XH558 News

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5944
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Re: XH558 News

Post by 5944 »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
Gt5500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:25 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Thu 03 Feb 2022, 7:07 pm
XH558 is just another Vulcan now, no different to XL426 or XM655 in that it is a jet that used to fly.
Indeed, it shares that fact with every other complete Vulcan left worldwide.
Well that's not strictly true is it? The big difference is 1000's of us saw XH558 flying and remember the displays fondly, so no, it's not just another Vulcan.
Of course I'm sensible enough to realise that fact alone is not enough to change the fate of XH558, only vts could have done that and so far they've not pulled it off...
I am however, fairly confident, that if it had gone to one of the fantastic aviation museums in the country it would have proved a big draw to visitors but that ship has sailed (and subsequently sunk for good measure)
I wholly agree with the view that 558 is definitely different in that it has a unique and unsurpassed place in aircraft history and the public’s affection. I don’t at all subscribe to the view that it is at any real risk of dismantling or worse. The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated and I feel sure the authorities/owners at Doncaster airport simply would not contemplate such an outcome. This Vulcan has had a habit of confounding the pessimists time and again which was wonderful to see and I see no real reason why this won’t happen again. While times are tough just now lets move forward with optimism!
Doncaster Airport is run by the Peel Group. They have form.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by tache3 »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated
Rubbish. Public hue and cry has very rarely made a difference. See the closure and development of former historic airfields and the recent changes at Bruntingthorpe, for example.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by pbeardmore »

One of the golden rules re fundraising is that if you set a target for a certain project, you need to have a very good estimate that it will be reached. It enables the organisation to celebrate success, donors can see the results and additional funds can be targeted at the next project. We are here seeing the results of when a target is not reached.

PS anyone know the repurcussions of when Lottery funding TandCs are breached?
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Re: XH558 News

Post by f4phixeruk »

tache3 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 11:18 am
106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated
Rubbish. Public hue and cry has very rarely made a difference. See the closure and development of former historic airfields and the recent changes at Bruntingthorpe, for example.
Public hue and cry ? 80% of the public have no idea what this aircraft is or has done. To a lot of them its just a museum piece, bit like the rest of aircraft in a museum anywhere. Aviation enthusiast may kick up a stink. But in these lean and green times a lot of folk really couldnt give a monkeys. The scrappys torch is beckoning
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Re: XH558 News

Post by bizfreeq »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
Gt5500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:25 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Thu 03 Feb 2022, 7:07 pm
XH558 is just another Vulcan now, no different to XL426 or XM655 in that it is a jet that used to fly.
Indeed, it shares that fact with every other complete Vulcan left worldwide.
Well that's not strictly true is it? The big difference is 1000's of us saw XH558 flying and remember the displays fondly, so no, it's not just another Vulcan.
Of course I'm sensible enough to realise that fact alone is not enough to change the fate of XH558, only vts could have done that and so far they've not pulled it off...
I am however, fairly confident, that if it had gone to one of the fantastic aviation museums in the country it would have proved a big draw to visitors but that ship has sailed (and subsequently sunk for good measure)
I wholly agree with the view that 558 is definitely different in that it has a unique and unsurpassed place in aircraft history and the public’s affection. I don’t at all subscribe to the view that it is at any real risk of dismantling or worse. The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated and I feel sure the authorities/owners at Doncaster airport simply would not contemplate such an outcome. This Vulcan has had a habit of confounding the pessimists time and again which was wonderful to see and I see no real reason why this won’t happen again. While times are tough just now lets move forward with optimism!
If there was that much public support for this aircraft as you seem to allude to then surely it's fate wouldn't be as it is now and would be long saved and under cover. I would go out on limb to go as far as to say that the public by and large have long since forgotten 558 and would not even notice it should the scrapping take place. It has been held aloft by enthusiasts and a few die hard members of the public as this almost mythical aircraft but in truth has, since the grounding, pretty much slipped into obscurity and long forgotten by the many.
I certainly hope there is a future for 558 in some form, hopefully taxiable, but it will take the public conscience to be awakened once more for that to happen and I fear that the chance of this is long past. Best scenario, dismantled and moved to a willing and cash fluid museum as a whole aircraft, is what I would like to see but, at the end of the day, I am a realist so I am ready to accept that that is, currently anyway, quite unlikely given the current financial state of the possible contenders.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by capercaillie »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
Gt5500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:25 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Thu 03 Feb 2022, 7:07 pm
XH558 is just another Vulcan now, no different to XL426 or XM655 in that it is a jet that used to fly.
Indeed, it shares that fact with every other complete Vulcan left worldwide.
Well that's not strictly true is it? The big difference is 1000's of us saw XH558 flying and remember the displays fondly, so no, it's not just another Vulcan.
Of course I'm sensible enough to realise that fact alone is not enough to change the fate of XH558, only vts could have done that and so far they've not pulled it off...
I am however, fairly confident, that if it had gone to one of the fantastic aviation museums in the country it would have proved a big draw to visitors but that ship has sailed (and subsequently sunk for good measure)
I wholly agree with the view that 558 is definitely different in that it has a unique and unsurpassed place in aircraft history and the public’s affection. I don’t at all subscribe to the view that it is at any real risk of dismantling or worse. The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated and I feel sure the authorities/owners at Doncaster airport simply would not contemplate such an outcome. This Vulcan has had a habit of confounding the pessimists time and again which was wonderful to see and I see no real reason why this won’t happen again. While times are tough just now lets move forward with optimism!
It definitely is different in the fact that its missing lots of parts and painted in the wrong colours to accurately represent an in service Vulcan for museum display purposes.

