Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Discussions regarding historic aircraft, restoration and preservation etc
Post Reply
User avatar
HeyfordDave111
Posts: 1265
Joined: Sat 21 Feb 2015, 5:30 pm
Location: In my minds eye, Greenham Common for 'that' show.

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

I cannot understand how this has come to pass.

If you own the aircraft, and have papers of ownership etc its yours, no one else's.

If you have questions about monies that are donated for YOUR aircraft, they are yours, no one else's, and if they are misappropriated, then you have recourse to take action.

If you have lumped yourself with a crew who think they are in fact the boss, you need to sack everyone of them.

If you don't have access too, or exclusive access to, your own web site, you can and should do something about that too.
Like i said i don't understand, but i'm sure the answers are out there somewhere.

Speaking as someone who wants her back in the air and is fed up of 'he said' / 'she said' and 'its mine' / 'no it's mine' that is prevailing.

Sort it out, and get it going!
You are master of your own, and the aircraft's destiny if you have ownership papers. If you don't have them, then this post is moot!
Got to love Russianhardware

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Brevet Cable »

Domvickery wrote:https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10598129

Click on filing history then accounts & you can see it as a PDF

:up:
Had a quick scan through them last night & now had a proper read.
The only difference from accounts I've seen from other organisations are the number of resignations, and even then I've seen similar when there's been factional in-fighting.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

Hi all.

There is an issue, and its one of Dad's (Dave Woods) own making. He's wanting 'his' toy back if the Shackleton Aviation Group CIC don't play by his rules - despite not being in charge of things any more. He sold the aircraft to the CIC in Feb 2017, and handed more or less everything over to new Directors in Aug 2018. Shortly after that when they wanted access to the bank account and records, he pulled one of his now infamous changes of mind and tried ordering everone off 'his' aeroplane. Dom Vickery - you know very well how he likes to do this.

Unfortunately for him this time, you can't just demand stuff back you sold and when you annoy Directors with equal standing in your CIC, you find yourself getting chucked out - especially when you have a track record of teddy chucking if you don't get your way. This is whats happened, and why he's getting a bit mad. He's been told to take it to court or shut up.. but he's taken option C, which is get on Facebook and claim we're all being illegal in carrying on working on the aircraft, purely as he said not to. (its not illegal, as he's not in any way an authority).

Expect a few rantings and accusations which will eventually tail off when he gets bored.

Work is continuing.

To answer some of HeyfordDave111's points -

1. The CIC have a signed and dated sale document, and various other paperwork to support ownership by the CIC.

2. Several of us have our own questions about monies donated during Dave Woods period of 'looking after' the bank account. We will find out one way or another where ALL of it is/went.

3. The crew don't think they are boss, the self appointed ex-boss thinks he still is. Companies House and majority votes at Directors meetings say he isn't.

4. The CIC still have the website and Facebook pages running quite happily. Dave deleted one Facebook page that he had admin rights to, but its no great loss as it was effectively a mirror. Now he's trying to troll what he couldn't delete.

5. Why do you think WR963 is still being worked on? If we all gave up just because someone thinks wielding authority is stating 'because I say so', nothing would get done.

Regards,

Rich
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

User avatar
HeyfordDave111
Posts: 1265
Joined: Sat 21 Feb 2015, 5:30 pm
Location: In my minds eye, Greenham Common for 'that' show.

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Hi Richard,

Great answers, and thanks for clarifying.
cheers
Dave
Got to love Russianhardware

Domvickery
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1984
Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:57 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Domvickery »

[fb-post] https://www.facebook.com/16460105489606 ... =n&sfns=mo[/fb-post]

A shame, I met John during my time volunteering & was very keen to speak to the newer people in the team
Free straws available to clutch at - PM me. Inventor of the baguette scale

User avatar
K5054NZ
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat 17 Nov 2012, 2:23 am
Location: Whanganui, NZ

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by K5054NZ »

Just yesterday I was wondering what the latest news with '963 was, I'm sorry to learn of John's passing. My best wishes to his family and the team.
Regards, Zac Yates

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

Hi all.

We received the sad news about John over the weekend; his passing has left a huge hole in our ranks. We lost a leader, a mentor, a friend.. and someone who had an almost inexhaustible wealth of knowledge about the Shackleton and what makes her tick. A short while ago we were hoping to get John to one of the run ups; we had invited everybody back as part of efforts to rid the project of any ill feeling within old/new members. By then he was rather too ill to make it up to join us.

