Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

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ericbee123
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ericbee123 »

I might have thrown a curveball into the conversation. I was just trying to point out that 10 months isn’t a long time to plan the move of a Vulcan.

I was wondering aloud how long you would need to dismantle it if you had any thoughts of keeping it taxi-able.

It’s still less fanciful than a ferry flight.

There are currently 15 Vulcans in the U.K. ( by my reckoning ), 3 of which are in taxying condition.

It’s not exactly a rare beast.

Let’s just say going to 2 taxying Vulcans is a bad thing, now, let’s say that moving this one in a taxi-able condition, or even a state that it could be made taxi-able in the future, is impossible.

Would it be then be possible to make one of the other 12 static Vulcans taxi-able by using the salvageable working bits from XH558 ?

We would still have 15 Vulcans and 3 of them capable of taxying. One of the taxying ones wouldn’t be “the last Vulcan that flew” , but who really cares. That would be a static somewhere, possibly.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm
I might have thrown a curveball into the conversation. I was just trying to point out that 10 months isn’t a long time to plan the move of a Vulcan.

I was wondering aloud how long you would need to dismantle it if you had any thoughts of keeping it taxi-able.
Its never been done before, so who knows?
ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm
Would it be then be possible to make one of the other 12 static Vulcans taxi-able by using the salvageable working bits from XH558 ?
The problem with that is that most of them are inside museums, or outside in museums with no access to a runway to taxy on!!

Probably the only one that has an accessible runway would be '607 at Waddo, but I think the chances of making that into a structurally sound a/c with working systems again, if with all of the bits from '558 are slim, plus the fact that '607 is a 301 engine Vulcan, and '558, like sister VDF a/c '426 at Southend is a 202 engine Vulcan.
In fact the only other 202 engine Vulcan's in the UK are '318 in RAFM Hendon and '319 at NE LS&A Museum at Sunderland.

So, no would be the answer to that question.

purple_95
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by purple_95 »

I thought 575 at East Midlands itself a ground runner in the 80s and 90s was 202 powered but I stand to be corrected.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm

...I was wondering aloud how long you would need to dismantle it if you had any thoughts of keeping it taxi-able.

It’s still less fanciful than a ferry flight...
I'm not sure that VttS would agree with you there; they're actively pursuing the possibility (very remote to non-existant) of a ferry flight, whereas returning to a taxiable condition after road transport isn't even on the table.

For the sake of discussion, I'd rate the percentage chances of possible outcomes about so: -

XH558 is scrapped (c. mid 2023) when all other options exhausted; cockpit section saved. 55%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled as a static exhibit. 42.5%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled into running/taxiable condition. 0%

One off ferry flight - XH558 saved in running/taxiable condition. 0.5%

Something significantly different that I haven't thought of. 2%


I'd be interested in other views....
And as the smart ship grew,
In stature, grace and hue,
In shadowy silent distance grew the iceberg too....

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Seahornet
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

purple_95 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 1:38 pm
I thought 575 at East Midlands itself a ground runner in the 80s and 90s was 202 powered but I stand to be corrected.
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8992902

Those are definitely 301 exhausts...
And as the smart ship grew,
In stature, grace and hue,
In shadowy silent distance grew the iceberg too....

GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Am pretty sure all the XM serial a/c are all 301 engine? However, I should have been a bit more specific by ref it to B.2's, as I think the B.2A at Duxford might be a 202, as well as the B.2A at MAM, as both are XJ & XL serials, and poss the B.2A at Carlisle might be 202 powered as well as that's an XJ.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Seahornet wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 1:42 pm
ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm

...I was wondering aloud how long you would need to dismantle it if you had any thoughts of keeping it taxi-able.

It’s still less fanciful than a ferry flight...
I'm not sure that VttS would agree with you there; they're actively pursuing the possibility (very remote to non-existant) of a ferry flight, whereas returning to a taxiable condition after road transport isn't even on the table.
They say they are.....as it helps stir up the die hard fans, and gives them hope, no matter how false.