That said its an utter shambles that it is where it is now and even worse they have a significantly important historic Canberra stuck there as well.
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Re: XH558 News

Post by TYPHOON3 »

Most of us knew this would happen, just a matter of when. I suppose there is no way it could be flown out now after all this time ? A very sad day and an even worse day to come when it's chopped up and put into skips. Some of the parts could be used for the other 2 Vulcans hopefully.
Last edited by TYPHOON3 on Fri 04 Feb 2022, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Mike »

TYPHOON3 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 3:45 pm
I suppose there is no way it could be flown out now after all this time ?
None whatsoever.

My money’s on the Trust being wound up eventually, and the Vulcan ending up at St Athan, along with the Canberra, in due course

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Re: XH558 News

Post by 106500 »

Despite some of the views expressed here, I still feel VTTS made the right call for Doncaster to be the final location for 558. I’m sure most here recall the clamour for the airframe to be relocated to Bruntingthorpe once it’s flying days were over and most of us know now what a poor decision that would have been (Robert Pleming was absolutely right!). Hindsight is always an exact science and I guess it’s easy to criticise now. Let’s see what the next few months/years brings along but why not be optimistic? XH558 has never ceased to surprise us in the past, good and bad (mainly good in most peoples opinion I’m sure) and I don’t see why that trend shouldn’t continue!

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Re: XH558 News

Post by centaurus18 »

Gt5500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:25 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Thu 03 Feb 2022, 7:07 pm
XH558 is just another Vulcan now, no different to XL426 or XM655 in that it is a jet that used to fly.
Indeed, it shares that fact with every other complete Vulcan left worldwide.
Well that's not strictly true is it? The big difference is 1000's of us saw XH558 flying and remember the displays fondly, so no, it's not just another Vulcan.
Sadly 99% of those people would point at any vulcan and say "I saw one of these fly xx years ago".
Sadly XH558 has no real historical significance that sets it apart from others from a public perspective.
The last Vulcan to fly yes, but like all the others, it won't ever fly again.

It won't ever move from Doncaster now either, unless it departs in bits in the back of a lorry.
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Re: XH558 News

Post by GeeRam »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 4:28 pm
Despite some of the views expressed here, I still feel VTTS made the right call for Doncaster to be the final location for 558. I’m sure most here recall the clamour for the airframe to be relocated to Bruntingthorpe once it’s flying days were over and most of us know now what a poor decision that would have been (Robert Pleming was absolutely right!).
I always thought Elvington would have been the best call, as I always felt that VTS wouldn't survive long after it's last flight (lasted longer than I thought it would already) and therefore it was going to need to be 'taken over' in terms of being looked after by a bunch of volunteers, and that was never going to happen at Doncaster due to the nature of the place, and thus Elvington was always going to be the best long term solution....imho.

All academic once it landed for the last time back at Doncaster.

Before it flew against post restoration, the VTS/HLF docs etc, stated that it would be retired to Duxford......was there any reason given as to why that didn't happen, although, with the changes that have taken place at IWM with the woke culture that the new management has there, it's just as well it didn't go there either. I never thought that was viable even before it flew again.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by NAM Updater »

centaurus18 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 4:46 pm
Gt5500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:25 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Thu 03 Feb 2022, 7:07 pm
XH558 is just another Vulcan now, no different to XL426 or XM655 in that it is a jet that used to fly.
Indeed, it shares that fact with every other complete Vulcan left worldwide.
Well that's not strictly true is it? The big difference is 1000's of us saw XH558 flying and remember the displays fondly, so no, it's not just another Vulcan.
Sadly 99% of those people would point at any vulcan and say "I saw one of these fly xx years ago".
Sadly XH558 has no real historical significance that sets it apart from others from a public perspective.....
Plus one - virtually every new visitor I speak to about XM594 at Newark, asks if it was the Vulcan that they saw flying a few years ago!