This year has been a rough one, we hope next year will be better. There's been various things happening recently though such as the acquisition of a Saunders Roe Mk 3 Airborne Lifeboat and the collection of a large quantity of undercarriage spares from East Kirkby.

WR963 will growl again in 2020.

Regards,

Rich
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

Hi all.

Quite a while ago, I used to update this thread, and it seems I haven't done much of it over the last year; something I feel needs to change. So here goes... a bit of a 2019 round up, and a 2020 forecast of sorts!

WR963 entered 2019 with the same maladies she'd been suffering for a while. A pneumatic leak, continuing hydraulic issue, an intercom problem, a VHF stuck on transmit and a few engine issues.

Starting at the top, we hit the pneumatic leak first. No pneumatics means no brakes, and no running engines as she is quite capable of over-running chocks. The leak was traced to a pressure reducing valve in the plumbers nightmare that is the pneumatic crate. The crate hold four bottles for storage - two for the port side, two for starboard with pressure being reduced and shared as required to engine services.

Here's the diagram in the manual -

Image

And this is what trying to get to the swine looks like in real life. The pipes don't let the crate move much, and typically the offending pressure reducing valve is underneath. Used in many wartime and early Cold War aircraft its a fairly plentiful - albeit expensive - part to replace.

Image

Image

Once the new item was in and wirelocked, Nitrogen was introduced into the system through the charging points in the undercarriage bays to test the new unit and pipe joints. Pressure held, and happily was still evident in the system well after the prescribed 24hrs.

Next up was the VHF and Intercom issue. The intercom suffers from horrific feedback, at least one amplifier is dead, and the VHF has developed a fault where a false earth is triggering it to transmit.

So, head into the books to find out how things shoud be. Wiring for the intercom and VHF system is fairly complex as they are integrated to work together or separately depending on what you want each station to do. Annoyingly Shackleton MR2 Phase 3, MR3 Phase 3 and AEW2 are all slightly different and due to in service and out of service modifications WR963 is a mix of all three.

Image

Image

Hidden away on the port fuselage side wall between the spars is this control unit. It carries both communication channels in the aircraft and feeds signals from each station on those channels to the selected radios. Thankfully this was found to be working - as a fault in here could have taken a lot of work to find and fix, but something was triggering the transmit relay in this unit for the VHF. So the fault is further up.

After checking all the 'Push to talk' buttons, and the main junction box, it became more obvious that another junction box could be falsely triggering the radio to transmit. There are two separate boxes for each station, one for intercom, one for radios, so removing each of those for radio in turn would find the faulty one by process of elimination.

They are not easy to get to however. Access is somewhat limited.

These two are underneath the pilots floor. The pushrod, and chains are elevator and aileron controls off the pilots control column and yoke. The junction boxes we are looking for are just above the yellow wires in the centre of shot.

Image

It eventually turned out to be a dud control box (Type 7683) between the 'Push to Talk' button and the main control unit on one of the beam radar operator stations. Once that station was disconnected from the main feeder cable for the radio it all behaved as it should, and WR963 no longer shouts out to the world unless asked. It was a long day finding it all though - 32 junction boxes and 128 plugs all in.

Another wiring task carried out was the fuel crossfeed system. Working crossfeeds mean we can better manage and balance the fuel allowing more running time on what we have in the tanks. The centre crossfeed had a new actuator fitted and the outers needed rewiring. First task was to get into the fuse panel, and see what's alive (or not).

Image

Then with some volunteers from our friends at 121 Sqn Air Training Corps, and some of our team each of the crrossfeeds were checked visually for operation. While found to be working, there was no indication on the Flight Engineers panel. Undoing a few dzus fasteners and it folds down for access. I'm not going to say easy as with all those switches and indicators so close to each other not only is it an exercise in neat cable runs, its also difficult to get to screws and securing nuts.

Image

Typically the one we want is middle, bottom. The indicators are secured by a sprung clip on the rear part, which has to be turned to lock in. The wiring then has small brass screw terminals which are rendered amost impossible to get to due to the aforementioned clip.

With patience, a cup of tea, and a few choice words spoken the replacement indicator was fitted and satisfactorily tested for operation, the wiring just needing to be finished off and neatened up with new tags.