BUT....have they really dared make that call to the CAA as without RR and Marshall's on board its a non-starter, and I think we all know (including VTTS) what the response from RR would be (and likely Marshalls) given the past history....even for a gear down one off positioning flight, after 7 years on the ground. Would any of the ex-Vulcan display crews be even willing to fly the thing in the circumstances?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Seahornet wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 1:42 pm
[quote=ericbee123 post_id=927483 time=1660

For the sake of discussion, I'd rate the percentage chances of possible outcomes about so: -

XH558 is scrapped (c. mid 2023) when all other options exhausted; cockpit section saved. 55%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled as a static exhibit. 42.5%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled into running/taxiable condition. 0%

One off ferry flight - XH558 saved in running/taxiable condition. 0.5%

Something significantly different that I haven't thought of. 2%


I'd be interested in other views....
In answer to your question about something else. Nobody seem to be considering keeping XH558 at Doncaster airport. Lets accept there will be no runway and no engine runs. Whilst not wishing to speak for another Museum could Aeroventure at Doncaster not become involved ? The chances of moving 558 to their site are zero but the Vulcan is only five/six miles away, if a secure site at the airport can be found that might actually be the cheapest and best long term solution.
Peel (the airport's current owners) will require a lot of planning permissions for change of usage. Time is now to lobby the local authorities to gain a small but secure area for 558. Sadly the current VTOC hangar plans are to ambitious (expensive) but they say they have money to spend on crazy relocation plans.

In short make the strongest case to stay put and let another local museum share 558. The Vulcan does have story to tell even if that story is the same as all the Vulcans, but remember this one is actually on a former RAF V bomber base.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 5944 »

GeeRam wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 5:30 pm
Would any of the ex-Vulcan display crews be even willing to fly the thing in the circumstances?
Anyone got Kev Rumens' number?

:upside_down:

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 6:04 pm
In answer to your question about something else. Nobody seem to be considering keeping XH558 at Doncaster airport. Lets accept there will be no runway and no engine runs. Whilst not wishing to speak for another Museum could Aeroventure at Doncaster not become involved ?
The biggest stumbling block to get anyone else involved is always VTTS. This may well also prevent them finding any other site to try and move it to, even if they can afford that.

I do actually see a situation where it might stay in one piece at DSA....and maybe the most likely scenario out of all the options.
If VTTS can't come up with a site, and plan for taking it apart to move it somewhere else, which I think is highly likely, what happens when the date in June 2023 passes, and Peel kick them off site?
Legally, does 558 pass into Peel Group ownership? If so (and maybe this is their plan) they might be looking at towing it into a place as gate guardian to their new Vulcan Distribution Centre :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: that they will build on the site. Maybe at that point, Aeroventure or other volunteers might get involved in trying to look after it as best they can for the next few decades before the elements take their toll on the old girl.

The only other outcome is that VTTS announce they are going to scrap it and melt it down into Vulcan shaped keyrings to flog off to all their supporters, saying "Own own a part of 558" thereby further lining their own pockets for a few more years selling all that stuff off.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

GeeRam wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 5:20 pm
Am pretty sure all the XM serial a/c are all 301 engine? However, I should have been a bit more specific by ref it to B.2's, as I think the B.2A at Duxford might be a 202, as well as the B.2A at MAM, as both are XJ & XL serials, and poss the B.2A at Carlisle might be 202 powered as well as that's an XJ.
What’s a B.2A?
Ken

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Ken Shabby wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 9:13 pm
GeeRam wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 5:20 pm
Am pretty sure all the XM serial a/c are all 301 engine? However, I should have been a bit more specific by ref it to B.2's, as I think the B.2A at Duxford might be a 202, as well as the B.2A at MAM, as both are XJ & XL serials, and poss the B.2A at Carlisle might be 202 powered as well as that's an XJ.
What’s a B.2A?
That's my fault from trying to remember stuff without access to info.....and I'm getting old.
B.2A was designation for Blue Steel versions, but most were converted back to B.2 when Blue Steel was withdrawn. However, I thought all Blue Steel aircraft were 301 powered?
I need to dig out the books when I get a chance :laughing:

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Marka1967 »

We can all speculate to what will and how it will happen but without shed loads of money nothing will happen and it will end up in the bin.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

GeeRam wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 9:38 pm
[quote="Ken Shabby" post_id=927514 time=<a href="tel:1661029989">1661029989</a> user_id=1434]
[quote=GeeRam post_id=927500 time=<a href="tel:1661016009">1661016009</a> user_id=25419]
Am pretty sure all the XM serial a/c are all 301 engine? However, I should have been a bit more specific by ref it to B.2's, as I think the B.2A at Duxford might be a 202, as well as the B.2A at MAM, as both are XJ & XL serials, and poss the B.2A at Carlisle might be 202 powered as well as that's an XJ.
What’s a B.2A?
[/quote]

That's my fault from trying to remember stuff without access to info.....and I'm getting old.
B.2A was designation for Blue Steel versions, but most were converted back to B.2 when Blue Steel was withdrawn. However, I thought all Blue Steel aircraft were 301 powered?
I need to dig out the books when I get a chance :laughing:
[/quote]

I must apologised as I was, in fact, doing a bit of ‘fishing’ with my questions to see what your thoughts were on the B.2A. I did some research into the B.2A some years ago and came to the conclusion it was a bit of an urban legend, so to speak.

Some Vulcan histories referred to the B.2A but its application wasn’t consistent. Some used it as the designation for Vulcans capable of carrying Blue Steel and others for aircraft fitted with the Olympus 300 series engines as opposed to the 200 series. (Blue Steel was carried by both 200 and 300 aircraft.)

One book even used the designation B.2 BS to differentiate the Blue Steel carriers.

I couldn’t find any official reference to B.2A, though. I spoke to some ex-ground crew and none could recall it being used during their time on the Vulcan.

It’s use is very widespread, though, so it must have originated somewhere even if it’s not an official designation (although I’m happy to be proved wrong on that).
Ken

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Reds Rolling »

Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 8:50 am
We can all speculate to what will and how it will happen but without shed loads of money nothing will happen and it will end up in the bin.
You can guarantee it is going to cost a lot of money to move XH558 regardless of whether that is in the air or on the ground.

The crazy thing is, that 'only' another £15,000 gets XL426 at Southend IN A HANGAR! This Vulcan can actually fast taxi, isn't in imminent danger, and people can visit it without it costing the Earth.

In my opinion, this is the one that makes sense for people to be getting behind and donating to.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Marka1967 »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 10:56 am
Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 8:50 am
We can all speculate to what will and how it will happen but without shed loads of money nothing will happen and it will end up in the bin.
You can guarantee it is going to cost a lot of money to move XH558 regardless of whether that is in the air or on the ground.

The crazy thing is, that 'only' another £15,000 gets XL426 at Southend IN A HANGAR! This Vulcan can actually fast taxi, isn't in imminent danger, and people can visit it without it costing the Earth.

In my opinion, this is the one that makes sense for people to be getting behind and donating to.
Don't forget XM655 at Wellesbourne.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

Then maybe they should take a leaf out of VTST's book and start pushing their fundraising appeal with the media.
Like them or loath them ( and some of us have been in both camps, sometimes at the same time ) the one thing VTST have managed to do in the past is get the national media involved, not to mention coming up with various schemes which other preservation groups later copied ( 'name on the bomb-bay' being the prime example, and would I be right in thinking they were the first ones to do the Gold/Silver/Bronze donor scheme? )
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Reds Rolling »

Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 11:31 am
Reds Rolling wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 10:56 am
Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 8:50 am
We can all speculate to what will and how it will happen but without shed loads of money nothing will happen and it will end up in the bin.
You can guarantee it is going to cost a lot of money to move XH558 regardless of whether that is in the air or on the ground.