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Re: XH558 News

Post by 106500 »

f4phixeruk wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 2:38 pm
tache3 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 11:18 am
106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:57 am
The public hue and cry and political fallout could not be underestimated
Rubbish. Public hue and cry has very rarely made a difference. See the closure and development of former historic airfields and the recent changes at Bruntingthorpe, for example.
Public hue and cry ? 80% of the public have no idea what this aircraft is or has done. To a lot of them its just a museum piece, bit like the rest of aircraft in a museum anywhere. Aviation enthusiast may kick up a stink. But in these lean and green times a lot of folk really couldnt give a monkeys. The scrappys torch is beckoning
Well, I beg to differ. If you recall, the return to flight and on later occasions, the Daily Mail for example covered the topic in some depth and celebrated the resurrection of a “Cold War warrior’ as something of a ‘cause celebre’.
I reckon that if the scrap man threatened, what better a story to be championed by a Conservative supporting newspaper (and probably others) as a ‘push back’ to the ‘woke’ heathens looking to destroy our heritage! Many many members of the public saw 558 display and, ok it was some years ago but it might be just a touch disingenuous to suggest this particular Vulcan is all but forgotten.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Unknown74 »

Very sad...................

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Re: XH558 News

Post by boff180 »

I honestly don't think she will fly again, even for a ferry flight - the aircraft has now been on the ground too long and the costs to confirm airworthiness together with support from other companies will be too high.

Also, with ground transport - forgive me if I'm wrong - but you can't ground transport a Vulcan without heavily maiming it, the wings aren't designed to come off.

Sadly there are only two viable options.

a) A permanent solution at its current location.
or
b) The scrapman.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Pen Pusher »

boff180 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 11:51 pm
but you can't ground transport a Vulcan without heavily maiming it, the wings aren't designed to come off.
The wings were designed to come off.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Pen Pusher »

boff180 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 11:51 pm
but you can't ground transport a Vulcan without heavily maiming it, the wings aren't designed to come off.
If the wings were designed not to come off, how did they get XL318 into Hendon?.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by boff180 »

According to Thunder & Lightnings history of the airframe… the wings on XL318 were cut off.

Which goes with the comment regarding maiming the airframe.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by andygolfer »

not sure what the exact circumstances were but this is an old photo I've seen many times of a road running Vulcan, I assume it was being moved prior to assembly and flight but happy to be corrected.
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/439452876114468711/

Of course if there were a need to cut the wings then it would depend if it were to be moved with the intention of future ground running or not. If not then a careful cut can be made such as was done with Concorde G-BOAA for transporting to East Fortune (or G-BBDG from Filton to Brooklands) - both were re-assembled with a lot of care and look excellent.

Even at the height of it's popularity during the flying years there was always a last minute scramble for funds with a prediction of doom if we the public didn't dig deep so with that popularity on the wane and still dropping then financing a major project was always going to be a very steep uphill task. VTST needed to have those funds in place before committing to a permanent home at Doncaster, personally I feel a non-commercial site with an existing museum would have been ideal but there are precious few about unless you consider an RAF base with a museum such as Yeovilton for instance, or Scampton although plans there have changed rapidly, something that cannot always be foreseen.
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Re: XH558 News

Post by tache3 »

106500 wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 9:52 pm
...a ‘push back’ to the ‘woke’ heathens looking to destroy our heritage
I think you'll probably find that it is not that demographic that is the source of 558's problems.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by pbeardmore »

it's all hindsight now (although the were big doubts at the time) but piggy backing onto an existing site/charity was an obvious option rather than build complete infrastructure from the ground up. (The bus museum at Brooklands is a good example? or concorde at Yeovilton) The airframe has now gone from asset to liabilty. The trustees should have seen this coming IMHO - they went for a "sh*t or bust" strategy which is high risk considering that bust is the scrapman, especially when anyone can see via the charity commision site : How the charity spends it's money "To preserve Avro Vulcan XH558"

PS I remember a couple of years ago they put a mad price on the value of the airframe (via the annual accounts). If it goes to scrap value, then the charity have to take resonsibilty for that loss.