Image

The last big niggle to sort was a magneto points issue on No 3 engine. This was a bit of an own goal for me, as I'd cocked up the points gap when replacing a worn set - resulting in a big mag drop and some spectacular misfiring. A fiddly but necessary adjustment was all that was required.

So now we find ourselves in April and it was time to get WR963 woken up proper.

Image

A little grumpy (the aeroplane... not me!) but by and large okay. We changed things around this time to start the engines and then let a couple of visitors on board after seeing the start from outside. One of whom was none other than TV/film star Chris Barrie.. and he was more than happy to have a seat up front for a few minutes and under instruction give the Griffons some exercise, and even posed for a quick photo with me and Sam T.

Image

But... we still had issues. The intercom was still misbehaving, and we had got fed up of it.

We set about a program of replacing the old RAF G-type helmets and masks with modern headsets and boom microphones, as the clarity of communication with them is so much better. The old helmets were starting to suffer from age and wiring deterioration but we have retained them for use with re-enactors or for visitors that want to try one on.

The various intercom leads are getting replaced with modern equivalents; again with better quality new wiring - and so far we've not had any issues since.

Image

Oil leaks.. yes, I know. We only go after the bigger ones, as if it wasn't leaking from somewhere we would be worried it was empty! However, after a few more became apparent we knew something was amiss, and it was traced to blocked collector boxes. Each engine has a small breather catch tank and solidified deposits in the gauze inside was increasing crankcase pressure and it was finding every possible avenue out of the big Griffon.

Off with all the cowlings to get everything clean...

Image

The Cadets being particularly keen to have a look at the Griffon close up!

Image

Here's one of the collector boxes in situ -

Image

And here's the problem.

Image

All four tanks were taken off and cleaned thoroughly in a parts wash, before refitting. We're glad to report oil leakage, and consumption has now dropped quite a bit.

After a chat wth our friends at East Kirkby, we had a brief outing to collect a pallet of undercarriage spares. On arriving at teh home of 'Just Jane', we were surprised to find one pallet had become three, and it was almost a full set of undercarriage legs and retract struts. We can't thank them enough for those - parts like these are rare. This little lot seen here is now getting catalogued, inspected and will form the basis of new serviceable legs for WR963; we'll finally get oleos that don't sink!

Image

Overall, in 2019 we ran roughly once a month before bringing things to a halt in October. The last few runs we managed to get some old friends back to see us, and to sit up front and enjoy it. There's still a few that are due their turn on the loud levers and have been more than patient. We even let this forums favourite Meteor fettler have a go, and I've honestly never seen him smile so much, even though we had a starter motor failure. :lol:

So now we end... We had already taken the decision to sit out the bad weather and start engine runs in April 2020, but when we lost John at the end of Novemeber it really took the wind out of our sails and its only been the last week or so everyone has started to come back from that. We had to take a good long look at what we were doing and what we wanted to do this year.

The answer? As much as possible.

Engine runs start on 4th April with a daytime run and a later one at dusk with Threshold Aero. We'll be taking Zebedee to Cosford, and the stall around as many other shows as we can handle. We'll be trying to engage more on here, on Facebook and get a bit of decent video up for you, so you don't just have to look at the photos, you can see what we're doing and how and why. The website will be getting more on it, we're digitising manuals and other documents to try and make as much Shackleton info available to as many people as possible.

But the big push is to go taxying again, we're aiming for it to be May; but as ever its funding dependant. The big step in insurance cover, fuel burn, and other factors such as making WR963 talk on 8.33mhz don't come for free. We still need your help.

So if you're looking for something to do come see us on Apr 4th, and help make 2020 a good year for the old Shackleton. :)


Rich
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

User avatar
hunterxf382
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:36 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by hunterxf382 »

Wow Rich, that's quite a comprehensive update indeed! Although I've been keeping an eye on what's happened on facebook etc, it's good to read the overall progress in one hit too...
It was certainly an interesting turn around for 963 and your team in 2019, and it was certainly an emotional return for some of us including myself - being able to see and hear the old girl again, and renew our friendships with you and your current team too!
Note has been made of that first run date, so you'll hopefully see me there again!

I'm sure many will be rather happy to see things have settled down on 963 and she will continue to impress those that witness that infamous "Griffon Growl"....

