Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

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aviodromefriend
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by aviodromefriend »

CJS wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 5:45 am
...err...remantling (?)
re-assembling
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Marka1967
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Marka1967 »

CJS wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 5:45 am
Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 10:18 pm
ExVulcanGC wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 4:19 pm
I suppose that technically the money that has been donated towards the now defunct new hangar should be offered back to those who donated it as it has not been used for the purpose it was donated for. If the people state that it can be used to help 558's future, or for that matter the Canberra (which is more likely), and if all still does not go to plan then the money should be returned at that point, rather than being used to pay off the paid staff/debts etc.
It has been offered back. According to VTST, nine out of 10 donors said their donations could be kept. Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.

This assuming, of course, that it hasn’t already been spent.
Is there anyone in here who could have a reasonable stab at estimating the cost of moving '558 out by road ?
Let's say I approach the VTST people with my chequebook (there's no school like the old school) and promise to cover the cost of dismantling, ferry by road and...err...remantling (?) at the other end. How much are they going to need?

It's a genuine question, I've got no idea.
I bet you wouldn't get much change out of a million quid.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Marka1967 wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 8:49 am
CJS wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 5:45 am
Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 10:18 pm
ExVulcanGC wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 4:19 pm
I suppose that technically the money that has been donated towards the now defunct new hangar should be offered back to those who donated it as it has not been used for the purpose it was donated for. If the people state that it can be used to help 558's future, or for that matter the Canberra (which is more likely), and if all still does not go to plan then the money should be returned at that point, rather than being used to pay off the paid staff/debts etc.
It has been offered back. According to VTST, nine out of 10 donors said their donations could be kept. Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.

This assuming, of course, that it hasn’t already been spent.
Is there anyone in here who could have a reasonable stab at estimating the cost of moving '558 out by road ?
Let's say I approach the VTST people with my chequebook (there's no school like the old school) and promise to cover the cost of dismantling, ferry by road and...err...remantling (?) at the other end. How much are they going to need?

It's a genuine question, I've got no idea.
I bet you wouldn't get much change out of a million quid.
Given that they pretty much already admitted that if they can dismantle and move it to a new location, it can't be put back together as a live aircraft again, the cost of reassemble won't be a reverse of disassembly as the engines, and other live components not needed again, will go to 426, and won't need to go back in once its at its new location?
Well, I'd like to think the engines and other bits will go to 426......but this is VTTS we're talking about (still prefer to use VTTS for Vulcan To The Skip :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: )

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by NAM Updater »

GeeRam wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 11:19 am
Given that they pretty much already admitted that if they can dismantle and move it to a new location, it can't be put back together as a live aircraft again, the cost of reassemble won't be a reverse of disassembly as the engines, and other live components not needed again, will go to 426, and won't need to go back in once its at its new location?
Well, I'd like to think the engines and other bits will go to 426......but this is VTTS we're talking about (still prefer to use VTTS for Vulcan To The Skip :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: )
Also, perhaps the many other Vulcans that yielded parts and documentation for the RTF phase of the project might also be able to finally get their parts back!
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

NAM Updater wrote:
Tue 06 Sep 2022, 6:47 am
Also, perhaps the many other Vulcans that yielded parts and documentation for the RTF phase of the project might also be able to finally get their parts back!
Going from my experience that is not likely, or they will charge the earth for them to maximise income for when they finally fold.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by NAM Updater »

ExVulcanGC wrote:
Tue 06 Sep 2022, 7:22 am
Going from my experience that is not likely, or they will charge the earth for them to maximise income for when they finally fold.
To be honest it was more in hope than expectation - previous attempts have been made over a number of years.

Their previous spare part sales have yielded a few items, but always at a price!

In particular NAM would be keen to secure their original APs back now that they own XM594!

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Blue_2 »

There's also the question of wheels and tyres owed to XL231 since at least 558's penultimate flying season...
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by tache3 »

NAM Updater wrote:
Tue 06 Sep 2022, 7:33 am
In particular NAM would be keen to secure their original APs back now that they own XM594!
Do you mean you loaned them some maintenance docs and they never bothered to return them? Seems very rude.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by NAM Updater »

tache3 wrote:
Tue 06 Sep 2022, 12:51 pm
Do you mean you loaned them some maintenance docs and they never bothered to return them? Seems very rude.
They needed original versions of the APs for the certification & the understanding at the time would be that the APs would be returned when the flying phase was completed!

Given the current aim of a one off flight I suppose there's an argument that they still need them, so perhaps all is not yet lost.

I almost forgot - a special thank you to a member of the Southend Vulcan Team for the XM594 donation this morning, your support is appreciated!
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by purple_95 »

It is now several weeks since news first broke that 558 has to be removed from Doncaster, given the limited timescale and the fact that whatever option is taken (unless and lets hope not the scrapman is already on notice) will need money to be raised and no update as of yet.

I know moving a Vulcan via road or getting approval for a ferry flight cannot just be sorted out in a week or so but some sort of update along the lines of the options being looked into and how this would work would not be a bad move, given the trust are still after donations and talking people funding the move.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.

This assuming, of course, that it hasn’t already been spent.


