Bruntingthorpe Closure?

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CJS
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by CJS »

Domvickery wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020, 7:25 pm
The VC10 group want £480k to dismantle & rebuild in a taxiable condition

https://www.gofundme.com/f/vc10-rescue- ... f9zDRwtFw0
I wish them luck, but to give themselves 60 days (maybe that's all they can allow,I don't know) to raise at least £300k - especially in the current climate - seems like a massive, massive ask. Maybe someone with extremely deep pockets might come along.
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Pat Murphy
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Pat Murphy »

CJS wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 6:55 am
Domvickery wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020, 7:25 pm
The VC10 group want £480k to dismantle & rebuild in a taxiable condition

https://www.gofundme.com/f/vc10-rescue- ... f9zDRwtFw0
I wish them luck, but to give themselves 60 days (maybe that's all they can allow,I don't know) to raise at least £300k - especially in the current climate - seems like a massive, massive ask. Maybe someone with extremely deep pockets might come along.
I know maybe someone should ask Sir Richard Bra...............Aah wait, we've been here before haven't we :rolling_eyes:
As for the £480K needed? Look I'm aviation through and through, but that's a thick wedge needed to save an airliner. If it was the last one full stop, then understandable, but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60 and although it's future may be under threat, isn't their another taxiable Funbus at Dunsfold? Probably get "Burn The Heretic" thrown at me for this but if £480K is to be raised, unlikely IMO, surely the Lightnings at the other end of the field would be a better option to save?

XP282
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by XP282 »

Pat Murphy wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 7:35 am
CJS wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 6:55 am
Domvickery wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020, 7:25 pm
The VC10 group want £480k to dismantle & rebuild in a taxiable condition

https://www.gofundme.com/f/vc10-rescue- ... f9zDRwtFw0
I wish them luck, but to give themselves 60 days (maybe that's all they can allow,I don't know) to raise at least £300k - especially in the current climate - seems like a massive, massive ask. Maybe someone with extremely deep pockets might come along.
I know maybe someone should ask Sir Richard Bra...............Aah wait, we've been here before haven't we :rolling_eyes:
As for the £480K needed? Look I'm aviation through and through, but that's a thick wedge needed to save an airliner. If it was the last one full stop, then understandable, but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60 and although it's future may be under threat, isn't their another taxiable Funbus at Dunsfold? Probably get "Burn The Heretic" thrown at me for this but if £480K is to be raised, unlikely IMO, surely the Lightnings at the other end of the field would be a better option to save?
You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.

GertrudetheMerciless
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

With the larger aircraft, in this case the VC10s, there is a reality to be faced. They are owned by GJD, and there are options to move them elsewhere. However, commercially is would be - to put it bluntly - bonkers. It also hasn’t been helped by the lack of notice to be off site; a 12-24 month lead time could have lead to a charity headed fundraising campaign to be arranged and more solid future plans been out in place perhaps?

Therefore the only option is to put it to “the public”; if they want a live VC10, or to save it on another site, then they will vote with their £££.

If they don’t, no doubt the aircraft will be scrapped on site.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Brevet Cable »

JetMan wrote:
Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:54 pm
It seems a similar situation is happening with the Vc10’s... Gary Spoors’s Aircraft yet the group have to raise the money to move it, and it’ll probably be Gary’s company that move them!
Just breaking my self-imposed exile from here to say.....
Kyles Transport...THS Containers.....both of these companies tend to be used to transport aircraft & bits to SWAM.
Both of which have absolutely bugger-all to do with GS.
( THS were also used to transport XT597 )

But then, why let facts get in the way of a rant. :rolling_eyes:

Back to lurking.
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shorsley
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by shorsley »

Pat Murphy wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 7:35 am
I know maybe someone should ask Sir Richard Bra...............Aah wait, we've been here before haven't we :rolling_eyes:
As for the £480K needed? Look I'm aviation through and through, but that's a thick wedge needed to save an airliner. If it was the last one full stop, then understandable, but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60 and although it's future may be under threat, isn't their another taxiable Funbus at Dunsfold? Probably get "Burn The Heretic" thrown at me for this but if £480K is to be raised, unlikely IMO, surely the Lightnings at the other end of the field would be a better option to save?
Not sure where you're getting 12 airframes from?