Onwards and upwards as they say :)
Pete Buckingham
Volunteer in Aviation
Former RAF Engineer
http://hunterxf382.weebly.com/

TEXANTOMCAT
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat 09 Aug 2014, 5:40 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by TEXANTOMCAT »

Great update, thanks for sharing - all good wishes to you and the team for 2020!

TT

User avatar
Blue_2
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu 13 Jan 2011, 10:29 am

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Blue_2 »

richw_82 wrote: We even let this forums favourite Meteor fettler have a go, and I've honestly never seen him smile so much, even though we had a starter motor failure. :lol:



Yes, me smiling has been known to happen!
Image
looking forward to having another go in this seat on April 4th...
Meteor WS788 Restoration Project, Yorkshire Air Museum

User avatar
K5054NZ
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat 17 Nov 2012, 2:23 am
Location: Whanganui, NZ

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by K5054NZ »

It's great to see updates on this project. I've been following for several years and am excited to see what the new year brings!
Regards, Zac Yates

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

hunterxf382 -

I look forward to seeing you! It should be a good day, what with day and dusk runs within a few hours of each other. We have a few more things planned, but taxying 963 is the big goal. Yesterday marks two years since the last time she went up teh perimeter track.

Blue_2 -

I'm counting on you handling those throttles like a veteran, now you've got your hand in!

TT -

Thanks for the good wishes!

K5054NZ -

Glad I could get an update together for you all.


In related news, we've pinned down the identity of our Saunders Roe Airborne Lifeboat, it is boat number 836. The RAF Museum has a full set of manuals, so once they arrive its going to get some tlc and rebuilding, and it will serve nicely as a training exercise in airframe repair and reskinning, Why? Well, we still have the bomb bay doors to sort on WR963. We have more or less a full kit of parts now, so we'll be hopefully getting on with those this year.
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

Unknown74
Posts: 2414
Joined: Thu 23 Jul 2009, 12:55 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Unknown74 »

I have recently come across a possible piece of wonderfully interesting information surrounding WR963, I have reason to believe that WR963 used to be an AEW and stationed with 8 Sqdn at Lossie, now I once had a trip organised by a family friend to Lossie and one of the stops was to visit 8 Sqdn, and I do believe subject to confirmation that the Shackleton that we boarded happened to be WR963 judging by my photos which I will have another look at to confirm - once I have sorted the rest of my photos out. - There was to be one small piece of sadness surrounding that trip as we learned soon afterwards that the Pilot who showed us round was one of the crew who lost their lives in the sad incident over Harris shortly afterwards.

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

Hi unknown74

WR963 was/mostly still is an AEW2. We're slowly deleting the modifications to put her back to her previous MR2 condition. If you've photos we'd love to see them!

Rich
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

DOUGHNUT
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat 21 Mar 2009, 2:49 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Please provide more details, or web link, to the events on 4th April


ZRX61
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:35 pm
Location: Aerospace Valley, SoCal

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by ZRX61 »

Regarding "Each engine has a small breather catch tank and solidified deposits in the gauze inside was increasing crankcase pressure"

Regular paint stripper dissolves this clag & leaves the parts looking rather spiffy after a day or three (or week) soak. In fact it works on any solidified hydrocarbon clag & leaves things like knackered old pistons ready for polishing before they go on the mantle at home etc. Removes oil staining from engine parts.

Obviously oven cleaner will also do the same thing.... but isn't kind to aluminum, so only use that on Stainless/Inconel parts.

There's a product sold in the US called Carbon Off. It's for use in the restaurant trade for cleaning pots & pans etc. Smells EXACTLY like paint stripper, does a great job on the stainless dishpans behind radial engines on T6's etc :) Within weeks of discovering this stuff it was promptly banned for sale here in California :wall: . That's when I started using paint stripper instead. I think they later reversed the ban though, now they've banned paint stripper.

Alanko
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:24 am

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Alanko »

Blue_2 wrote:
richw_82 wrote: We even let this forums favourite Meteor fettler have a go, and I've honestly never seen him smile so much, even though we had a starter motor failure. :lol:



Yes, me smiling has been known to happen!
Image
looking forward to having another go in this seat on April 4th...


Beyond your slightly expensive, and Walt-tastic, game of dressing up has this thing flown yet? Is this project still deep in fantasy land? Can I get my donation back? :hypno:

Domvickery
UKAR Staff
Posts: 1984
Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:57 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Domvickery »

Whilst I get your frustration having been there, can we not have this going round in annual circles.

