CAA swept wing restrictions

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AARDVARK
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CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by AARDVARK »

Sorry if this has a thread else where but was wondering if/when there will be a review by the CAA on the ongoing limit to ex military swept wing jets being permitted to fly demos over land?
Everyone remembers the tragic circumstances at Shoreham and we should never forget those who lost their lives and injured, but it has now been nearly 7yrs and surely some sort of review could be made, lets face it prior to that tragic event there were no accidents for many years that had caused fatalities to members of the public, be that in or outside the airshow grounds.
Thought it was worth a post.

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Seahornet
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Seahornet »

In my opinion: There isn't the slightest hope of the restrictions ever being relaxed. There would be no benefit whatsoever to the CAA (a few enthusiasts posting "well done" on a forum wouldn't really cut the mustard for them...), whereas the brickbats and repercussions if another incident then occurred would always stand as an overwhelming deterrent to such action.
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Rockhopper
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Rockhopper »

The question is what's changed in the last seven years that would make sure it never happens again?

MiG_Eater
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by MiG_Eater »

The real question is what do the current restrictions do that in any way mitigate the causes of the accident? I'll give you a hint - none.

The rules as-were were not being followed at the time of the accident and there were numerous other failings. None of them had anything to do with the shape of the aircraft's wings.

Mike
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Mike »

The Gnat accident also had a bearing on the CAA's decision

Basically they've decided that a bunch of civilian wannabe fighter pilots have no business performing low-level aerobatics in swept-wing jets, so they've outlawed the practice. Quite rightly IMO

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CJS
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by CJS »

Mike wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 8:01 am
The Gnat accident also had a bearing on the CAA's decision

Basically they've decided that a bunch of civilian wannabe fighter pilots have no business performing low-level aerobatics in swept-wing jets, so they've outlawed the practice. Quite rightly IMO
I don't know, but I'm guessing some of them at least are retired actual fighter pilots, rather than 'wannabe' ones 🤷‍♂️
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G-CVIX
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by G-CVIX »

Sorry, I'm completely out of the loop with it all, can anyone remind me exactly what the restrictions are and what aircraft they apply to?

There's so few classic jets around, all I can recall seeing in the last few years are the MiG-15, T-33 and the Strikemaster Pair but I don't recall if they were aerobatic or not.

I'd love to see a Hunter on the circuit again but it's not likely to happen, is it?

Personally, I've got no issue with non-aerobatic displays.

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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Mike »

CJS wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 10:11 am
Mike wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 8:01 am
The Gnat accident also had a bearing on the CAA's decision

Basically they've decided that a bunch of civilian wannabe fighter pilots have no business performing low-level aerobatics in swept-wing jets, so they've outlawed the practice. Quite rightly IMO
I don't know, but I'm guessing some of them at least are retired actual fighter pilots, rather than 'wannabe' ones 🤷‍♂️
Like the one who slammed a perfectly operational jet into a busy roadway at Shoreham, you mean?

Either way, civilian pilots with low levels of currency on type have no business operating high-performance jets in low-level high-energy aerobatic displays, and the CAA has quite rightly put a stop to the practice.

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Roger_Over
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Roger_Over »

An accident can happen in any aircraft regardless of wing shape, and regardless of discussions over the judgement or capability of the Hunter pilot at Shoreham I don't see why the risk of incident involving historic jets over land can't be mitigated to normal levels by just prohibiting high G manoeuvres whilst allowing a few flypasts and rolls. And obviously ensuring the continuing strict maintenance standards for the operators and health/capability monitoring of the pilots.

If there were enough people who cared perhaps crowd funding a legal challenge would be an option, but as mentioned it's probably just a minority of enthusiasts who would be interested. I'm biased, I love the character and diversity of classic jets and seeing a few on departures on Monday was the aviation highlight of my year so far.