Charity trustees must comply with a number of duties, the six main duties being:

To ensure the charity is carrying out its purpose for the public benefit;
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To act in the charity’s best interests;
To manage the charity’s resources responsibly;
To act with reasonable care and skill; and
To ensure the charity is accountable.

If charity trustees fail to meet their obligations and they have either acted dishonestly and/or unreasonably, they can be held personally liable and required to compensate their charity for any financial loss caused.
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Ken Shabby »

pbeardmore wrote:
Fri 04 Feb 2022, 12:55 pm
One of the golden rules re fundraising is that if you set a target for a certain project, you need to have a very good estimate that it will be reached. It enables the organisation to celebrate success, donors can see the results and additional funds can be targeted at the next project. We are here seeing the results of when a target is not reached.

PS anyone know the repurcussions of when Lottery funding TandCs are breached?
In reply to the PS, I work in the Lottery grants ‘sphere’ … not for the Heritage Lottery Fund, though.

The most obvious remedy is to require repayment of all or some of the grant. If it chose to go down this route, HLF would, I think, recognise it’s got good value for money from its investment by virtue of the public being able to see XH558 fly for several years and would not require full repayment.

HLF would also I’m sure be conscious that if it does ask for all or some of its grant back (assuming VTTS has the cash to repay it, of course), it would likely be scuppering any chance VTTS has of preserving XH558 for the future, under cover or indoors. There would be an element of the HLF biting it nose off to spite its face in that scenario.

Another route might be for the HLF to ask VTTS to apply for a grant to build the visitor centre and give it more money. That might sound daft, but HLF could see it as a way of protecting the £2.7 million investment it’s already made. It might suggest VTTS looks at other, perhaps cheaper, options to put XH558 under cover and achieve its educational aims.

In this scenario, and given what’s already happened, I would imagine HLF would want to be pretty darn sure the visitor centre/hangar is sustainable. It would want to see a very robust business case, not just for the build, but for it as on ongoing faculty that will pay for itself. HLF certainly wouldn’t want to be in the position of having to rescue the project for a second time. ‘Build it and they will come’ is not a mantra most grant givers subscribe to.

Whether or not the HLF has the right to repossess XH558 I don’t know. Personally I doubt it, as a public body of that nature might not have the powers to own property. It probably wouldn’t want to anyway. It wouldn’t have the wherewithal to care for the aircraft and would immediately have to find a body that does. And pay them to do so until another custodian can be found.

HLF may have a half-way house option, exercising any powers its contract with VTTS gives it to work with VTTS to find a way of protecting its investment whilst ensuring XH558 has some sort of future. It could, perhaps, release VTTS from the obligation that I believe exists to keep XH558 under cover. This might be in return for assurance from VTTS that it will provide public access to the aircraft even though it’s outdoors.

There is always risk in grant making. You effectively enter into a partnership with the applicant and have to accept they may make mistakes and that the environment affecting the applicant can change. What’s perfectly plausible and achievable when you give the grant may be next to impossible 10 or 20 years down the line. Obligating VTTS to fly XH558 for a period and then keep it under cover and publicly accessible for 80 years was a big ask and a risk, especially when HLF would have know all its grant would have been eaten up restoring the aircraft at the very start.

Of course, HLF could have seen it as too big a risk and not given a grant, in which case we wouldn’t have had the pleasure of seeing XH558 return to the sky and thrill us at airshows. In my opinion, the grant gave very good value for money by doing just that - anything that happened afterwards was always going to be a bonus in my mind.
Ken

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Re: XH558 News

Post by GeeRam »

boff180 wrote:
Sat 05 Feb 2022, 7:36 am
According to Thunder & Lightnings history of the airframe… the wings on XL318 were cut off.
I'm not sure that's correct.
I'm pretty sure the wings were not cut, as seen in the photo posted already of it in bits in the hanger, and I'm sure on an old pprune thread on the subject many years ago, one of the posters was from the crash n smash team that did the work, and confirmed that.
However, they did cut through a lot of the systems, and many years ago, I can remember standing under it at RAFM and looking up into the bomb bay, and you could see where at lot of the bomb bay wiring loom, and hydraulics had been sawn through.
The problem from my memory of that thread, was they weren't concerned with it ever running again (engines had already been removed) and to dismantle the same way, with a view to it being a taxiable runner again, would be therefore quite an undertaking.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Binbrook 01 »

The RAF crash and smash teams dismantled the Vulcan Lightning Phantom and Valiant. As per manufacturers build plans as far as I was aware.

Dad certainly got a surprise one morning driving in Lincoln city centre when the nose section past him....

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Binbrook 01 »

That was in early 1982...

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