Burma Spitire

[Duxfordian]

only on this forum could Burma spits lead to high-viz!

I was on a speed awareness course last week and the question was asked why do workmen wear high vis jackets. And someone replied "because they didnt work hard enough at school to get a proper job"

[ArabJazzie]

In fact its a joke amonst us pilots when they demand hi viz and someone arrives without one. 'Excuse me sir but you need a hi viz jacket here before walking around'. Pilot - 'so how the **** did you see me then?'.

I saw you because the visibility was good and i had just handled your aircraft! The next time i saw you, i was responding to an incident and i didnt see you because you were walking about without a hi-viz on!!! Cant be a smartie when your in hospital or worse!!!

Dont like wearing them myself, but i have seen why we have to wear hi-viz jackets n vests.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Devon9]

Having my own business I wouldn't dream of putting employees at risk.

That said the Hi Viz could well become a lazy (look ive done a risk assessment) statement! rather than properly calculating risks.

There was also an experiment carried out (cant remember where it was published but one of you may have seen it) that if you dress everyone in highly visible clothing the brain learns to adapt to it and reduce the effectiveness. Key is do a proper risk calculation and don't assume Hi-viz will be the lazy answer.

My employees sometimes come out with the most amazing reasons why they shouldn't wear one. Is it so much of problem to actually put one on?

[RRconway]

In situations where machinery is swinging about then yes. But Ive seen those annoying time team beards digging with trowels before with no machinery and wearing such things. No proof whatsoever that hi viz reduces injury on an airfield. In fact its a joke amonst us pilots when they demand hi viz and someone arrives without one. 'Excuse me sir but you need a hi viz jacket here before walking around'. Pilot - 'so how the **** did you see me then?'.

Quite a bold statement there Traveller, there is certainly proof that PPE in particular hi-viz helps to preserve life and limb. Which airfield do you use? Which airline do work for who encourages that behaviour?

Consider this, (and this applied to the archeologists in the trench too).

Hi-viz is compulsory at Heathrow when airside, even if you are only walking to your vehicle.
We spend a lot of time in the cabins of aircraft working defects where we don't really need the hi-viz but if they made an exception for that environment, what are the chances that that individual would bother to don one when he leaves the cabin for the ramp environment, very slim.
Far better to make it a blanket policy and then you will always have it when you enter the more dangerous areas.

The same is probably true for the archeologists, ok the trench may be reasonably safe but they have to leave the trench at some point and if there is heavy plant around then it becomes sensible. By making them wear it all the time it avoids the human nature behaviour of just making a run for it, it'll be alright, it's only over there, it won't take long etc etc.

I will admit it is a pain sometimes, things like ear defenders I hot weather, another layer of clothing in cold weather etc but if your insurance while at work demands it and something awful happens when
You're not wearing it you won't get much support. Surely if only for your family's sake it's worth it?

Jeff.

[Devon9]

I was once asked to wear a hi-viz tabard to sit in a certain place in a certain football stadium. I refused point blank.

And exactly stupid things like that (the mandatory hi viz) that mean people don't take health and safety as seriously as they should when it is actually necessary!

[phreakf4]

only on this forum could Burma spits lead to high-viz!

I was on a speed awareness course last week and the question was asked why do workmen wear high vis jackets. And someone replied "because they didnt work hard enough at school to get a proper job"

I am sure that the architects earning a couple of hundred thousand per year, the engineers installing and commissioning a complex system in a building under construction and many other highly skilled and highly paid specialists and professionals who wear hi-viz as a matter of course would disagree with that.

Incidentally, the fact that you were on a speed awareness course gives another insight into your character and explains some of your vindictive comments on this forum....

[Devon9]

My Gripe with Health safety is (and I by no means wish to tarnish everyone with the same brush as many do a good job making the world safer) But in my eyes, employing the right person means rules are accepted and embraced, but some of the idiots employed in HSE roles, don't help at all and are not taken seriously this leads to resentment, failure to apply the rules and increased risk.

e.g My business is across a quiet road from another business, we sometimes use each others facilities (we work together) on this occasion Mr postman had delivered some of their post to us. Being a good neighbour I thought I would take it across to them.

