XH558 News

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Archer
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Archer »

GeeRam wrote:
Sat 05 Feb 2022, 5:18 pm
boff180 wrote:
Sat 05 Feb 2022, 7:36 am
According to Thunder & Lightnings history of the airframe… the wings on XL318 were cut off.
I'm not sure that's correct.
The Pistonheads thread linked to above has a complete set of photos that show how the Vulcan was disassembled. It certainly looks like it was taken apart along the production joins and such, but that's a lot of deriveting, removal of special bolts and other challenging tasks. As for systems and wiring... you'll never get it all back connected again after such an episode!

Reds Rolling
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Reds Rolling »

So reading the press release, they can't find the money for the hangar/visitor centre, but intend to keep doing education stuff and maintain the aircraft.

Well, doesn't sound so bad. Both XM655 and XL426 are both kept outside and seem to be doing just fine with the help of volunteers, so I see no reason why XH558 can't also be ok being kept outdoors.

The Trust will just have to scale back on the big plans they had, to something more suitable to what they can actually afford.

bernarde
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Re: XH558 News

Post by bernarde »

New news: From 01/03/22 PEEL will be charging the trust for storage/ground fee's within Doncaster Airport. They've had almost 5 years rent free.

Gt5500
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Gt5500 »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Mon 07 Feb 2022, 12:50 pm
Well, doesn't sound so bad. Both XM655 and XL426 are both kept outside and seem to be doing just fine with the help of volunteers, so I see no reason why XH558 can't also be ok being kept outdoors.
Doesn't sound so bad until you consider that VTTS probably spent XM655 and XL426's combined budgets for the last ten years in the last 12 months...
Edit: I'm probably exaggerating but you get the point.

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ericbee123
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Re: XH558 News

Post by ericbee123 »

I saw XH558 display many times, before it retired the first time around. After it’s restoration to flight, I was there for it’s maiden return flight, I stalked it for the first year seeing it many times, as often as I could, in the air. I went out of my way to see it fly over if it was transiting nearby and caught it when I could. I saw it’s last flight into it’s second retirement.

Now this where it’s going to annoy people - I haven’t bothered one little bit about it since it stopped flying. I would not travel to see it parked up.

I live near an airfield that had a Vulcan on display. I watched it fly in. It was parked up for 20 years less than a mile from my house. You could almost touch it, probably could if you leaned over the wire fence - I went past it daily - didn’t really bother with it when it was parked there.

If I’m not bothered about a Vulcan parked 1 mile from my house I’m not going out of my way to see another one parked somewhere else.

Sorry. It’s another static Vulcan. I wouldn’t really be that bothered about a taxying one either if I’m honest - one of them back in the air, I would be travelling anywhere to see that - a parked or taxying one - not bothered about it to be honest.
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purple_95
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Re: XH558 News

Post by purple_95 »

bernarde wrote:
Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:18 pm
New news: From 01/03/22 PEEL will be charging the trust for storage/ground fee's within Doncaster Airport. They've had almost 5 years rent free.
5 years rent free and still in a mess when it comes to money, not looking promising is it.

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pbeardmore
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Re: XH558 News

Post by pbeardmore »

Some good points being made here. When people see a Concorde airframe at a museum, are they concerned whether it was the last to fly? Does this last airframe have a higher value than the others? I think this may be an example of the charity believing it's own hype and collective group think. Is there any evidence of a "plan b" ? Surely , the trustees had a duty of care to make plans just in case every fund raising target was not reached?
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Reds Rolling
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Reds Rolling »

Gt5500 wrote:
Tue 08 Feb 2022, 11:45 am
Reds Rolling wrote:
Mon 07 Feb 2022, 12:50 pm
Well, doesn't sound so bad. Both XM655 and XL426 are both kept outside and seem to be doing just fine with the help of volunteers, so I see no reason why XH558 can't also be ok being kept outdoors.
Doesn't sound so bad until you consider that VTTS probably spent XM655 and XL426's combined budgets for the last ten years in the last 12 months...
Edit: I'm probably exaggerating but you get the point.
Maybe, but it wasn't my money, so I don't really care.

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Roger_Over
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Roger_Over »

If I were to suggest one Vulcan with higher value than others I'd say XM607. Hopefully the folks at Waddo are taking care with the cosmetic work.

XH558 was unique and wonderful while airworthy, I saw it display in RAF service when I was a teenager, travelled all over to experience the Vulcan effect again post restoration, shed a tear when it flew over former RAF Middleton St George on the final flight and contributed to many pleas for funding from VTTS. Now it's a static airframe in the wrong place, are many people likely to be attracted there? I'd rather go a bit further south to Newark where there's a lot more to see as well as a Vulcan.