As far as I'm aware there's only seven complete airframes preserved, 1 of which is not in this country (Germany). The rest are only fuselage sections and one whole(ish) aircraft used for spares for ZD241. I've also heard from reliable sources that the Sultan of Oman airframe is in less than ideal shape (personally I never got round to going and having a look for myself).

As for ZA150 at Dunsfold, yes her future is under threat, and it's more than likely she has already performed her last taxi run - there were plans for a final farewell run in April but Covid-19 put paid to that. Dunsfold were never terribly accommodating to her anyway. There were some interesting rumours as to her fate, but whether plans have changed I do not know.
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GeeRam
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GeeRam »

XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am
Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
:thinking:

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Archer »

Pat Murphy wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 7:35 am
but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60
See here: https://www.vc10.net/History/preserved.html (54 built in total)

The Lightnings are in a different situation as they are more or less fixed by the Q-shed, but as stated on their website (https://www.lightnings.org.uk/) their premises are excluded from the sale to Cox Automotive, and the land next to them is where David Walton is planning to keep his airframes.
shorsley wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 2:28 pm
I've also heard from reliable sources that the Sultan of Oman airframe is in less than ideal shape
The Sultan's VC10 is in need of a repaint, which isn't surprising as it has been outside since 1987. Significant anti-corrosion work was done in the late 90s but preserving such a large airframe is always a battle against nature. Last year Brooklands has started work on repainting the Vanguard with plans to do the VC10 once that is finished. Unfortunately Covid-19 intervened and the museum is struggling financially, so I don't know what the current status is. Consider visiting them if you can, every little bit helps.

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Before I consider making a donation to the VC-10 group for what is a very worthy cause I would like to have it confirmed by the group who owns ZD241.
The last time this was asked it was suggested that Gary Spores / GJD owned both the VC-10 at Bruntingthorpe. If this is so then I find it hard to accept that the group has to cover the cost to move somebody else's property.
Not slagging anybody off just finding the facts.

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 4:45 pm
Before I consider making a donation to the VC-10 group for what is a very worthy cause I would like to have it confirmed by the group who owns ZD241.
The last time this was asked it was suggested that Gary Spores / GJD owned both the VC-10 at Bruntingthorpe. If this is so then I find it hard to accept that the group has to cover the cost to move somebody else's property.
Not slagging anybody off just finding the facts.
See my earlier post on this page. The VC10 Preservation Group, who operated ZD241 at Bruntingthorpe are not involved in fundraising as they are a charity and therefore I believe it falls outside their remit; the VC10 Rescue and Relocation Project is a collaboration between GJD and enthusiasts/VC10 professionals - some of whom are involved with the Preservation Group.

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Pat Murphy
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Pat Murphy »

XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am
Pat Murphy wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 7:35 am
CJS wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 6:55 am
Domvickery wrote:
Tue 21 Jul 2020, 7:25 pm
The VC10 group want £480k to dismantle & rebuild in a taxiable condition

https://www.gofundme.com/f/vc10-rescue- ... f9zDRwtFw0
I wish them luck, but to give themselves 60 days (maybe that's all they can allow,I don't know) to raise at least £300k - especially in the current climate - seems like a massive, massive ask. Maybe someone with extremely deep pockets might come along.
I know maybe someone should ask Sir Richard Bra...............Aah wait, we've been here before haven't we :rolling_eyes:
As for the £480K needed? Look I'm aviation through and through, but that's a thick wedge needed to save an airliner. If it was the last one full stop, then understandable, but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60 and although it's future may be under threat, isn't their another taxiable Funbus at Dunsfold? Probably get "Burn The Heretic" thrown at me for this but if £480K is to be raised, unlikely IMO, surely the Lightnings at the other end of the field would be a better option to save?
You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
Sorry no assumption made, I just feel that the Lightnings are in an equally perilous state and more people appear to like Fighters with burners than Airliners, just my feeling.
Any reason why you appear to have an issue with the LPG? Or is it Lightnings in general. Just curious....
Pat