I had to adorn steel toe caps, protective eye wear and high viz to do that but not a major problem so dressed up like an astronaut I duly deliver the post! on exiting their site, i hear a panting noise behind me, their health and safety man (who sits on their gatehouse) comes up to me. " I watched you cross the road" he said. "yes" I replied. "you crossed diagonally" he said. and then explained by crossing this way I am actually in the road (therefore at risk) for longer.

I explained it is a quiet road, it is long a straight and I can see for feckin miles and I always had night mares as a kid of tufty being run over by an ice cream van

He explained it was his job and he felt he wouldn't be doing is job if he didn't point it out!

I then explained I do the risk assessments for my business and pointed out that the H in health and safety stood for Health and him being 20 stone plus and severely out of breath while catching me to tell me this is not good at all and he really was putting himself at risk of heart problems, diabetes and a multitude of other illnesses, just pointing it out I said. as I feel I wouldn't be acting properly, to which I could see he was offended

He was removed some time after (nothing to do with me) and a new guy with a different attitude was employed and rather than having everyone fight the rules they seem adhered to. Man management is as important as an orange vest..

[Traveller]

Ponder this gents. Try looking at a light aircraft the next time you are at the airfield. What did you see first, the crappy dim flashing red light or the plane itself? Strobes? Only used on runway and in the air.

And then ask yourselves why we need to wear hi viz on a big open field where the noisy little aircraft stand out and travel around at not much more than walking pace. Yet in the high street or walking by an A or B road with vehicles passing at much higher speeds and all noise 'merged into one', we don't.

Yes it makes you stand out perhaps more but in the context and grand scheme of things where its applied its utter tosh.

Travel around corner and greeted by horse rider. Did you see the day glo first or the huge animal? List is endless.

[Devon9]

Ponder this gents. Try looking at a light aircraft the next time you are at the airfield. What did you see first, the crappy dim flashing red light or the plane itself? Strobes? Only used on runway and in the air.

And then ask yourselves why we need to wear hi viz on a big open field where the noisy little aircraft stand out and travel around at not much more than walking pace.

Because some dick will still walk in front of the propeller, lose an arm and try and try to blame everyone but himself

[DerekF]

Ponder this gents. Try looking at a light aircraft the next time you are at the airfield. What did you see first, the crappy dim flashing red light or the plane itself? Strobes? Only used on runway and in the air. And then ask yourselves why we need to wear hi viz on a big open field where the noisy little aircraft stand out and travel around at not much more than walking pace. Yet in the high street or walking by an A or B road with vehicles passing at much higher speeds and all noise 'merged into one', we don't.

You seem to have utterly missed the point of people on airfields wearing hi-vis. The lights on aircraft and high vis clothing are to make aircraft or wearer visible to everyone - not simply those on foot. There may be people with ear defenders on, drivers in vehicles or pilots in other aircraft. It be dark or in poor visibility. Is the visibility out of aircraft on ground or from vehicles so good that everyone and everything is clearly visible? No, far from it.

Yes it makes you stand out perhaps more but in the context and grand scheme of things where its applied its utter tosh.

Travel around corner and greeted by horse rider. Did you see the day glo first or the huge animal? List is endless.

That rather depends doesn't it? Whether you are in a car or on foot it may be dark, poor visibility. That's the point of lights and of subsequently of high vis clothing, anything that gives you an increased chance of being seen. I assume you put your lights on whatever aircraft you fly to make sure you can be seen. Same thing. From your reply you must be a GA pilot but seem to have a rather cavalier attitude to safety.If you operated on a commercial basis you would see the point of increasing your chances of being seen.

[aceyone]

As an ex-train driver I can assure you that it's a hell of a lot easier to see track workers etc wearing vests from a distance and therefore a warning blast of the horn can be given much earlier than otherwise,enabling them to clear the track early rather than in a last minute panic ! especially in poor light !

[RRconway]

Ponder this gents. Try looking at a light aircraft the next time you are at the airfield. What did you see first, the crappy dim flashing red light or the plane itself? Strobes? Only used on runway and in the air.

In the day maybe, but what about at night or in reduced viz conditions.

And then ask yourselves why we need to wear hi viz on a big open field where the noisy little aircraft stand out and travel around at not much more than walking pace. Yet in the high street or walking by an A or B road with vehicles passing at much higher speeds and all noise 'merged into one', we don't.

