »

pbeardmore wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 9:24 am
"I pray the building work is completed for next year so we can at least be rid of the diggers"

“Well may I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain...."
Mate me and the wife are laughing a lot, top post so far this year.

Thanks
Rob

Rob1309
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Rob1309 »

Wissam24 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 2:31 pm
skippyscage wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 9:33 am
DeanW wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:25 am
I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
Most of the stars of the show are scooped up with the various Skyvan a2a, using fuel that could be for the greater good if timings aren't tight at the airfield. I seem to remember in the past some aircraft have been close to bingo fuel after messing around with the Skyvans, so even one run and break could be off the cards, let alone a touch and go.
I've wondered for a few years if the Skyvan ends up impacting the paying punters on the ground in any way, you certainly do hear a few calls about being low on fuel now. Would be quite distasteful if it was.
That has been my thought for a few years now, some lucky individuals getting a bigger bite of the aircraft arriving then us mortals at P&V hardy seems fair. Do they give any Money to RIAT.

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Wissam24
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Wissam24 »

Rob1309 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:30 pm
Wissam24 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 2:31 pm
skippyscage wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 9:33 am
DeanW wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:25 am
I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
Most of the stars of the show are scooped up with the various Skyvan a2a, using fuel that could be for the greater good if timings aren't tight at the airfield. I seem to remember in the past some aircraft have been close to bingo fuel after messing around with the Skyvans, so even one run and break could be off the cards, let alone a touch and go.
I've wondered for a few years if the Skyvan ends up impacting the paying punters on the ground in any way, you certainly do hear a few calls about being low on fuel now. Would be quite distasteful if it was.
That has been my thought for a few years now, some lucky individuals getting a bigger bite of the aircraft arriving then us mortals at P&V hardy seems fair. Do they give any Money to RIAT.
No, but RIAT get to put Rich Cooper on the Skyvan to get photos for the show (I surmise at no cost).
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G-CVIX
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by G-CVIX »

Wissam24 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 10:10 pm
Rob1309 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:30 pm
Wissam24 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 2:31 pm
skippyscage wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 9:33 am
DeanW wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:25 am
I’d love to see a return of the arrivals days where things were allowed to properly bash the circuit for a little bit. It was great to see the Swedes have a missed approach each, but the majority of the circuits/approaches appeared to be no less than 500ft. Take me back to Turkish F-5 and Hellenic A-7 touch and goes in 2007..!
Most of the stars of the show are scooped up with the various Skyvan a2a, using fuel that could be for the greater good if timings aren't tight at the airfield. I seem to remember in the past some aircraft have been close to bingo fuel after messing around with the Skyvans, so even one run and break could be off the cards, let alone a touch and go.
I've wondered for a few years if the Skyvan ends up impacting the paying punters on the ground in any way, you certainly do hear a few calls about being low on fuel now. Would be quite distasteful if it was.
That has been my thought for a few years now, some lucky individuals getting a bigger bite of the aircraft arriving then us mortals at P&V hardy seems fair. Do they give any Money to RIAT.
No, but RIAT get to put Rich Cooper on the Skyvan to get photos for the show (I surmise at no cost).
The correlation between increased Skyvan activity & less airfield activity is hard to ignore. I've been commenting on it for years now. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like RIAT have much say over it so I suppose getting their own photos from it is a pay off. I'd really like to see this questioned at the next FRIAT forum as (particularly on slower days like Wednesday) it does detract from the experience of the vast majority.

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G-CVIX
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by G-CVIX »

I've had a few days to digest/recover from a long, brilliant week, so here's my two cents. I've tried to focus on things that can be changed so not included comments on the weather, ignorant punters, etc.

Positives:
Great, varied participation.
I really appreciated a few special items arriving around the Friday flying display.
The use of the tree lined area for rarities.
Flying display aircraft parked in Yellow & Green - fantastic to have more aircraft parked in view.
Pre-show communication regarding aircraft participation was good and I appreciated it continuing into the week of the show with "official" cancellations.

Negatives:
George Bacon demanding that everybody leaves as soon as the flying finishes. Police telling people to leave at or before 1900. Either the showground shuts at 1930 or it doesn't. I appreciated that there's a lot to be done but we'll be off by 1930 so leave people alone. There's nothing wrong with a gentle reminder, but the police were actually telling people to leave at 1900. If you want people out by 1900, close the showground at 1900, not 1930.

Niggles:
While I liked the use of the tree lined area, some of the other displays were a long, long way down in Green - I hope that they got seen by enough people.
I like the Village Green but I think that it could be better executed with some more thought out static positioning.
I took the requests for the flying display to be the same on Sat/Sun to mean the same items, not the same timings. It would be nice to see the order swapped around a little bit on each day to get different light.
I still don't understand why we need the Fairford Eye or the Activity Zone, but I guess I'm not the target audience so maybe I never will.
Was the showground bus route different this year? There were places where it seemed like a trek just to find a bus stop. As a result, I never bothered using it.

FRIAT specific niggles:
No movement sheet on Friday & commentary that was on and off on Friday left me feeling completely out of the loop and isolated. More commentary in general would be appreciated.
The renewal form seems overly complicated... why do we need to request a seat when we renew when we are going to be called for payment anyway? Wouldn't it be easier to call in order of our numbered forms and allocate seats then? Collecting the forms on Friday was carnage.
Some variation on the food vendors in the enclosure would be nice.
I definitely miss getting the commemorative Squadron Print.
CH-53 & other helicopters departing straight out.

While it looks like there's a lot of negatives there, in reality, it was a fantastic week, a great show, and I hope we can reach a similar level next year.

Cheers :)

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Tuckat
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Tuckat »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Wed 20 Jul 2022, 8:18 pm
BTW I was quite shocked I saw people in their 60s attending RIAT, barley walking, tripping over grass but trying to get that one photo🤨
Oi Snowflake! I am one of those 60+ barley walkers, I’ve been barley walking at airshows with a camera for over 40 years and not managed to fall over yet. Never mind snowflake, at least I wasn’t in danger of melting, mainly thanks to the endless reminders to put on sun cream, wear a hat and drink loads of water. Perhaps next year there will be a 60+ barley walkers enclosure with reclining chairs and blankets to cover up if the temperature drops below 30c 😎

* Edited to add that barley walking is a popular pastime where I live in Devon. There’s fields of the stuff everywhere 🙂
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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by capercaillie »

Trouble with those barley walking, they are all cereal offenders!
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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Bodz156 »

What even is a 'barley walker'? Is it a regional colloquialism I haven't come across up north? :thinking:

cg_341
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by cg_341 »

Perhaps they're walkers who have turned their barley into various drinks that, after consumption, cause them to fall over?

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Tuckat
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by Tuckat »

I’m amaized no one has ever heard of it before!
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by CJS »

Tuckat wrote:
Thu 21 Jul 2022, 11:54 am
I’m amaized no one has ever heard of it before!
They can't walk, they hop...
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TonyB
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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by TonyB »

He succeeded in winding people up, even if he can barley spell.

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Re: RIAT 2022 Feedback and thoughts

Post by capercaillie »

Did he suck seed, that goes against the grain? When the Buffs pulled out he was being a bit of a wall-flour.
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