If a better home can be found maybe it should be dismantled (accepting irreversible damage to internal systems/structures) and moved before the condition deteriorates.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by f4phixeruk »

Roger_Over wrote:
Tue 08 Feb 2022, 1:54 pm
If I were to suggest one Vulcan with higher value than others I'd say XM607. Hopefully the folks at Waddo are taking care with the cosmetic work.

XH558 was unique and wonderful while airworthy, I saw it display in RAF service when I was a teenager, travelled all over to experience the Vulcan effect again post restoration, shed a tear when it flew over former RAF Middleton St George on the final flight and contributed to many pleas for funding from VTTS. Now it's a static airframe in the wrong place, are many people likely to be attracted there? I'd rather go a bit further south to Newark where there's a lot more to see as well as a Vulcan.

If a better home can be found maybe it should be dismantled (accepting irreversible damage to internal systems/structures) and moved before the condition deteriorates.
Only problem with that, apart from finding someone with a load of money to pay for dismantlement, transportation, reassembly. Where would it go ?? Also then you only have another Vulcan museum piece. Unless you have other exhibits. People arent going to turn up in droves. Just to see the last Vulcan that flew sadly
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Re: XH558 News

Post by purple_95 »

Only problem with that, apart from finding someone with a load of money to pay for dismantlement, transportation, reassembly. Where would it go ?? Also then you only have another Vulcan museum piece. Unless you have other exhibits. People arent going to turn up in droves. Just to see the last Vulcan that flew sadly
This perfectly valid point was made time and time again when the plan to retire 558 to Doncaster was first announced, myself and others were ripped to bits for daring to say this. As I said back in 2015 I can get in the car and in less time than it would take me to get to Doncaster I can get to four museums all including a Vulcan and various other airframes, if I woke up one day and thought I would like to see a static Vulcan on its own, I can go to Waddington viewing carpark and do so for free, or take a trip down to Wellsbourne and see the same.

Do not think I am sitting here with some I was right attitude, I take no pleasure in seeing the way this has all turned out but many people said it would, from enthusiasts on forums all the way up to people who have a lifetime of experience working in aviation museums and visitor attractions and yet for some reason despite all this nobody seemed willing to say "ok we might be making an error here and need to think again".

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Reds Rolling »

So have the trust announced an end to engine runs and saying that the aircraft is a static museum piece only now?

Seems to be a lot of talk here about moving it to other museums and stuff, but if they still intend to keep it running then it can only stay where it is.

purple_95
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Re: XH558 News

Post by purple_95 »

Engine runs to continue, but as ever limited numbers attending and only several times per year. My point r.e. seeing a static Vulcan was that 99.9 percent of the time that is what it is, and there are plenty of static ones elsewhere I can go and see. For me trying to market the planned visitor centre as being a day out to go and visit the Vulcan at Doncaster is a non starter when one can visit so many other museums or airfields and the like and see plenty more alongside a Vulcan.

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Rockhopper
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Rockhopper »

Trying to build any kind of experience or museum around one aircraft was never going to work. Even larger collections are struggling. The real shame is that sooner or later the airport are going to want their rent paying (sooner by the sounds of it), there will be no money to do so and the aircraft will be seized and sold for scrap to pay off debts.

GeeRam
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Re: XH558 News

Post by GeeRam »

purple_95 wrote:
Tue 08 Feb 2022, 6:48 pm
Do not think I am sitting here with some I was right attitude, I take no pleasure in seeing the way this has all turned out but many people said it would, from enthusiasts on forums all the way up to people who have a lifetime of experience working in aviation museums and visitor attractions and yet for some reason despite all this nobody seemed willing to say "ok we might be making an error here and need to think again".
I don't think there was/is anyone within VTS that had/has the humility to ever come out and say that :thinking:

'We' all know that the whole premise of the Lottery Grant in regard to what happened after it stopped flying was a con to get the money, as if that part of the 'plan' was not there, there would have been no money forthcoming.
So, we were always going to come to this point, as that part of the plan, was never going to work, especially with the constant money drain of having full time staff draining the coffers that were gradually going to run dry, because of the unviability of the whole thing, but because of the demands of the grant from HLF.
The shame is the fact that VTS were too stupid and arrogant to see what everyone else could see, and were happy to risk the aircraft long term, instead of positioning the aircraft somewhere that, should VTS fail and get wound up (as it surely will) the aircraft could still have been in a location where a purely volunteer effort (such as with '655 and '426) could have continued long after VTS was gone. That was and is very likely not going to happen as soon as the decision was made to land at Doncaster for the last time. The fact that VTS even tried to justify the location based on needing a live airport to continue flying from in the hysterical belief that they were going to raise the funds to house '558 as well as finance the restoration of the Skorpion Canberra and operate that in a post Shoreham world, was even more incredulous.