Because these little aircraft are being controlled by a person whose attention may be split between watching where he us going, checking his instruments, talking to the tower or avoiding other aircraft or airfield vehicles and may need all the help he can get to spot vulnerable personnel around him.
My recollection of flying in a light aircraft is that they frequently have bigger blind areas than many cars, and given that they produce thrust behind them it would be prudent if any personnel were highlighted to the pilot.
In addition many airfields, including yours I imagine have vehicles and ground equipment manoeuvring, possibly not always on designated roadways and not always where you might expect. If ground personnel are wearing ear defenders they may not hear them coming so being visible is doubly important surely?[/quote]

Yes it makes you stand out perhaps more but in the context and grand scheme of things where its applied its utter tosh.

Sometimes yes, Dan in the stadium for example, but in an airfield, no.

Travel around corner and greeted by horse rider. Did you see the day glo first or the huge animal? List is endless.

Don't know, what was the light like?

Other than not wanting to do, can you really have a good reason not to wear one on an airfield?

Jeff.

[yannyfoxx]

Interesting, although not totally optimistic addition to the plethora of articles about the hunt...

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/nation ... -born.html

[ericbee123]

I wear Hi-Viz clothing while sea fishing, not so that people can see me enjoying myself, but in case the situation arises where I need to be seen -- I won't be enjoying myself then, I will be hoping to be seen to be rescued.

Hi-Viz in everyday life, while everything is going right, seems a waste of time, you will still not see me on my push-bike without a hi-viz vest on, again, it's not there for the nice times or my benefit, it's there for others and for when I am about to have a very bad time ( otherwise ).

Even in football grounds, I can see why people need to wear Hi-viz, in some instances ( not sat in the middle of hospitality for example ) so other people can find them quickly when they are having a bad time -- in the case of stewards or responders, or if you are up a gantry somewhere and you need help, people can see you to help, you'd be a bit 'hacked off' if there was a fire and everyone left or got rescued, but nobody could see you up there in your black SAS outfit.

Anyway -- the BEST time for Orange Hi-Viz at football grounds is when Blackpool FC are playing there, all that Tangerine Day-Glo makes us look like we have even more support at away grounds

[Traveller]

Im still trying to work out how, sat in my plane with engine running, Im the one who is supposed to spot Mr HiViz and suddenly turn my ineffective nose wheel steering away from him or kill the engine. Is it not for him to see me? In fact how come aircraft aren't hi viz so these f wits see them?

As for those rail workers mentioned above, they are sat on the bank smoking and discussing why their colleague got sacked for inneffective performance and what the unions can do about it. So a train can pass safely by.......

[RRconway]

Im still trying to work out how, sat in my plane with engine running, Im the one who is supposed to spot Mr HiViz and suddenly turn my ineffective nose wheel steering away from him or kill the engine. Is it not for him to see me? In fact how come aircraft aren't hi viz so these f wits see them?

As for those rail workers mentioned above, they are sat on the bank smoking and discussing why their colleague got sacked for inneffective performance and what the unions can do about it. So a train can pass safely by.......

You know, several people including me have tried to explain why and under what circumstances people need to wear hi-viz on an airfield and why on occasions the emphasis may be on you as a pilot to make sure you can see them.
If for whatever reason you are operating an aeroplane that you cannot adequately control to take avoiding action of any kind whether it be turning, stopping or cutting the engine perhaps someone should be taking an interest in you and your ability or attitude towards safety and aircraft operation.
I don't know you from Adam, but your attitude towards safety is truelly alarming.

In addition to that, your reliance on falling back on abusive name calling (albeit with missing letters to try and mask it) and your general abusive and derogatory comments towards other workers (airfield personnel, railway workers and archeaologists) prove you have no valid argument or reason to back up your ill thought out comments.

I for one will not continue to discuss anything with someone who sinks to such tactics.

[Traveller]

LOL! 25 years flying and I have never needed to 'see' someone on the ground to avoid them. RAC/AA/Police motorway patrol, yes, wear HiViz. Bloke on airfield with perfect sight and hearing who should be looking for horrible nasty whirly props at 125db and Baldrick and co in a trench in Somerset with one JCB whose driver's responsibility is to watch for others...........sorry just dont buy it.