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Pat Murphy
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Pat Murphy »

shorsley wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 2:28 pm
Pat Murphy wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 7:35 am
I know maybe someone should ask Sir Richard Bra...............Aah wait, we've been here before haven't we :rolling_eyes:
As for the £480K needed? Look I'm aviation through and through, but that's a thick wedge needed to save an airliner. If it was the last one full stop, then understandable, but their are 12 others from a production run of less than 60 and although it's future may be under threat, isn't their another taxiable Funbus at Dunsfold? Probably get "Burn The Heretic" thrown at me for this but if £480K is to be raised, unlikely IMO, surely the Lightnings at the other end of the field would be a better option to save?
Not sure where you're getting 12 airframes from?

As far as I'm aware there's only seven complete airframes preserved, 1 of which is not in this country (Germany). The rest are only fuselage sections and one whole(ish) aircraft used for spares for ZD241. I've also heard from reliable sources that the Sultan of Oman airframe is in less than ideal shape (personally I never got round to going and having a look for myself).

As for ZA150 at Dunsfold, yes her future is under threat, and it's more than likely she has already performed her last taxi run - there were plans for a final farewell run in April but Covid-19 put paid to that. Dunsfold were never terribly accommodating to her anyway. There were some interesting rumours as to her fate, but whether plans have changed I do not know.
Sorry you're right. I did a brief check on Wiki and some are fuselage sections. My point was that there are far rarer aircraft than the surviving VC 10's and around 20% of the built aircraft still survive in some way. :slight_smile:

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Reds Rolling »

XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am

You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
I always thought it was atrocious the way the LPG asked for money for the QRA sheds, had regular updates about it on various aviation forums, then the minute they had enough money the shutters came down and they pulled everything off the internet.

What a way to treat those people who donated to the cause. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by 106500 »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Thu 23 Jul 2020, 10:26 am
XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am

You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
I always thought it was atrocious the way the LPG asked for money for the QRA sheds, had regular updates about it on various aviation forums, then the minute they had enough money the shutters came down and they pulled everything off the internet.

What a way to treat those people who donated to the cause. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:
They ran an excellent and informative forum on their web site for a long time. However, I understand some years ago a local person or persons used the material to take some form of legal action against the LPG which led to considerable financial outlay on their part. The outcome was the removal of the forum. Understandable I suppose although the detail of the issue wasn’t shared publically as far as I could see.

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GeeRam »

106500 wrote:
Fri 24 Jul 2020, 3:37 am
Reds Rolling wrote:
Thu 23 Jul 2020, 10:26 am
XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am

You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
I always thought it was atrocious the way the LPG asked for money for the QRA sheds, had regular updates about it on various aviation forums, then the minute they had enough money the shutters came down and they pulled everything off the internet.

What a way to treat those people who donated to the cause. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:
They ran an excellent and informative forum on their web site for a long time. However, I understand some years ago a local person or persons used the material to take some form of legal action against the LPG which led to considerable financial outlay on their part. The outcome was the removal of the forum. Understandable I suppose although the detail of the issue wasn’t shared publically as far as I could see.
Heard something similar as well, and also why a couple of them that were regular posters on other forums about LPG activities withdrew from those other forums as well at the same time.