I still think you could buy a big triangle shaped plot of land next door to Doncaster airport ?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by K5054NZ »

purple_95 wrote:
Thu 08 Sep 2022, 2:47 pm
It is now several weeks since news first broke that 558 has to be removed from Doncaster[...] some sort of update
Have you asked VTST? I'm probably being naive but that's what I'd do if I wanted to know what the latest is.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by iainpeden »

Zac, you are definitely being naive with that suggestion. :wink:
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

iainpeden wrote:
Fri 09 Sep 2022, 6:56 am
Zac, you are definitely being naive with that suggestion. :wink:
Zac, you are definitely not being naive with that suggestion. it’s very sensible!

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by cg_341 »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Thu 08 Sep 2022, 4:33 pm
Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.
I've seen this £450k out of £500k left mentioned a few times but I've no idea where it comes from?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Mooshie1956 »

cg_341 wrote:
Fri 09 Sep 2022, 12:30 pm
DOUGHNUT wrote:
Thu 08 Sep 2022, 4:33 pm
Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.
I've seen this £450k out of £500k left mentioned a few times but I've no idea where it comes from?
I think it comes from the fact that the fundraiser for the hangar got cancelled and 90% of those donating said to keep the money. So they assume that equals 90% of the £500k that was raised. Unless it was a fixed donation that was asked for it could be any amount that was left.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by cg_341 »

Gotcha. Yes I think saying there's £450k left is optimistic at best!

If one person donated £450k and everyone else donated £10, then you might well end up with 90% of people saying yes keep the money and only have a few grand in the pot.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

Mooshie1956 wrote:
Fri 09 Sep 2022, 1:11 pm
cg_341 wrote:
Fri 09 Sep 2022, 12:30 pm
DOUGHNUT wrote:
Thu 08 Sep 2022, 4:33 pm
Given that they raised £500K, that does pro rata leave £450K with VTST, which is a decent sum to go towards moving XH558.
I've seen this £450k out of £500k left mentioned a few times but I've no idea where it comes from?
I think it comes from the fact that the fundraiser for the hangar got cancelled and 90% of those donating said to keep the money. So they assume that equals 90% of the £500k that was raised. Unless it was a fixed donation that was asked for it could be any amount that was left.
It was me. I stress it’s only a simple calculation on a pro rata basis i.e. it’s an estimate. It could be more than £450K, it could be less, especially if major donors have said they want their cash back.

The £500K and the 9/10 figure for donors who said VTST could keep the money come from VTST, though, so they’re definitive amounts. No estimates there.

Regardless of the exact amount, it’s still very likely to be a worthwhile sum, in the six figure bracket, not a bad outcome for a failed project.

The one positive is that it can be a good starting point in cash terms for any attempt to get 558 out of Doncaster, whether it be by ferry flight, road or lots of small parcels in the post. However, knowing VTST’s ability to spend money like it’s going out of fashion (salaries, redundancy payments, consultancy fees, publicity, etc. - and all for a single aircraft, static operation), I worry that not a lot of it will be left by the time the cash is needed to get the moving project underway and the inevitable appeal comes out.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

They have succeeded with step 1 in getting 558 and themselves back in the media, hinted at possible solutions to their predicament, if history is to be repeated step 2 will be the chosen solution and fund raising requirements will be published at the last moment to try and cause maximum angst amongst the devout followers to raise the required money for the move, wages, transport, insurance, pay any debts etc, etc, and step 3 as the deadline looms the pressure will ramp up and as the axe is just going to fall there will be a miraculous donation and all will be good again.

Whether any of that will include the Canberra I have no idea, maybe that is expected to be covered as part of the 558 fund raising process as they will ask for more than is needed for the 558 move.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

The VTST 2020-21 annual accounts are now on Companies House in case anyone fancies a bed-time read.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 5944 »

Am I reading this right? £1.13m a year in expenditure, and they still managed to lose £100k?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ericbee123 »

The biggest “killer” in the accounts is that the Vulcan is valued at £685,716 and the Canberra at £60,859.

If those turns into scrap value in a few months those accounts are scrap too!
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

ericbee123 wrote:
Sat 24 Sep 2022, 9:58 pm
The biggest “killer” in the accounts is that the Vulcan is valued at £685,716 and the Canberra at £60,859.

If those turns into scrap value in a few months those accounts are scrap too!
I think they’re very much paper values, they don’t have any particular relevance to the solvency of the operation.

The “killer” for me is the horrendous level of expenditure that delivers, with the exception of the educational stuff (which is quite limited IMO), little or no more than what the Wellesbourne and Southend groups do with only a fraction of VTST’s income.
Ken

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

The biggest problem as I see it is VTST themselves, yes they have been successful in the past with fundraising, but their methodology has alienated a lot of people who could have made the task easier and probably more sustainable than it has been historically, some of the possible solutions going forward will be untenable as they would not want to relinquish any control, or give power to make decisions on funding to anyone outside their group, and that attitude and intransigence lost them a lot of good will/funding/assistance over the years, just my humble opinion based on my personal association with them up until prior to the move to Doncaster.

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