Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

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CJS
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by CJS »

The cynic in me thinks that a ferry flight was only mentioned in the press release to get people discussing the aircraft again (if so, success!) because that's the one way it surely will never leave its current home.
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GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

G-CVIX wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 3:24 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 10:14 am
Saving the historically significant Canberra should be the priority... and far more achievable both in terms of cost and size of airframe to move.
I quite agree.

Whilst it would be very sad for '558 to be chopped up, they could keep the cockpit as a visitor exhibit, and surely any panels with names on could be kept? The Canberra is a more realistic proposition and could potentially fly.
I can't see WK ever flying again in a UK post Shoreham world. Why would anyone take that on (especially with the Avon 100 series engines issue which grounded it when it was a flyer at Coventry) when they buy the complete PR9 at Kemble?
The PR9 at Kemble was a flyer when MidAir went bust at the end of 2015, and no one wanted that when it was offered at a relative pittance.

Sadly, I don't think we'll see a Canberra in the air in the UK ever again.

Georgeconna
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Georgeconna »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 7:21 am
Take her apart then, it seems!

Move her to Elvington and pray no one wants to develop the site for housing.

Fly her out? how the heck is that possible? the mind boggles.

And where will the considerable amount of money needed come from?
Crowdfunding.....
Cheers

George

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Seahornet
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

GeeRam wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 3:34 pm
106500 wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 2:53 pm
Thankfully the VTTS have a marvellous track record of achievement and despite the ever present scepticism, I believe if anyone can come up with a workable solution, they can. I don't believe a so called ferry flight could ever be feasible and so the solution must lie in dismantling and a road move. The extent to which removal of components would be necessary is unclear.
Oh dear.

Anyway, its not unclear, as its been done before when Crash n Smash dismantled the RAFM Hendon example, but that's was the RAF doing it, and knowing it was never going to be live again, so a lot of the electrical looms at the joints were cut through. It was still a huge undertaking and why would you do it when there are plenty of dead Vulcans in museums already?


If you study the context of this statement, VttS have pretty well spelt out that dismantling for road transport will eliminate any possibility of the airframe ever being 'live' in the future: -
"While we acknowledge that it would be extremely sad to dismantle XH558 it would mean that ultimately, she will be preserved and will still be able to inform, educate and inspire future generations of engineers".
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

GeeRam wrote: ....why would you do it when there are plenty of dead Vulcans in museums already?
None in Wales, none in the Southwest of England, and am I right in thinking that the only one in the South of England is in Hendon?

By that argument, what's the point of building new ( sorry...'dataplate-restorations' ) Spitfires, given the fact that there are already dozens of them in the UK alone?
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by G-CVIX »

GeeRam wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:11 am
G-CVIX wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 3:24 am
centaurus18 wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 10:14 am
Saving the historically significant Canberra should be the priority... and far more achievable both in terms of cost and size of airframe to move.
I quite agree.

Whilst it would be very sad for '558 to be chopped up, they could keep the cockpit as a visitor exhibit, and surely any panels with names on could be kept? The Canberra is a more realistic proposition and could potentially fly.
I can't see WK ever flying again in a UK post Shoreham world. Why would anyone take that on (especially with the Avon 100 series engines issue which grounded it when it was a flyer at Coventry) when they buy the complete PR9 at Kemble?
The PR9 at Kemble was a flyer when MidAir went bust at the end of 2015, and no one wanted that when it was offered at a relative pittance.

Sadly, I don't think we'll see a Canberra in the air in the UK ever again.
I also don't see a flying Canberra in the UK as a likely proposition, but I'd still like to see it saved & kept in one piece, even if it went overseas.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by tache3 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 10:47 am
None in Wales, none in the Southwest of England, and am I right in thinking that the only one in the South of England is in Hendon?
Although there is a live one in Southend. That has a reasonably priced and achievable goal and is- considering the recent history and current uncertainty around XH558- more deserving of support- https://www.justgiving.com/campaign/Vul ... to-Hangar6

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 10:47 am
GeeRam wrote: ....why would you do it when there are plenty of dead Vulcans in museums already?
None in Wales, none in the Southwest of England, and am I right in thinking that the only one in the South of England is in Hendon?
Southend is the South (and their's isn't even dead!).
By that argument, what's the point of building new ( sorry...'dataplate-restorations' ) Spitfires, given the fact that there are already dozens of them in the UK alone?
1. Because they are flyers, not museum pieces.
2. Because lots of people with lots of money are willing to pay for one. I don't think you can say that about Vulcans!

