Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

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FarnboroJohn
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by FarnboroJohn »

pbeardmore wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 9:44 am
Tommy wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 8:42 am
boff180 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:08 am
I’ve seen plenty of 8 aircraft displays but not 7.
The 2012 season was a 7-ship display, as has been mentioned.

Re the 7/8-ship, I know that they have displayed with 8, but it usually leaves a very noticeable gap in the formation, I was wondering if they perhaps needed an odd number when working up for the entire season (rather than occasions of pilot sickness), as that appears to be what happened in 2012. But the video I posted a week or so ago, showed 8 aircraft.

In any event, it’s moot, according to the DM, it’s two pilots who have been moved on anyway.
Not the DM, direct from RAFAT page "as two of our formation pilots have moved to other roles within the RAF. "
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Mike »

pbeardmore wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 9:44 am
"as two of our formation pilots have moved to other roles within the RAF. "
Does the RAF still have cargo planes flying rubber dogsh1t out of Hong Kong?

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pbeardmore
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by pbeardmore »

The cynic in me says that, if the scandal is not so big and following the Queens knees up, they could stick to 7 permantly. Salami slices is so much the easier option
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Mike »

Any bets as to how long before they are renamed “The Red Arrow”?

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st24
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by st24 »

boff180 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:08 am
Re: 7/8 ship displays.

I’ve seen plenty of 8 aircraft displays but not 7.

The team practice every year to display whilst a team member is missing, they just fly with a gap in the formation as they all form off of Red 1.

Indeed, their first display post COVID last year was an 8 ship as aircraft had gone tech!

The difference this year is eagle eyed spotters noticed that the 8 ship formation being flown (now 7) during Springhawk had been deliberately modified to reflect the reduced number of aircraft. (No gaps and a symmetrical formation) making it appear tbe 8-ship was a deliberate change - not practicing for a contingency.

As for if there is a synchrog pair this yeah - no IdeArt
Must admit Andy I've seen quite the reverse. An 8 ship is usually a last resort when a pilot and/or a/c goes sick either just before/during a display or, over a weekend/couple of weekends - a stop gap if you will. A 7 ship is very much the set up should there be some form of incapacity in the run up prior to PDA - long term sickness, war(!), bereavement, not cutting the mustard, or as appears in this case, some form of misdemeanour(s). Being as a 7 ship looks much more "even" than an 8 ship then its retained for the whole season, hence why I've seen more of them over the years, even in the Gnat days.
Whatever the cause it has cast the Reds/RAF/services in general in a poor light when support for them is needed more than ever. Of course it has happened before - be it a showboating Typhoon display pilot for the video camera, a Hawk pilot pushing the limits or a Lightning pilot disobeying the rules and displaying on his home turf, the latter unfortunately costing his life.
I feel sorry for the guys (unsure if there were any gals in the selection last year) who got the chop and who may have conducted themselves with a little more of the expected standards that would have resulted in a full 9 ship this year and no blemish on the Reds...
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st24
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by st24 »

pbeardmore wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 9:44 am


In any event, it’s moot, according to the DM, it’s two pilots who have been moved on anyway.
Not the DM, direct from RAFAT page "as two of our formation pilots have moved to other roles within the RAF. "
[/quote]

Quite the damning sentence - this just doesn't happen a few weeks before start of the season, particularly a notable flag -waving season.

Never mind, they'll be in the Blades next year... :wink: :kissing:
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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

st24 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:03 pm
An 8 ship is usually a last resort when a pilot and/or a/c goes sick either just before/during a display or, over a weekend/couple of weekends - a stop gap if you will. A 7 ship is very much the set up should there be some form of incapacity in the run up prior to PDA - long term sickness, war(!), bereavement, not cutting the mustard, or as appears in this case, some form of misdemeanour(s). Being as a 7 ship looks much more "even" than an 8 ship then its retained for the whole season, hence why I've seen more of them over the years, even in the Gnat days.
They'd actually worked up an 8 ship and were flying it in rehearsal displays in Greece though - not a 9-1, but new formation shapes so that the 8 was symmetrical. Whether they've deemed that a no-go or whether there's more to it, I suppose we may find out in due course, or not.

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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:34 pm
st24 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:03 pm
An 8 ship is usually a last resort when a pilot and/or a/c goes sick either just before/during a display or, over a weekend/couple of weekends - a stop gap if you will. A 7 ship is very much the set up should there be some form of incapacity in the run up prior to PDA - long term sickness, war(!), bereavement, not cutting the mustard, or as appears in this case, some form of misdemeanour(s). Being as a 7 ship looks much more "even" than an 8 ship then its retained for the whole season, hence why I've seen more of them over the years, even in the Gnat days.
They'd actually worked up an 8 ship and were flying it in rehearsal displays in Greece though - not a 9-1, but new formation shapes so that the 8 was symmetrical. Whether they've deemed that a no-go or whether there's more to it, I suppose we may find out in due course, or not.
Similar to the PdF ?

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pbeardmore
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by pbeardmore »

Imagine the effect on moral, you lose, 1, work up an 8 ship display, then lose another....