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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Mike »

Roger_Over wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 10:39 am
An accident can happen in any aircraft regardless of wing shape, and regardless of discussions over the judgement or capability of the Hunter pilot at Shoreham I don't see why the risk of incident involving historic jets over land can't be mitigated to normal levels by just prohibiting high G manoeuvres whilst allowing a few flypasts and rolls. And obviously ensuring the continuing strict maintenance standards for the operators and health/capability monitoring of the pilots.
But that’s what is allowed (with the exception of rolls). Non-aerobatic displays by swept-wing jets (such as by the Norwegian MiG-15) are permitted. I see no problem with the current rules.

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Roger_Over
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Roger_Over »

There's no real excuse then for not seeing them better represented at the few military airshows we have left.

I was very lucky to see dynamic displays of civvy Hunter and Viggen in Poland in 2019 which took me back to the days when we took them for granted, but would be very satisfied by a few gentle flypasts these days.

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aviodromefriend
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by aviodromefriend »

Having seen a display by the Dutch Hunter post-Shoreham that was non-aerobatic, I would say it is perfectly possible to show it off without aerobatics. Actually, it was the best Hunter demo I've ever seen. No need to wring it into aerobatics (well, maybe in the case of a Hunter you could argue it should have a loop in it due to that 22 ship Farnborough thing, but I thought a loop was just what went wrong at Shoreham). Just a few passes, one arced and produce a few Blue Notes. Job done.
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Tommy
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Tommy »

It would be helpful to know what the actual restrictions are - I don’t think they stop flying or even display flying with swept wings, do they?

I thought they just stopped aerobatics.

It’s not that the CAA has banned classic jets - the Swedes made it over (and could display over water), G-CVIX managed it fine for 18 months before her gear-up landing in 2017, as does the Norwegian MiG-17.

So I’d have thought that it’s not a ban on demonstration flying per se, but just aeros - some of the best classic jet displays I’ve ever seen have been basically graceful flypasts, and gentle turns, rather than rolls and loops (which I get is a preference thing but I can take or leave tbh).

I think the true nub of the issue is the sparse classic jet scene in the U.K. at the moment, but that’s probably a different kettle of fish (tighter regs, higher insurance premiums, airshows booking the cheaper acts, lack of space/hangarage/expertise whatever, and a lack of will amongst the operators) rather than the CAA being the bogey men.

I have heard that the Admirals Barge Hunter at NW is being restored, and there’s that raspberry ripple Hawk at St Athan.

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Tommy
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Tommy »

Mike wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 10:36 am
Either way, civilian pilots with low levels of currency on type have no business operating high-performance jets in low-level high-energy aerobatic displays, and the CAA has quite rightly put a stop to the practice.
Hear hear.

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Skylinerworld
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Skylinerworld »

Is the Gnat Display Team still active these days? I guess they could display still if it was simply straight forward passes, in formation?
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FGR2
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by FGR2 »

I think it is a shame we don’t see more of what we currently have, we very rarely see the Vampire T.11 at shows.

I do wonder whether costs to airshows is partly the factor.

The biggest losses were when Classic Airforce’s fleet was sold off with most aircraft i.e Meteor and Venoms going overseas and the Canberra restoration being abandoned.

Berf
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Berf »

I believe (but happy to be corrected) that the last CAA safety notice on this was in 2018 and it stated:

The CAA has now removed the restriction preventing straight wing ex-military jet aircraft (Category G11) performing aerobatics at overland flying displays. Therefore, it is now permissible for Category G1 straight wing ex-military jet aircraft to perform aerobatic sequences at overland Flying Displays. This Safety Notice applies to all overland Flying Displays in the UK.

Swept wing ex-military jet aircraft (Category G2) remain restricted to flypast and associated positioning manoeuvres at overland Flying Displays. Flying Displays over the sea remain unaffected for swept wing ex-military jet aircraft provided that the Flying Display Director has properly assessed the risks associated with any third parties, including any vessels moored or transiting in the vicinity of the display line, before permitting aerobatics by any ex- military jet aircraft.


So - overland - swept wing aircraft can carry out flypasts.

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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Berf »

I would also add that for those wishing more 'exciting' arrivals with touch and go or low flypasts at RIAT beware of what you wish. One major safety incident on arrivals or departures, or even the display itself will more than likely put an end to the types of high dynamic displays we see now.