Its just a shame that even a fraction of the money given to VTS since '558 landed for the last time, couldn't have gone to restoration and upkeep on '607 or putting a roof over '597's head.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by Reds Rolling »

Rockhopper wrote:
Tue 15 Feb 2022, 7:16 am
Trying to build any kind of experience or museum around one aircraft was never going to work. Even larger collections are struggling. The real shame is that sooner or later the airport are going to want their rent paying (sooner by the sounds of it), there will be no money to do so and the aircraft will be seized and sold for scrap to pay off debts.
Bit of an assumption there. If people are still donating to the charity then they may very well be able to pay the rent. VttS just need to cut out wasting it on consultants and other unnecessary jobs and run the thing with volunteers.
GeeRam wrote:
Tue 15 Feb 2022, 11:43 am
Its just a shame that even a fraction of the money given to VTS since '558 landed for the last time, couldn't have gone to restoration and upkeep on '607 or putting a roof over '597's head.
Not this old ridiculous chestnut. The money that's gone to 558 has been donated by people who wanted it to go to that particular aircraft.

You can't go assuming that people would have given their money elsewhere if 558 didn't exist nor can money given for one particular aircraft be then spent on another that isn't even owned by the same charity.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by GeeRam »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Wed 16 Feb 2022, 1:48 pm
GeeRam wrote:
Tue 15 Feb 2022, 11:43 am
Its just a shame that even a fraction of the money given to VTS since '558 landed for the last time, couldn't have gone to restoration and upkeep on '607 or putting a roof over '597's head.
Not this old ridiculous chestnut. The money that's gone to 558 has been donated by people who wanted it to go to that particular aircraft.

You can't go assuming that people would have given their money elsewhere if 558 didn't exist nor can money given for one particular aircraft be then spent on another that isn't even owned by the same charity.
Well, you could argue, that the most of the money raised has never gone to '558, its gone into other things to do with running VTS :wink:

As for your last sentence, I never implied either of those points in my comments, so why write that?

I was just lamenting the fact that people are still daft enough to donate to a long lost cause rather than something more worthy in terms of Vulcan preservation. But that's life, and typical of the '558 hysteria.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Never mind the public donations to the VTTS being able to "upkeep '607 or putting a roof over '597's head" The Lottery money alone could have put a roof over all the surviving Vulcan, Victors and a fair few other large aircraft. It is all well and good moaning about the management of the last few years. The problems started the minute one mans dream to return a perfectly good ground running aircraft To The Sky.

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Re: XH558 News

Post by andygolfer »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Wed 16 Feb 2022, 5:29 pm
Never mind the public donations to the VTTS being able to "upkeep '607 or putting a roof over '597's head" The Lottery money alone could have put a roof over all the surviving Vulcan, Victors and a fair few other large aircraft.
I really can’t see that at all – the grant was c.£2.8 million. VTST were trying to raise £2.2 million for their hangar and experience, the basic ‘shell’ would have accounted for at least half of that albeit at today’s prices which probably (yes an assumption I admit) was around ½ to ¾ of a million in 2005 when the scheme was being planned. That wouldn’t leave much for other ‘roof over the head’ projects out of the original HLF grant.
My view is that the HLF grant conditions were too onerous particularly for the post flight era. The majority of the grant was always going to be needed to realise the ambition of getting 558 back in the air, didn’t that in itself amount to over £7 million? So the legacy part really needed to be done on the cheap. It’s been said here and elsewhere many times that once 558 stopped flying it was just another Vulcan so why couldn’t the legacy part have been achieved by funding an equivalent experience at an existing museum. By now - apart from us die hard enthusiasts, how many joe public visitors will care which Vulcan they are looking at in a museum, for most of them it’s just a case of ‘I remember seeing one of those fly 10 years ago’ not ‘I saw that one fly 10 years ago’.
I’m sure that originally it was stated that the aircraft would be retired to Duxford, that in itself was somewhat flawed, for the reason I’ve given above Duxford would see no reason to replace their Vulcan which historically had a more significant service history with 558. The only possible reason would be to ground run it at the flying days but that is probably not reason enough for Duxford to have another Vulcan on the site especially with the lack of space they now seem to have. With the trust set up they might also have seen that as awkward competition, for instance would the trust have asked for a portion of gate receipts if they still had a degree of control on their aircraft.
I agree wholly with the previous opinions here that a single aircraft experience is never going to work no matter how iconic the aircraft is. I have a passion for 558 having supported the project from the early days of restoration but even I don’t see it as that unique, there are far more ‘historic’ aircraft in the UK and the world and none of the curators of them have had the audacity to claim the aircraft is special enough to be a single stand alone museum piece. Yes I know the plan was to have a Canberra in the exhibition as well but that despite that airframe’s history is never going to be a ‘joe public’ crowd puller. Like many others (and not just die hard enthusiasts) travelled many miles, often more than a 200 mile round trip to see a 7 minute display by 558 and the experience was amazing BUT I wouldn’t consider driving that far (passing 2 or 3 other Vulcans on the way) to see a static aircraft especially on it’s own and therein lies the difference. I did drive 200 mile round trips to see it fly but on average it was probably less than 100 miles because the Vulcan could essentially come to me. Once grounded that option no longer exists and basically most people would be too lazy to drive much more than one hour to see a static aircraft and even then would want a near full day out with lots of other aircraft to view at the same location.
For what it’s worth I felt it should have gone to an existing museum and preferably on a site that had no potential for development thus giving as secure a future as possible. If I had to name a name I’d say Yeovilton for a variety of reasons including the one above (potential development), possible hangar space and an annual airshow where it could do a taxi run and possibly other taxi runs during the year without commercial operational pressures. Also (almost surprisingly) there’s no preserved Vulcans in the south or south west- Hendon is probably the furthest south altohugh Coventry might just be closer. Anyway the ‘Vulcan free’ catchment is quite large and a good existing museum to boot.