106500
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by 106500 »

GeeRam wrote:
Fri 24 Jul 2020, 8:58 am
106500 wrote:
Fri 24 Jul 2020, 3:37 am
Reds Rolling wrote:
Thu 23 Jul 2020, 10:26 am
XP282 wrote:
Wed 22 Jul 2020, 10:07 am

You make the assumption that those people who want to donate to move the VC10 would be willing to make the same donation to move the lightnings. Personally, I will make a good donation to the VC10 fund, but I wont be sorry if those lightnings never see the the light of day again and I certainly wont be giving them any more of my money.
I always thought it was atrocious the way the LPG asked for money for the QRA sheds, had regular updates about it on various aviation forums, then the minute they had enough money the shutters came down and they pulled everything off the internet.

What a way to treat those people who donated to the cause. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:
They ran an excellent and informative forum on their web site for a long time. However, I understand some years ago a local person or persons used the material to take some form of legal action against the LPG which led to considerable financial outlay on their part. The outcome was the removal of the forum. Understandable I suppose although the detail of the issue wasn’t shared publically as far as I could see.
Heard something similar as well, and also why a couple of them that were regular posters on other forums about LPG activities withdrew from those other forums as well at the same time.
Given that the LPG’s taxiing opportunities if not engine runs have effectively been curtailed, hopefully their exposure to noise related litigation will be mitigated although the action may have been related to engine reliability and safety rather than noise (speculation here!). Perhaps then the LPG may feel that they can be more open with their activities?

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by Burleysway »

STATEMENT RE AVIATION ACTIVITIES AT BRUNTINGTHORPE - Updated 24.07.2020.

We confirm that the Aviation activities carried on at Bruntingthorpe were not acquired by Cox Automotive when they acquired the automotive vehicle services business of C Walton Ltd in March of this year. The Aviation activities, including responsibility for the historic aircraft, remain under the control of a Company owned by the former Directors of C Walton Ltd.
There are no plans to scrap any of the historic British aircraft currently onsite. We have reached agreement with a number of organisations to rehome several of the historic aircraft and are actively pursuing the possibility of establishing an aviation museum upon land adjacent to the Airfield at Bruntingthorpe, but there are a number of practical implications which will determine whether this will ultimately be viable.
As and when there is any further information we shall make further announcements, but in the meantime we confirm that whilst we are working with Cox Automotive upon the possibility of hosting aircraft adjacent to the main entrance gate house, they are not involved in the day to day aspects of managing the Aviation activities and attempting to safeguard the historic British aircraft.

https://www.bruntingthorpe.com/aviation

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by aviationanoraks »

My first reaction to that statement is what about the non-British aircraft? ie. the Guppy.

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Reads as:

“Cox Automotive didn’t realise the relatively large amount of negative PR this transaction would generate, don’t have the experience, manpower or resources to deal with the issue, so are leaving it to the previous business owner to sort whilst removing the threat of imminent mass scrappings”

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 8:25 am
Reads as:

“Cox Automotive didn’t realise the relatively large amount of negative PR this transaction would generate, don’t have the experience, manpower or resources to deal with the issue, so are leaving it to the previous business owner to sort whilst removing the threat of imminent mass scrappings”
Agreed.
However it still doesnt matter too much. a great open air 'museum' has now been ruined almost beyond repair for the sake of 'overstocked' and over produced cars.
Ok, earning a crust is very important to us all, but surely Brunty could have been marketed as such, been open all week, staffed, and publicised accordingly.
Museums do get peeps during the week (paying) so why not?
Well i suppose its car storage on an open field thats easy money really, so why bother with aircraft?
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shorsley
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by shorsley »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 9:52 am
Agreed.
However it still doesnt matter too much. a great open air 'museum' has now been ruined almost beyond repair for the sake of 'overstocked' and over produced cars.
Ok, earning a crust is very important to us all, but surely Brunty could have been marketed as such, been open all week, staffed, and publicised accordingly.
Museums do get peeps during the week (paying) so why not?
Well i suppose its car storage on an open field thats easy money really, so why bother with aircraft?
Er, yes Museums do get paying people in during the week, but sometimes it can be very, very, slow - to the extent that winter weekdays can see (paying) visitors in the single digits. Hence why some museums choose to close over those leaner months - the costs of opening the doors can sometimes outweigh the income generated. But these days do tend to be balanced out by busy event days, and I'm sure that Bruntingthorpe would achieve this on 'running' days.