I'd ask you to PM Rich instead please, you can have a much franker conversation there
Free straws available to clutch at - PM me. Inventor of the baguette scale

User avatar
Blue_2
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu 13 Jan 2011, 10:29 am

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Blue_2 »

Alanko, any need for the personal remarks directed at me as the "hired help" on this aircraft?
Regarding your "Walt" comment the coveralls are the ones I use every weekend while spannering on whichever aircraft I happen to be giving my time freely to, and I'd struggle to hear over the row of the Griffons without the hat.
With people with your attitude in this scene, I wonder sometimes why I bother putting so much of my limited free time, effort and money into it. See the Meteor 788 thread, my main project, for details.
I suppose aircraft preservation is easier from behind a keyboard than it is in a cold draughty hangar in Yorkshire, or on a windswept airfield in the Midlands...
Meteor WS788 Restoration Project, Yorkshire Air Museum

User avatar
richw_82
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by richw_82 »

Alanko wrote:
Beyond your slightly expensive, and Walt-tastic, game of dressing up has this thing flown yet? Is this project still deep in fantasy land? Can I get my donation back? :hypno:


Hi Alanko -

Its not walt-tastic at all, if you check in CAA regs (CAP 632, Operation of 'Permit to Fly' Ex-Military Aircraft on the UK Register) they recommend adequate clothing when operating an aircraft; such as coveralls, stout boots, gloves etc. The headset is one of several functioning and working items that allowed Blue_2 to communicate with the rest of the crew, the outside man, and the airport fire service/tower had it been required.

So all necessary equipment. If you want to come take a turn - it'll cost you a day or two on the spanners - you'll be asked to wear similar.

Expensive? It depends. Roughly £1600 was raised on the day, £400 went on fuel, leaving enough to sort the bills over winter nicely, and a little bit to use on things like paying engineers, and overhauling parts. This time round its a pair of compressors, two new fuel tank cock actuators, a feathering pump and some sundry items.

Has it flown yet? Do you really think it would escape the cover of Flypast/Aeroplane Monthly if it had!?

Anyone that reads the FB page, or old updates knows there's no time limit set to do this as it just disappoints people. If funds keep at the level they are, it could be a decade or more. If one of us drops the Euromillions next week, it'll be at Legends (there's the real fantasy...).

'Donation' (noun)

"the act by which the owner of a thing voluntarily transfers the title and possession of the same from himself to another person, without any consideration; a gift.."

So in other words... no, you shouldn't. If you want it back, it wasn't really a donation to start with was it?

Provide details to me and if it came to us in the last year I'll get on with a re-imbursement, and you can happily wander off with your dosh to watch cat videos or something similarly fun. If it was in the deep dark depths of SPT, you'll have a harder time, as even we're struggling to get money back from there and its someone else you need to try and reason with. Good luck with that..

Here's an idea for you though. Rather than you just keep trying to ruin updates on here for the people that want them and chucking insults at me, my team and friends; come over on Apr 4th. Talk to me and I'll explain what we've faced and what a mountain we have still to climb. Worst case scenario, you go away still fed up but having seen a live running Shackleton.

Your call.

Regards,

Rich
Richard Woods
Team leader Avro Shackleton WR963
2009 - 2016
2019 -
http://www.facebook.com/avro.shackleton

ZRX61
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:35 pm
Location: Aerospace Valley, SoCal

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by ZRX61 »

Blue_2 wrote:I suppose aircraft preservation is easier from behind a keyboard than it is in a cold draughty hangar in Yorkshire, or on a windswept airfield in the Midlands...


It's not exactly a walk in the park on a windswept airfield in a drafty hangar in the Mojave Desert either when it's 117deg outside either.

altho I'll take it over freezing my ass off & getting rained on :)

User avatar
Blue_2
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu 13 Jan 2011, 10:29 am

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by Blue_2 »

I feel you have the lightly less raw (literally) end of the deal ZRX! I couldn't get out of town to go to 788 today as all routes out were impassable to cars due to flooding, thanks to overnight rain... :wat:
Meteor WS788 Restoration Project, Yorkshire Air Museum

ZRX61
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:35 pm
Location: Aerospace Valley, SoCal

Re: Shackleton WR963 - [Official Topic]

Post by ZRX61 »

I saw some pics, looks a bit damp & I hear it was quite blowy :)

Post Reply