The crazy thing is, that 'only' another £15,000 gets XL426 at Southend IN A HANGAR! This Vulcan can actually fast taxi, isn't in imminent danger, and people can visit it without it costing the Earth.

In my opinion, this is the one that makes sense for people to be getting behind and donating to.
Don't forget XM655 at Wellesbourne.
Does XM655 still do engine runs and fast taxiing? I thought I heard that Wellesborne was under threat from development?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

Seahornet wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 1:42 pm
ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm

...I was wondering aloud how long you would need to dismantle it if you had any thoughts of keeping it taxi-able.

It’s still less fanciful than a ferry flight...
I'm not sure that VttS would agree with you there; they're actively pursuing the possibility (very remote to non-existant) of a ferry flight, whereas returning to a taxiable condition after road transport isn't even on the table.

For the sake of discussion, I'd rate the percentage chances of possible outcomes about so: -

XH558 is scrapped (c. mid 2023) when all other options exhausted; cockpit section saved. 55%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled as a static exhibit. 42.5%

XH558 dismantled, transported to ???, reassembled into running/taxiable condition. 0%

One off ferry flight - XH558 saved in running/taxiable condition. 0.5%

Something significantly different that I haven't thought of. 2%


I'd be interested in other views....
I did mention earlier in this thread that it is conceivable that pressure could be brought to bear on Peel for the aircraft to be permitted to stay where it is. I know that VTST has been served notice but this can be changed. Maybe Doncaster can be saved as a airport? Maybe the only option is that 558 be mounted on a plinth on site or close by? Given the cost and extreme difficulty of the other options I reckon this is the only one that can be considered realistic! Thoughts welcome….

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

And the current plight of XH558 has just been featured on BBC News24, which clearly illustrated my previous post.
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purple_95
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by purple_95 »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 2:11 pm
Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 11:31 am
Reds Rolling wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 10:56 am
Marka1967 wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 8:50 am
We can all speculate to what will and how it will happen but without shed loads of money nothing will happen and it will end up in the bin.
You can guarantee it is going to cost a lot of money to move XH558 regardless of whether that is in the air or on the ground.

The crazy thing is, that 'only' another £15,000 gets XL426 at Southend IN A HANGAR! This Vulcan can actually fast taxi, isn't in imminent danger, and people can visit it without it costing the Earth.

In my opinion, this is the one that makes sense for people to be getting behind and donating to.
Don't forget XM655 at Wellesbourne.
Does XM655 still do engine runs and fast taxiing? I thought I heard that Wellesborne was under threat from development?
Yes XM655 does still do engine and taxi runs, not exactly sure what the situation is at Wellesbourne but I think some sort of order was made by the local council thus meaning it has to remain as an airfield.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Jakub.Zurek »

Sunday 18th September is the next taxi run of XM655 at Wellesbourne.

Honestly it’s pretty amazing how much the guys there and at Southend can do with such a limited budget/resources compared to XH558…

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

Jakub.Zurek wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 6:17 pm
Sunday 18th September is the next taxi run of XM655 at Wellesbourne.

Honestly it’s pretty amazing how much the guys there and at Southend can do with such a limited budget/resources compared to XH558…
Next Saturday for XL426 at Southend.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"

Marka1967
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Marka1967 »

Jakub.Zurek wrote:
Sun 21 Aug 2022, 6:17 pm
Sunday 18th September is the next taxi run of XM655 at Wellesbourne.

Honestly it’s pretty amazing how much the guys there and at Southend can do with such a limited budget/resources compared to XH558…
Yes it is and I have first hand experience because I worked on 655 from 1994 until 2011 ended up as crew chief. Its all about the people really, everyone is a volunteer with the same interest there is no politics or cobblers you just get on with preserving the aircraft. You do it because you want to not for any reward.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

From today's newsletter :
Since being told that our agreement for parking our aircraft at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA) will not be renewed in June 2023, and that we would have to leave the site at that time, the Trustees and the VTST team have been very busy.