Regarding the staffing of the Trust, it probably needed to have an element of full time employees during the restoration and flying phases but I fear they over egged their popularity once flying ceased and should have cut staff and costs rapidly in late 2015 before the accrued funds dried up. That was one of the big mistakes – not appreciating that from that point on 558 was just another Vulcan.
I was surprised to learn in late 2015 that although they had those grand plans they has not got much in the coffers to kick start those plans nor had they got any large benefactors, it was all down to hope. At that point they should have been thinking if the dream was achievable and if not, what was a viable cheaper alternative. They also needed to appreciate that they might not be able to be the king pin at the final location but part of a bigger exhibition but for a long time they believed that they were. That is probably what got them unstuck more than anything else.

It’s a bit sad after all that was achieved and maybe the dreams should have been far more ambitious, hindsight is a wonderful thing!

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CJS
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Re: XH558 News

Post by CJS »

Rockhopper wrote:
Tue 15 Feb 2022, 7:16 am
Trying to build any kind of experience or museum around one aircraft was never going to work. Even larger collections are struggling. The real shame is that sooner or later the airport are going to want their rent paying (sooner by the sounds of it), there will be no money to do so and the aircraft will be seized and sold for scrap to pay off debts.
They've managed it at the Bristol Aerospace Museum, although they've also got other stellar exhibits there too. The focus is obvs the Concorde though. But a key difference (perhaps) is that it's not sitting at a live airport and is therefore dead easy to visit (which I do from time to time).

So you can build a museum around an aircraft, and very successfully, but maybe only if it's in the right place to start with, which '558 very clearly isn't unless they (the VTTS bods) are planning to somehow keep her 'alive' with expensive and (dare I say it) pointless engine runs.

She's never gonna fly again, that much is obvious. And surely the pool of those willing to pay (a lot of) money to hear the engines is going to dwindle, as even the most die-hard of fans isn't going to pay to do that more than once (I don't expect).

I agree with others who say that, whilst she was unique when flying, now she's another Vulcan but in a far less accessible place than most of the others. And even if you disagree with that because of the engine runs, well once the engine runs for the last time, that really will be the case.

I wonder what the feelings towards the BBMF Lancaster will be when she has to stop flying (I don't know when that is planned or estimated to be btw, if it is at all) but that will be another very similar situation (albeit there is one additional flying example in that case).
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purple_95
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Re: XH558 News

Post by purple_95 »

558 is not even unique in terms of ground running, 426 and 655 are both able to fast taxi and both have done in recent months, and the cost to attend is far less than what you would pay for a static run from 558.

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Blue_2
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Blue_2 »

I feel this will limp on until they can no longer pay their rent to Peel, who it has to be said seem to have been more than fair with 558 during her tenure at Finningley.
Then... taken by Peel in lieu of monies owed, stripped of saleable stuff then hopefully stuck on the gate rather than given the chop.
If it does come to this, I hope she lasts better than the previous gate guard Vulcan at Finningley.
Maybe if they are lucky, the 3 concrete plinths from the last one are still in situ...
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106500
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Re: XH558 News

Post by 106500 »

This doesn’t bode well for XH558? Must be a worry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-62149511

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Rockhopper
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Re: XH558 News

Post by Rockhopper »

The skip lorries will be warming their engines up...

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ericbee123
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Re: XH558 News

Post by ericbee123 »

Rockhopper wrote:
Wed 13 Jul 2022, 1:56 pm
The skip lorries will be warming their engines up...
I’m setting up a new charity. VTTS. Vulcan To The Skip.

£50 secures a commemorative name plate on the bottom of the skip.
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