However if you wanted to turn it into some sort of formally organised open air museum, you'd need to provide a lot more permanent infrastructure - at the very least you'd need a cafe and toilet block, and some organised car parking. As far as I'm aware the locals would have objected to any kind of development of this sort, and so it was a non-goer from the start. Unfortunately at the moment the car storage industry is booming, and doesn't show any sign of slowing down, so yes it's easy money. And a heck of a lot more profitable than running a museum.

Under the Walton's ownership the aviation and car sides of things sat side-by-side, but sadly this is not going to happen with the new owners. Just be grateful (and the locals here to) that it's not disappearing under houses, which would see a permanent end to the airfield and anything aviation related on site.
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GeeRam
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GeeRam »

shorsley wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 11:24 am
Under the Walton's ownership the aviation and car sides of things sat side-by-side, but sadly this is not going to happen with the new owners. Just be grateful (and the locals here to) that it's not disappearing under houses, which would see a permanent end to the airfield and anything aviation related on site.
I suppose from that point of view......yes, its not becoming a housing estate.....but, as for aviation, that's pretty much dead now, as without the runway runs and keeping them live, Brunty will now just be another one of many, rather than being something unique.

The Bucc boys have taken the bull by the whotzits, and have sought pastures new to try and keep going, and good luck to them raising the funds to complete the move.
Shame about the stuff that can't move, especially the LPG, being as I am a huge Frightning fan....but I suppose it had to end one day, and they've managed to keep the 2 of them active for longer than the RAF operated them, so they haven't done too badly.

I especially feel for the group that brought in the Vampire and the NF Meatbox, as they've been badly stitched up, the sale of the car business must have been in process and in talks when Dan Griffith flew the Meteor in only last year?

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

With the apparent need for lots of housing in this country and airfields closed or dormant being eyes up for such ventures, you can practically guarantee that given a pot load of cash, Brunty may just go under tarmac and brick.

I saw a green belt field on the edge of a northern town (one which has plenty of non used brown field space available) the other night and they were building 300 x 3-5 bedroom houses on it.

Its the next thing for the field i think.
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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by 106500 »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 3:02 pm
With the apparent need for lots of housing in this country and airfields closed or dormant being eyes up for such ventures, you can practically guarantee that given a pot load of cash, Brunty may just go under tarmac and brick.

I saw a green belt field on the edge of a northern town (one which has plenty of non used brown field space available) the other night and they were building 300 x 3-5 bedroom houses on it.

Its the next thing for the field i think.
Tend to agree. That would also be a poser for the local populace (an unknown number who I believe were active in complaining about noise at Brunty). Would they prefer an airfield with a certain, limited amount of ‘noise’ from occasional air days and weekend track events or a largish housing development (most likely including social housing)? I wouldn’t mind betting they’d opt for the former!

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Re: Bruntingthorpe Closure?

Post by GeeRam »

106500 wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 5:34 pm
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Sat 25 Jul 2020, 3:02 pm
With the apparent need for lots of housing in this country and airfields closed or dormant being eyes up for such ventures, you can practically guarantee that given a pot load of cash, Brunty may just go under tarmac and brick.

I saw a green belt field on the edge of a northern town (one which has plenty of non used brown field space available) the other night and they were building 300 x 3-5 bedroom houses on it.

Its the next thing for the field i think.
Tend to agree. That would also be a poser for the local populace (an unknown number who I believe were active in complaining about noise at Brunty). Would they prefer an airfield with a certain, limited amount of ‘noise’ from occasional air days and weekend track events or a largish housing development (most likely including social housing)? I wouldn’t mind betting they’d opt for the former!
That's why the local population of Chalgrove got behind Martin-Baker to stop the proposed re-development of that for housing.

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