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pbeardmore
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by pbeardmore »

I'm a novice in this area so a genuine question on this: Isn't a straight wing jet in the hands of an inexperienced pilot a greater risk than a swept wing jet in the hands of an experienced pilot? Is not the background of the pilot the key variable rather than the aircraft?
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cg_341
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by cg_341 »

Straight wing aircraft are theoretically more forgiving than swept wing ones for some reason that's beyond my understanding of physics, it's why most elementary/basic training aircraft are straight winged.

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centaurus18
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by centaurus18 »

As the years go by, the jets themselves get older and the pool of ex-military pilots with multiple hours on type gets smaller and smaller.
That is probably one of the CAA's main factors for the restrictions.

Take the Hunter for instance, as it stands you could count the number of ex-military pilots with operational hours on type and with a current or recently expired Display Authorisation (DA) on the fingers of one hand.
During the boom of the late 90's/early 2000s, you had the likes of Brian Grant, Keith Hartley, John Aldington, Craig Penrice, Jonathon Whaley, Andy Cubin, Dave Roome, Rod Dean, John Davies, Andy Wyatt etc. etc.
Today...no so many. only three immediately come to mind (Dan Griffith, John Hurrell at Shuttleworth and Brian Cornes at Rendcombe).
HHA of course has its pool of pilots but they are not display aircraft.

Maintaining currency is now so, so difficult with the costs and aircraft availability.

Take the RNHF Sea Hawk... the pool of 6/7 pilots that flew it on the circuit before, only two remain actively flying in the UK, but neither are on fast jets now and only one is still serving.
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GeeRam
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by GeeRam »

Seahornet wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 7:13 am
In my opinion: There isn't the slightest hope of the restrictions ever being relaxed.
I agree with that.
Won't ever happen.

purple_95
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by purple_95 »

FGR2 wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 12:02 pm
I think it is a shame we don’t see more of what we currently have, we very rarely see the Vampire T.11 at shows.

I do wonder whether costs to airshows is partly the factor.

The biggest losses were when Classic Airforce’s fleet was sold off with most aircraft i.e Meteor and Venoms going overseas and the Canberra restoration being abandoned.
I know costs must be an issue but one cant help but wonder if that is not the only issue with the T.11. The Norwegian Vampires have displayed at plenty of venues over the last couple of years, as has the MIG-15 and the two Stikemasters from the Strikemaster team. I would imagine the costs involved for such displays could in some cases be higher than the Vampire and several shows have been able to afford visiting classic jets like the Swedish Draken for displays over the sea in recent seasons.

All of that being said it was fantastic to see the T.11 display at the Midland Air Festival over the Jubilee weekend, must have been the first time I have seen that Vampire flying for about five years now.

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Gonzo230
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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Gonzo230 »

Berf wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 1:05 pm
I would also add that for those wishing more 'exciting' arrivals with touch and go or low flypasts at RIAT beware of what you wish. One major safety incident on arrivals or departures, or even the display itself will more than likely put an end to the types of high dynamic displays we see now.
Agreed.

Arrivals and departures days are standard air traffic operations, operating within standard CAA/MAA rules.

Unless previously coordinated with the FCC and the event organisers (for example, at RIAT the German Tornado FCC calibration runs at 500, 300 and 100ft, or E-4B arrival at 500ft), all arrivals will be standard run and break via initials, or a go around into the circuit at not below 400ft AGL. Crews are instructed to follow standard departure procedures on the Monday.

One doesn’t have to go too far into past airprox reports to understand why anything else on airshow arrival or departure days can introduce hazards to operations.

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Re: CAA swept wing restrictions

Post by Mike »

Gonzo230 wrote:
Sat 23 Jul 2022, 9:08 pm
One doesn’t have to go too far into past airprox reports to understand why anything else on airshow arrival or departure days can introduce hazards to operations.
Maybe so, but he wasn’t at RIAT this year.

Nor Cosford either. Funny that…

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