"Dani" Star of the Stars in Souda Bay

[TonyO]

tonycretan

Happy to respond to your statement. I will just point out that details of 380 Mira's role in Unified Protector only came out after the war, indeed I was one of the first non-Greek journalists to write about it June 2012, you can see my story here: http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/digit ... force-out/

But at the time, when Hans visited the base, the HAF were not known to be actively supporting the mission, and I am not going to go back and correct all my posts based on what we know now.

Having said that, as one of the largest air arms in Europe, isn't it a little off that it didn't play more of a role? The Qatari Air Force, flew half their entire fighter fleet to Greece to take part, but all Greece provided in the air was the EMB-145. Regardless of austerity, all of the European countries should have played more of a role, in particular Germany and Poland - with the most advanced F-16s in Europe.

[bigcrow]

I've only just caught this set, fantastic set of pictures Hans. Great to see Souda operational, flew out of there on a C-2 to the Ike, so brings back a lot of happy memories...

[Frank B]

Hell of a set Hans.
Really, really well done.
See you next year, along a fence, somewhere.
F.

[tonycretan]

tonycretan

Happy to respond to your statement. I will just point out that details of 380 Mira's role in Unified Protector only came out after the war, indeed I was one of the first non-Greek journalists to write about it June 2012, you can see my story here: http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/digit ... force-out/

But at the time, when Hans visited the base, the HAF were not known to be actively supporting the mission, and I am not going to go back and correct all my posts based on what we know now.

Having said that, as one of the largest air arms in Europe, isn't it a little off that it didn't play more of a role? The Qatari Air Force, flew half their entire fighter fleet to Greece to take part, but all Greece provided in the air was the EMB-145. Regardless of austerity, all of the European countries should have played more of a role, in particular Germany and Poland - with the most advanced F-16s in Europe.

Ηellas despite the fact that was and still is encountering a huge financial crisis, has provided EMB-145 AEW&C as airborne assets,and ALL it's personnel for the Operation...needless to say without a single euro as a "compensation" for the countless working hours!!!!! Just for the record (based on personal experience) the Pakistani servants working for the Qatari officers were paid 200 euros per day....i was ready to apply for a job!!!!
We didn't even get the campaign medal other participants were awarded!!! How is that for a story?
What if Hellas choosed NOT to offer it's Bases, personell, airspace etc ? Where would NATO go?....turkey?????? Ask the Americans...i am sure they have some nice stories to tell you about the long hours they had to fly AROUND turkey's airspace!!!
Now about Qatar and it's "contribution.....i am not naive to believe they did it for the "cause"...are you?
Do you see the shade shelters for the French and Qatari fighters? They were gone as soon as the operation ended! We didn't get to keep them as you probably think. Hospital in Hellas had provided medical treatment to the wounded Libyans....did someone pay for all that? NOOOOOOOOOOO, some millions of euros are yet to be collected!!
I call all the above, a HUGE CONTRIBUTION way above and beyond Hellas fair share and i am so very sorry that you still don't see that.
I would like to apologize for my "poor" English and i hope i did not offend anyone, i only wanted to set the record straight.
One last thing and i rest my case, do you have any idea how "busy" Hellenic Air Force is by defending every single day our airspace?
Kind regards,
Tonycretan....from Crete
P.S. I met Hans in Souda Bay.

[TonyO]

These operations are not about making money.

For the countries which host forces, Greece is obliged to do it as a NATO member, unless it chooses not to play a role. Do you think the UK, Spain, France got paid to conduct these operations, no they did it because civilians were at risk in Libya, or at least that is what the politicians will tell you. I would suggest that had we let Libya just carry, Syria-style, thousands of refugees would be showing on the shores of the Pelopenesse and Crete and the cost to Greece would be significantly higher

We will not see eye-to-eye on whether Greece did its fair share. As a British taxpayer, I would say the UK went above and beyond what is required for the Libyan operation given we also have a major operation in Afghanistan. Despite the austerity Greece still has one of the most potent air forces in Europe, with four fighter types, 259 front-line combat aircraft in total according to the Milavia Press orbat, not one type has been retired since the economic crisis and not one of those fighters was assigned to the Libya operation.

[tonycretan]

These operations are not about making money.

For the countries which host forces, Greece is obliged to do it as a NATO member, unless it chooses not to play a role. Do you think the UK, Spain, France got paid to conduct these operations, no they did it because civilians were at risk in Libya, or at least that is what the politicians will tell you. I would suggest that had we let Libya just carry, Syria-style, thousands of refugees would be showing on the shores of the Pelopenesse and Crete and the cost to Greece would be significantly higher

We will not see eye-to-eye on whether Greece did its fair share. As a British taxpayer, I would say the UK went above and beyond what is required for the Libyan operation given we also have a major operation in Afghanistan. Despite the austerity Greece still has one of the most potent air forces in Europe, with four fighter types, 259 front-line combat aircraft in total according to the Milavia Press orbat, not one type has been retired since the economic crisis and not one of those fighters was assigned to the Libya operation.