[Traveller]

And by the way, take a trial lesson and try and steer a Cessna at taxi speed then you will understand what complete nonsense it is thinking one can steer away from a muppet on an airfield who has put himself in immediate danger.

[Maisie]

Have they dug up loads of high-viz jackets or something? I just come on here to see if any Spitfires have been found but can't see no mention!!

[DerekF]

So far replies to this have been split pretty evenly and it looks to me like those who work in aviation professionally understand the necessity to wear hi-vis clothing.

Traveller, as RRconway says, your attitude to airfield safety is worrying.

In fact, your attitude to other workers is pretty suspect as well.

[vulcan558]

So far replies to this have been split pretty evenly and it looks to me like those who work in aviation professionally understand the necessity to wear hi-vis clothing.

Traveller, as RRconway says, your attitude to airfield safety is worrying.

In fact, your attitude to other workers is pretty suspect as well.

Airfield safety, quote is that the airfield on a carrier is the most dangerous work place going, thou I never see any Hi viz green tops, just diffrent colors to denote different roles.?

[RRconway]

So far replies to this have been split pretty evenly and it looks to me like those who work in aviation professionally understand the necessity to wear hi-vis clothing.

Traveller, as RRconway says, your attitude to airfield safety is worrying.

In fact, your attitude to other workers is pretty suspect as well.

Airfield safety, quote is that the airfield on a carrier is the most dangerous work place going, thou I never see any Hi viz green tops, just diffrent colors to denote different roles.?

I would imagine there are very specific reasons for this particular anomaly. Everywhere else that the military interact with aircraft I recall seeing hi-viz.
I know the deck crews wear coloured tops as you state. Presumably hi-viz would detract from their effect, which is I believe to identify different roles and therefore where the personnel are allowed to be?

H&S is otherwise very much in evidence in a carrier deck. Reflective strips in clothing, helmets, ear defenders and protective eye wear etc.
Cheers,
Jeff.

[ArabJazzie]

And by the way, take a trial lesson and try and steer a Cessna at taxi speed then you will understand what complete nonsense it is thinking one can steer away from a muppet on an airfield who has put himself in immediate danger.

Used to be a light aircraft engineer for a company with a large fleet of Cessnas, so your move!

In this day and age, you get caught out and you are not wearing a Hi-viz, then an innocent person who might have seen you will have to deal with whatever happened, and you or your family dont get a payout.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[ericbee123]

I've never thought the reason personnel at large airports, say Manchester, wear hi-viz is so that 747 pilots can steer round them, but more because of refuelling trucks, baggage trucks and other various road traffic, it's like crossing a very busy road sometimes and you need 'lolly-pop' people to stop passengers and let trucks pass, etc, when they have to walk from/to an aircraft.

At smaller airfields, there are still a number of vehicles driving around, these are why you need hi-viz, to avoid getting hit by a car that you can't hear above the noise of an aircraft you can see.

As for Aircraft Carriers, there isn't a lot of vehicular traffic, you aren't going to get an F-18 landing or taking off taking avoiding action, so you just have to worry about people walking into people, so you don't need hi-viz.

Makes sense to me anyway.

[F-86]

LOL! 25 years flying and I have never needed to 'see' someone on the ground to avoid them. RAC/AA/Police motorway patrol, yes, wear HiViz. Bloke on airfield with perfect sight and hearing who should be looking for horrible nasty whirly props at 125db and Baldrick and co in a trench in Somerset with one JCB whose driver's responsibility is to watch for others...........sorry just dont buy it.

So what do you know about driving excavators then? How many categories do you hold on your CPCS card. I have worked in those situations before, many of those 'Baldrick and Co' aren't really aware of the real dangers of excavators. When you are driving a 'JCB' (other better brands are available) there are so many things to watch for even without the other workers around the machine. People don't just stay in one place, they walk around and by wearing hi-viz clothing make them a lot easier to spot. Just the other day another worker took a short cut down the side of a machine I was operating, the only reason I saw him was that I saw something orange flash past the camera so I stopped slewing. So yes his Hi-viz saved him from severe injuries or death.