(Glad to see you back BC, even if I am immediately disagreeing with you! :wink: )
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

East, or - at best - Southeast, I'd say. :smirk:

There are a heck of a lot of Spitfires in UK museums, but that aircraft type seems to be some sort of a sacred cow - just look at the outcries there have been on aviation forums when it's announced that one has been sold to an overseas buyer - yet other aircraft types are frowned upon and disparaged whenever preserving or restoring one is mooted.
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Berf
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Berf »

Another candidate for the National Aviation Centre of Excellence and heritage museum at Scampton - which won't be built.

ExVulcanGC
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

Berf, it might have if 558 had dropped in there and stopped flying way back when BBMF were supposed to go there as well, or that might have been me suggesting that as an idea many, many years back :crazy_face:

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

tache3 wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 10:54 am
[quote="Brevet Cable" post_id=927187 time=<a href="tel:1660646827">1660646827</a> user_id=20486]None in Wales, none in the Southwest of England, and am I right in thinking that the only one in the South of England is in Hendon?
Although there is a live one in Southend. That has a reasonably priced and achievable goal and is- considering the recent history and current uncertainty around XH558- more deserving of support- https://www.justgiving.com/campaign/Vul ... to-Hangar6

[/quote]

The lads and lasses at Southend (all unpaid volunteers) would certainly appreciate any support you can give to their Back to Hangar 6 Appeal, which now sits at just over 50% of the way towards its £30,000 target.

Regarding the lack of Vulcans in the south and west, XH558 could help address that by relocating to Kemble. However, it’s all easier said than done - wherever she goes, she’ll need someone to look after her. It would be a long way for her current volunteer crew to go and, if a new group was needed, these take time to build up both in terms of numbers and capability. They certainly don’t materialise overnight.
Ken

911SC
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 911SC »

Georgeconna wrote:
Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:28 am

Crowdfunding.....
Perhaps there’s someone with crowdfunding and financial management experience that could help with that, I guess they’d need to understand how to work positively with the contributors, in a transparent way so there’s no breach of trust or wondering where large sums of money have gone, perhaps also need to be prepared to travel the see the sights, sorry potential sites….

Regarding the ferry flight (can’t believe I just wrote that), assuming the CAA grant dispensation, and they’ve forgotten about the illegal double roll and lack of professionalism of days past, the only reason to do that would be to remain a taxing or engine run status. To do that would mean a relocation of the volunteer group whom are mainly (AIUI) relatively local to EGCN. So logically ( I know, I know, but run with it) a local airfield to EGCN would be best.

It would also mean the Canberra could be dismantled and reassembled, together with its new nose (which is still in the USA), and whatever engines they’ve agreed with the CAA can be used (I’m sure they’ve got that in hand), to bring it to flying status. So they need a hanger, (or two).
So that puts EGCM, Leeds East firmly in the frame. It’d be big enough to land the Vulcan at and be able to subsequently run it, and the Canberra once they’ve found the cash and restored it under cover, could operate from there as the airfields operational characteristics would allow it.

EGCM is also used for various events and filming (Top Gear), and has hangarage that could accommodate a Canberra, for them to mate it with its USA cockpit, and refurbish the deterioration of five years external storage with no tail plane attached.

So EGCM is potentially I’d suggest the only game in town for any flying activity by this group if they’re not going too lose their core volunteer force by relocating.

Other locations with suitable affordable facilities are…. (Non existent)


(the user formerly known as 911t)

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by MiG_Eater »

XH558's situation post flying has been one of the saddest missed opportunities i've seen for heritage aviation.

A huge, financially stable organisation with links to the right people to help with flying classic jets. Why on earth did they continue messing about with their Vulcan which - as many have pointed out - is now just another Vulcan. They could have done so much for the classic jet scene including getting XH134 back in the air, or even just helping the good people at Southend or Wellesbourne.

By far my preferred outcome for XH558 would have been a sale to someone in the USA, or elsewhere, as a flying asset. This way the Vulcan could continue to fly, and the liquidation of such a valuable asset could have really helped the UK jet scene.

I was a fervent support of TVOC throughout the fundraising and subsequent flying programme, but post retirement - their behaviour has been absolutely lamentable.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by pbeardmore »

IMHO, it's linked to our wider culture and regulation infrastructure within the UK. Almost weekly, we see stories in the media of "wrong doing", miss managment, etc etc within registered charities (not alleging anything criminal here of course). The charities commision seems to have the lightest of touches. It seems that any well meaning group (no matter how useless they are re management) can form a charity and regulators seem to have no proactive role, only stepping in (if at all) when it's too late. Linked to that, we have a very generous and passionate jo public who are always keen to support a good cause but often not so keen to "do some digging" and look carefully at a charity to look at the true picture. Finally, the media don't help as they build certain causes up and any balance or scrutiny is seen as miserly and/or in bad taste.