"To lose one may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose two looks like carelessness!"
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st24
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by st24 »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:34 pm
st24 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:03 pm
An 8 ship is usually a last resort when a pilot and/or a/c goes sick either just before/during a display or, over a weekend/couple of weekends - a stop gap if you will. A 7 ship is very much the set up should there be some form of incapacity in the run up prior to PDA - long term sickness, war(!), bereavement, not cutting the mustard, or as appears in this case, some form of misdemeanour(s). Being as a 7 ship looks much more "even" than an 8 ship then its retained for the whole season, hence why I've seen more of them over the years, even in the Gnat days.
They'd actually worked up an 8 ship and were flying it in rehearsal displays in Greece though - not a 9-1, but new formation shapes so that the 8 was symmetrical. Whether they've deemed that a no-go or whether there's more to it, I suppose we may find out in due course, or not.
Oh right, didn't realise that Nige, how peculiar! Completely changing the Reds dynamics..
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Gregson
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Gregson »

Mike wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 12:37 pm
Tommy wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 10:39 am
A similar thing happened in 2012, and Kirsty had to leave the team very sadly (albeit for for much more justifiable reasons, iirc).
Sleeping with the (married) boss, and then lying about it to an enquiry, IIRC. And then becoming the only Red Arrows pilot in the history of the team to walk away mid-season.
Wow, Mike! Great demonstration of how to write a judgemental sentence from a male perspective and put all of the blame onto the woman, well done :thinking:

So the boss was totally blameless then? Pushed her away did he? It takes two to tango you know - or has it been that long for you that you can't remember (you sound rather bitter in your reply :rofl:)

How about re-phrasing it as "the married boss of the squadron seduces the only female pilot under his command".

It doesn't take much to see why there is no equality in his world and that women feel like second class citizens... some days I hate being associated with adult men and their playground attitudes that they are better than women :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

Your post perfectly demonstrates why there are so few (if any!?) female spotters... Why the hell would they want to hang around at a fence-line with this bunch of misogynistic idiots.

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

Gregson wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:51 pm
Wow, Mike! Great demonstration of how to write a judgemental sentence from a male perspective and put all of the blame onto the woman, well done :thinking:

So the boss was totally blameless then? Pushed her away did he? It takes two to tango you know - or has it been that long for you that you can't remember (you sound rather bitter in your reply :rofl:)

How about re-phrasing it as "the married boss of the squadron seduces the only female pilot under his command".

It doesn't take much to see why there is no equality in his world and that women feel like second class citizens... some days I hate being associated with adult men and their playground attitudes that they are better than women :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

Your post perfectly demonstrates why there are so few (if any!?) female spotters... Why the hell would they want to hang around at a fence-line with this bunch of misogynistic idiots.
Well that's an 'interesting' response Gregson. A few points if I may:

1. It takes 2 to tango - exactly!
2. The boss was married; she slept with him. Please point out what's wrong with that as a statement? The post was about why shewas removed from the team, not about him. She was the subject of the sentence, not him. There could have been comments made about him too, but there weren't.
3. Did she lie? I dunno (or care very much) but if she did then, again, it's simply a fact. He may well have lied too, but that's not what's being discussed.
4. Your re-phrasing absolves her of any blame, thus discrediting your 2 to tango argument completely. It of course also alleges something far more sinister towards the then boss - do you have any evidence to back this up? Maybe you to, it's not given here though, but I think I'd want to retract a statement like that unless I could back it up.

As for your last sentence, well yes, I'm sure there are some misogynistic idiots who are also plane spotters. In my experience, and I've met a few spotters (albeit not that many) they all seem pretty normal to me! I also don't much like being tarnished with your brush, as I imagine most on here wouldn't be, which is what you've done, intentionally or otherwise.

Maybe take a breath before you post in this way again - just a thought.

(And if you were trolling for a response well then: you're welcome!)
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phreakf4
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by phreakf4 »

In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
nothing is confirmed at a show until its u/c hits the tarmac or it is running in for its display.....

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

phreakf4 wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:16 am
In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
I don't know the details, do you?

Maybe it wasn't fair, if so that's wrong of course. Maybe she seduced him? Maybe she didn't, but maybe she did.

Who knows - I certainly don't - but I stand by the fact Gregson's post in reply to Mike's was unfair.
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Northdownaeros
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Northdownaeros »

phreakf4 wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:16 am
In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
Remove the team leader, the team finishes for that season. Simples.

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Mike
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Mike »

phreakf4 wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:16 am
In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
Neither was removed from the team. They both denied the affair, and no further action was taken. She walked away from the team mid-season, and later left the RAF. He came to the end of his posting, and also left the RAF.

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

Mike wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:41 am
phreakf4 wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:16 am
In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
Neither was removed from the team. They both denied the affair, and no further action was taken. She walked away from the team mid-season, and later left the RAF. He came to the end of his posting, and also left the RAF.
Well there ya go, thanks Mike. Problem solved, turns out we're not all 'misogynistic idiots' after all Gregson :rolling_eyes:

And for what it's worth, it was me I think who suggested she had been removed from the team, which I had wrongly assumed was the case: apologies for that.
Last edited by CJS on Tue 17 May 2022, 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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starbuck
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by starbuck »

Northdownaeros wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:39 am
phreakf4 wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:16 am
In reply to CJS, that raises the question "Why was she removed from the team but not him? They both committed the same alleged "offence" but the male involved apparently suffered less harsh consequences than the female. That is not in any sense equitable.
Remove the team leader, the team finishes for that season. Simples.