UK chooses to maintain a Global Power status, same like the French and (unfortunately for the third time) German governments.
Do you think it is fair for the Greek taxpayers to pay for that "dream" ?
I only wished that the above mentioned governments would have shown the same sense of "sensitivity" and "humanism" when the Cypriots were slaughtered by an invading army!!! For nearly 30 years the 45% of the sovereign country of Cyprus is under occupation!!!! No one has done anything to
change that!
Now about the fact that we haven't retire a single type of fighters due to the financial crisis.....Hellas is "blessed" to be situated among "peace loving" neighbors...we simply can't afford to loose a single plane!!! Maybe that is what some people (countries) want, to have a new Cyprus!!
Frankly we do NOT expect from our NATO allies to run for help.....what do you think?
The fact that the fighters were not assigned to the Libya operation is because they were way too busy elsewhere....over the Aegean! How difficult is that to understand????
Anyway, i feel the need to apologize to the people who are members of this forum for keep on answering to this "debate".
Let's just agree that we disagree

[FarnboroJohn]

This is not really my period of history.

However, it is extensively written up and even a quick survey shows the sequence of events to be:

- a coup against the Greek Cypriot government headed by Makarios, sponsored by the Greek military junta, which installed a rabidly anti-Turk replacement; (Makarios was rescued by the RAF using in sequence a Whirlwind, Argosy and finally a Comet to extract him to London). One has to wonder if this Greek-initiated coup was what led to

- a pre-emptive small Turkish invasion to defend its ethnic population;

- a subsequent larger invasion characterised by atrocities and ethnic cleansing by both sides.

The UK was prevented by the USA from intervening to prevent the invasions, which it had managed to do on more than one previous occasion (utilising the mighty Avro Shackleton).

Before you criticise the UK's performance in Cyprus and its commitment to keeping peace in the area, it would be wise to avail yourself of the facts.

Also, if Greece is unable to get along with any of its neighbours, maybe its not them that is the problem?

John

[tonycretan]

This is not really my period of history.

However, it is extensively written up and even a quick survey shows the sequence of events to be:

- a coup against the Greek Cypriot government headed by Makarios, sponsored by the Greek military junta, which installed a rabidly anti-Turk replacement; (Makarios was rescued by the RAF using in sequence a Whirlwind, Argosy and finally a Comet to extract him to London). One has to wonder if this Greek-initiated coup was what led to

- a pre-emptive small Turkish invasion to defend its ethnic population;

- a subsequent larger invasion characterised by atrocities and ethnic cleansing by both sides.

The UK was prevented by the USA from intervening to prevent the invasions, which it had managed to do on more than one previous occasion (utilising the mighty Avro Shackleton).

Before you criticise the UK's performance in Cyprus and its commitment to keeping peace in the area, it would be wise to avail yourself of the facts.

Also, if Greece is unable to get along with any of its neighbours, maybe its not them that is the problem?

John

Thank you for the "amusing" History lessons !!!
You were about to say that there was a 'genocide" committed by the Greek Cypriots and the turkish armed forces helped to resolve the situation!!!!
Who says that there were atrocities committed by both sides, so far the documented facts show that it was unilateral! Do you have any hidden documents to share with us?
This is a very "strange" way to approach the undisputed fact that the 45% of Cyprus is under turkish occupation.
Indeed there was a coup against the Greek Cypriot government headed by Makarios....Indeed there were some crimes committed by both sides. Does this means that another country has the right to INVADE!!!!! Does this justify the occupation of a sovereign country for 30 years!!!
I do have every moral right to criticize the UK's performance in Cyprus based on FACTS!!!
Now it is my turn to ask you not to criticize Greece's relations with it's neighbors because clearly you do not have a clue of what is going on in the region.
Turkey wants half if not all the Aegean, Thrace, Crete etc, wants to have the full authority on the FIR, to control maritime activities and of course all the gas and petrol resources of Greece. All the above against every International law! Turkey is dreaming of the rebirth of the ottoman empire and unfortunately has found "allies" from "up north" !
Fyrom (not Macedonia as some of you may say showing that you know nothing about history) claims that their borders are extended as far as Preveza!! Same with Albania!! What does Greece asks from it's neighbors? Not a single meter of foreign soil !!! We have shown full respect of the International Laws and Treaties, unfortunately that was translated as weakness!
Tell me if you know anything different, if Greece is asking anything more than what it is given to her by the International Treaties and if it is acting against the International laws. We have a very nice piece of land that unfortunately everybody wants to have, that is our bless and our curse!
P.S. Since you are so well aware of the geopolitics of the region ask your self, does turkey, albania or fyrom have good relations with any of their neighbors?

[boff180]

Guys,

If you want to discuss Greek-Turk-UK-NATO geopolitics please do so in the Off Topic section.

Thanks

Andy

[tonycretan]

Guys,

If you want to discuss Greek-Turk-UK-NATO geopolitics please do so in the Off Topic section.

Thanks

Andy

My apologies Andy, you are right.
My only excuse is that sometimes there are things you read that should not be left unanswered. Truth is twisted so that minds and opinions are shaped based on wrong ground.
My sincere apologies,
Tonycretan

P.S. If the U.N. couldn't solve the problem (as always) how can i ?

[FarnboroJohn]

My apologies also, I tend to forget that those closest to the action can be a bit passionate in considering historical matters.

Merry Christmas Tony

John

[tonycretan]

My apologies also, I tend to forget that those closest to the action can be a bit passionate in considering historical matters.

Merry Christmas Tony

John

Dear John,
Please don't get me wrong, i have nothing against you or the U.K.
I have many friends from all over the world, trust me i am open minded and of course an aviation enthusiast.

I wish to you, your family and to everybody on this forum

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR

Cheers,
Tony