PS there is also an issue with the culture of Trustees. Many take on the role with questionable motives and "group think" within the board leads to strategies that are not "stress tested" until far too late. The levels of accountability are nowhere near the same as with Directors on private companies. I really struggle to see, in this example, how the strategy was stress tested to ensure it was both reasonably achievable and sustainable and both the medium and long term. I would love to see minutes from the Board meetings but no legal obligation to publish.

PPS

Complain to the Charity Commission if a charity is, for example:

not doing what it claims to do
losing lots of money
harming people
being used for personal profit or gain
involved in illegal activity


"To preserve Avro Vulcan XH558 and return other aircraft and engineering artefacts of significant heritage interest to working order" is taken from the charity commision website. Based on that, we have to ask ourselves "is it doing what it claims to do" , others forum members will know more re "losing lots of money"
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Stagger2 »

Dear VTTS./VTST./TVOC or whatever your moniker is this week,
Can I please have the piece of fuselage with my name on it. It was a Birthday present & has huge sentimental value to me, even though I've never got the chance to see it. My Certificate is in pristine condition unlike the 'Peoples Aircraft', but I'm willing to clean-up my piece! :wink:
Yours hopefully,
Mr Stagger.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by pbeardmore »

I'm unsure what the law is but, if they do have to scrap, dismantle etc, then do they have to close the charity as , by defintion, they have failed in their core aim?

“Any changes proposed should be reasonable, consistent with what your charity does, and not undermine your existing objectives."

I'm pretty sure cutting up the airframe would "undermine your existing objectives"
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ExVulcanGC
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

Good point Stagger2, as I am the same so would be interested in what happens to the 'plaques' with our names on, probably want to sell them to us again :rofl:

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 911SC »

Some say ‘plaque’, others say ‘sticker’.

https://vulcantothesky.org/projects/nam ... niversary/

Should be easy to peel off though for those that want them.

ExVulcanGC
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

I just used the description from the certificate provided, which calls them plaques, probably to make them sound posh, going to be a bit hard to share the stickers/plaques with all the other people on the same one and after all this time would assume that they might be rather hard to remove.

Wonder how long it will be before we get an inkling of the two places they are looking at 558 ending up and the funding strategy for said move, it seems that it is known where it is not going.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by AndyXH558 »

I can only echo mig eaters sentiments on running 558.

Alas I don't see a ferry flight, unless.. pie In the sky. Sold to an American and put on their experimental register. .

The USAF and pima air museums would in my view be a suitable retirement homes for her however I don't see her leaving finningley in any recognisable pieces apart from the nose.

Hope I'm wrong. But the vtst has burned too many bridges, including myself

I hope 163 could be saved, that I would hope could go to it's birthplace at Woodford
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

AndyXH558 wrote:But the vtst has burned too many bridges, including myself
As you know, they lost a lot of goodwill ( an understatement! ) with their core supporters, presumably forgetting or ignoring the fact that many of those were the people who were prepared to throw money at the aircraft & slog their guts out fundraising.
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106500
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

MiG_Eater wrote:
Wed 17 Aug 2022, 9:23 am

A huge, financially stable organisation with links to the right people to help with flying classic jets. Why on earth did they continue messing about with their Vulcan which - as many have pointed out - is now just another Vulcan.

I must admit to finding this comment rather surprising. VTTS were always absolutely clear about what their post flight objective was - to ensure the future safeguarding of XH558. I absolutely disagree with the opinion that it is now just another Vulcan. It is an extremely special aircraft which millions saw fly at displays and elsewhere both in its RAF VDF days and of course with its hugely successful return to flight era. I can just imagine the news headlines if, perish the thought the airframe was threatened with destruction. I reckon that would make national news headlines! Yes, VTTS has had a tough time in the post flight era and it was never going to be easy both to choose the optimum location and to fund the future. I still think that they are the organisation best placed to see through the next few months and of course serious funding will be needed whatever the solution. I really cannot see an alternative to everyone getting behind VTTS just as they did way back in 2006. However, to simply give up now and see the destruction of XH558 is surely unthinkable!

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by MiG_Eater »

Sorry 106500 but I think you're wrong about 558 being as special as that.

There are numerous Vulcans with more exciting histories, and whilst there is a personal connection to 558 - the reason that it was special was because it was the only one flying. As a non-flyer 558 was never going to be an attraction alone. If it were a feature of another museum (as with the originally planned Duxford) they would no doubt make plenty of money, but frankly I think the sooner TVOC stop sapping money away from other heritage projects, the better. Its incredibly sad, but that is my opinion.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

MiG_Eater wrote: I think the sooner TVOC stop sapping money away from other heritage projects, the better
And how, exactly, are they doing that?
It's not as if many people who donate(d) to XH558 are going to switch to supporting another aircraft, going from when the question was asked on the now-defunct VTTS forum ( from what I recall, a lot of them didn't even want to contribute to WK163 when VTST acquired it )
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