We recently let you know that we have two potential sites in negotiation, where we know that Vulcan XH558 will be protected for decades to come. The sites would deliver Dr Robert Pleming’s vision of telling the Cold War story and the role of the V-Force and inspiring youngsters to pursue meaningful and productive careers in engineering. The sites also provide much greater access for supporters to come and see XH558 up close.

We have options of where to go, but our challenge is how to get there. We have been investigating the potential of a one-off ferry flight for XH558 to leave DSA. The alternative is to dismantle and move and rebuild XH558 in her dedicated permanent home.

While we were always informed that we would not get approval for her to fly again by the CAA, we have recently been told that “the CAA rules may have changed”. In hearing that a ferry flight might be a potential option, it is not something that we could ignore.

Vulcan XH558 flew in the Complex category and to date remains the only ‘complex’ one to be returned to the Civil Aviation register. A condition of the Complex category, and a legal requirement, is that the aircraft’s Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) or a Design Authority are contracted to provide ongoing airworthiness design support. Back in 2015, the OEMs notified the Trust that this support was to be withdrawn at the end of that year, as they felt that they could not find people with sufficient expertise to help. This meant XH558 was no longer allowed to fly.

In our current discussions with the CAA, we have been told the rules have not changed. A Design Authority is still a legal requirement, even for a short ferry flight. The VTST team are working hard to explore if there are any Design Authorities able to support an aircraft as complex as the Vulcan for a one-off ferry flight.

In June 2004, the Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) granted £2.7million for XH558’s restoration. The Trust maintains regular contact with the HLF and have apprised them of the current situation. The scope of the grant from the HLF also included the provision of public access to XH558 on the ground, and the setup of educational activities to tell the story of the Cold War and to provide lessons for schoolchildren in technology, engineering and maths based on the aircraft and her operation. At the time of approval, the HLF’s Chair, Liz Forgan, said: “In the normal way of things we do not restore aircraft to flight but the HLF was really impressed with the imaginative way in which the Trust’s new proposal will let as many people as possible learn about this important part of their heritage.”

Due to the business requirements of DSA, in January 2017, XH558 had to move out of Hangar 3. Since then, delivering our educational message has been challenging, but not impossible. We have had many successes working with local schools and education centres, such as partnering with Doncaster UTC on an employer-led engineering project, which saw the students using the original plans and sketches of the Vulcan, an iconic example of British aeronautical design excellence. Their task was to redesign the wing of the aircraft using modern materials and manufacturing processes.

The project helped towards a decision to award the UTC the award for New Educational Institution of the year – UK.

In partnership with The Work-wise Foundation and CBE+, we invited secondary schools to design an interactive exhibition to display an original Bomb-Bay Fuel Tank which was removed from Vulcan XH558. The fuel tank was installed inside XH558 when she landed at Bruntingthorpe airfield on her final flight in RAF service and was removed as part of the return to flight project. The winning design and all other entries were displayed alongside Vulcan XH558’s Bomb-Bay Fuel Tank at Get up to Speed with STEM on 23 March 2022 at Magna Science Adventure Centre.

This year sees the launch of Dr Pleming’s Delta Wing Project. The project asks both Primary and Secondary schools from the Delta Academies Trust to get involved in creating displays to showcase the Delta Wing of Vulcan XH558. These are just a few examples of the exiting projects that Vulcan XH558 is involved with. These outreach projects are testimony to the effect that the Vulcan has on inspiring young people.

The HLF remains supportive of the Trust’s plans and will be part of the decision-making process of securing XH558’s long-term future in a home where we can fully deliver Robert’s vision of telling the story of the RAF, its people and the Cold War based around the V-Force and the famous Avro Vulcan XH558, and inspiring future generations to pursue meaningful and productive careers in science, technology, engineering and maths roles.

We will update you with more news as soon as we are able to.
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