The Reds should stick to golf when off duty…..
You mean scoring birdies?

who said this forum is dying? all that's needed is a little bit of tittle tattle red top scandal to get everyone going again. Throw in a bit of misogyny and snowflake virtue signalling liberalism and we're sorted.

I'm just glad we still have the Red Arrows. Far superior to those Black Arrows we used to have.

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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

starbuck wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 8:48 am
Throw in a bit of misogyny and snowflake virtue signalling liberalism and we're sorted.
Ooh was that me? Please tell me that was me, I've never been accused of something so cool sounding before :rofl:
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starbuck
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by starbuck »

you can be whoever you want to be. I don't label! To be honest I don't know what it really means, i just hear it used all over the place these days so thought it would probably work in this context.

Anyway, anyone else heard about how that guy in the back of the Chinook got his hands so big and orange?

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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

starbuck wrote:
Tue 17 May 2022, 9:06 am
you can be whoever you want to be. I don't label! To be honest I don't know what it really means, i just hear it used all over the place these days so thought it would probably work in this context.

Anyway, anyone else heard about how that guy in the back of the Chinook got his hands so big and orange?
How dare you tarnish all plane spotters as orange-handed perverts, you misogynistic idiot 🤪
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spellow3010
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by spellow3010 »

In the space of two pages, this thread has probably become a microcosm as to why there is a perception that this forum is dying. It really isn't a friendly place. And although the Mods/Staffers enjoy their muli-coloured font screen names, I do not think there is anywhere near enough moderation of trolling or 'bigger d**k than you' one-upmanship posts.

Frankly, without the facts, some of the posts here should simply be deleted. I'm genuinely amazed that this thread has not been locked. There would be no hesitation but to lock a debate about some four engined Avro jet. So why has this helter-skelter of alleged malfeasant bravado not been pulled?

The forum is awash with snarky, sarcastic, sneering counter posts in thread after thread. It's often a circle jerk for the same old screen names. 'We know more than you...' and 'rivet counting pedantry.' Get over yourselves folks.

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CJS
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by CJS »

spellow3010 wrote:
Wed 18 May 2022, 7:09 am
In the space of two pages, this thread has probably become a microcosm as to why there is a perception that this forum is dying. It really isn't a friendly place. And although the Mods/Staffers enjoy their muli-coloured font screen names, I do not think there is anywhere near enough moderation of trolling or 'bigger d**k than you' one-upmanship posts.

Frankly, without the facts, some of the posts here should simply be deleted. I'm genuinely amazed that this thread has not been locked. There would be no hesitation but to lock a debate about some four engined Avro jet. So why has this helter-skelter of alleged malfeasant bravado not been pulled?

The forum is awash with snarky, sarcastic, sneering counter posts in thread after thread. It's often a circle jerk for the same old screen names. 'We know more than you...' and 'rivet counting pedantry.' Get over yourselves folks.

And no, I am not perfect. Never have been, and never will.
I don't see the problem with this thread to be honest. I mean, there have been some flippant responses (hands held up to that myself of course) but actually it's just been people replying to opinions, which ended with Mike clearing up the confusion (which, again, had been caused by me at least in part and for which I've already apologised).

Other than one post that accused someone of something - something pretty serious - without backing it up, which was (by me, but that's of no relevance) challenged and then the 3 or so posts that came after that. Gregson hasn't been back to reply and that's up to them obviously, but s/he could have quite easily.

It's certainly no worse than a lot of threads on here, and I really don't see any 'bigger d**k than you' comments at all (although clearly mine is, just for the record :laughing: ).
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Thoughtful_Flyer
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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

spellow3010 wrote:
Wed 18 May 2022, 7:09 am
In the space of two pages, this thread has probably become a microcosm as to why there is a perception that this forum is dying. It really isn't a friendly place. And although the Mods/Staffers enjoy their muli-coloured font screen names, I do not think there is anywhere near enough moderation of trolling or 'bigger d**k than you' one-upmanship posts.

Frankly, without the facts, some of the posts here should simply be deleted. I'm genuinely amazed that this thread has not been locked. There would be no hesitation but to lock a debate about some four engined Avro jet. So why has this helter-skelter of alleged malfeasant bravado not been pulled?

The forum is awash with snarky, sarcastic, sneering counter posts in thread after thread. It's often a circle jerk for the same old screen names. 'We know more than you...' and 'rivet counting pedantry.' Get over yourselves folks.

And no, I am not perfect. Never have been, and never will.
I was just wondering how the phrases I have highlighted were in keeping with the professional image you seem to crave?

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Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by rdchawk »

Why does the cynic in me think this is a cost cutting exercise? Also has Lingy stopped answering their calls?
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