Where has XH558 thread gone?

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
Locked
User avatar
Skyflash
UKAR Staff
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:51 pm
Location: Musselburgh, nr Edinburgh

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skyflash »

Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...
Posting comments on an aviation-related chatroom, are ya? Looks like it an' all...

Gregg
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2011, 10:55 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Gregg »

It's not impossible, just not very likely.

Thoughtful_Flyer
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri 12 Sep 2008, 8:32 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


Perfectly possible but how would you get it there?

Given that it is (apparently) not possible to dismantle, transport by road and reassemble safely even into taxiing condition at an alternative UK venue.

User avatar
CJS
Posts: 7608
Joined: Thu 15 Jul 2010, 3:30 pm
Location: Hogwarts

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by CJS »

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


Perfectly possible but how would you get it there?

Given that it is (apparently) not possible to dismantle, transport by road and reassemble safely even into taxiing condition at an alternative UK venue.


Perfectly possible wasn't the question though.

'Any realistic prospect'?

I think we all know the answer to that.
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:Perfectly possible but how would you get it there?

Given that it is (apparently) not possible to dismantle, transport by road and reassemble safely even into taxiing condition at an alternative UK venue.

Flog it to the Americans.....de-register it from the UK register....register it on the North American register ( is N-XH558 available ? :biggrin: )....get it inspected & certificated by the FAA....get an exemption certificate from the CAA ( if it's needed ) which would allow it to be flown in the UK for a month....then simply fly it out.
Job's a good-un. :up:

Or is that too simplistic ?
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

vulcan558
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat 06 Oct 2012, 9:45 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Well if you do not pay your oem's. Marshalls springs to mind, be arrogant to Rolls Royce.
Then they will take your toy away from you.

Yes I think she could fly again, But not under its current owners.
The airframe is good the Engines thou low on hours, the limit from rolls could be extended.
They gave them a low cycle count from the start.

Still reckon a ferry flight is very possible with the right people.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

vulcan558 wrote:The airframe is good the Engines though low on hours, the limit from rolls could be extended.

If it went to America, it would operate under FAA regulations not CAA......so would it not be the case that the ridiculously low limit RR put on the engines wouldn't apply ?
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

vulcan558
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat 06 Oct 2012, 9:45 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

sooty655 wrote:
Xm657 wrote:558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition .......


That depends what you want to do with it. It is certainly the Vulcan in the best flying condition, but not as a museum piece. The top deck has modern flying instruments, and the rear cockpit is just a sheet or two of matt black aluminium. There is no H2S scanner or ECM equipment installed. Anyone trying to sell visits to XH558 as an authentic experience of a service Vulcan would be pushing the boundaries of the trade descriptions act. Most of the museum Vulcans are far more complete, and (for example) XM655 shows off most of the interesting bits pretty well every weekend. Add to that the access problems of a major airport, and XH558 seems to me to only be attractive as scrap. :sad:

Xm657 wrote:655 is still owned by the airfield owners. Correct me if I'm wrong!


You are correct.

XM655 is the best one out there, one of the last and out of the 3 running Vulcans she is the most powerful.
Of the 3 live Vulcans. Original in side and out. Open to the public every weekend.
Think she cost £1 if you want to know her value.

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4404
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Another point re the valuation of the airframe, it must make a difference re the ability of the charity to borrow funds. Many loans use a fixed asset as collateral. If the airframe was worth that figure (we know its not) it opens up the opportunity for loans (to start building work for example)

So the official figures give the impression that the charity is in a strong position in this area where the reality is very different. I'm trying to work out the motivation for valuing the airframe so highly rather than marking it down at around £6,000.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

User avatar
sooty655
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon 23 Feb 2009, 4:53 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by sooty655 »

vulcan558 wrote:XM655 is the best one out there, one of the last and out of the 3 running Vulcans she is the most powerful.
Of the 3 live Vulcans. Original in side and out. Open to the public every weekend.
Think she cost £1 if you want to know her value.

Thanks for that, vulcan558. :smile: :smile: We do our best, with zero full-time staff, zero part-time staff and zero contractors.
We like to think that XM655 is the most powerful, the most complete, the most accessible and the most attractive Avro Vulcan. We accept that "most attractive" is subjective, but in our view you don't polish camo. :wink:

I guess in reality XM655 cost £1 plus the outstanding parking fees, but certainly not the mega-valuation used elsewhere.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

From today's newsletter :
We can confirm that the application for Planning Permission for the New Heritage Hangar has been submitted to Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council, with the support of Doncaster Sheffield Airport, RG Group, Wordsworth Construction Services, Hadfield Cawkwell Davidson and Tier Consult.
(snip)
The process to a decision, and given the work put into the application we expect approval, can take over 10 weeks, but we will keep you updated in these newsletters.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

Skymonster
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 2009, 2:21 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Brevet Cable wrote:From today's newsletter :
We can confirm that the application for Planning Permission for the New Heritage Hangar has been submitted to Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council.


I wonder how long it'll be until it appears on the Doncaster Council planning portal then - its not on there yet.

Brevet Cable wrote:From today's newsletter :
The process to a decision, and given the work put into the application we expect approval, can take over 10 weeks, but we will keep you updated in these newsletters.


So, they do not even expect to get approval until the end of November - for a hangar that they originally said would be completed around the end of the year. To regain some trust, they need to explain WHY it has [unanticipatedly] taken so long to get to this stage. It seems like 558 will almost certainly be outside for the entire winter now.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Skymonster wrote:I wonder how long it'll be until it appears on the Doncaster Council planning portal then - its not on there yet.

The bit I snipped out :
Application Ref PP-06273068v1
Applicant: Mr David Dixon, RG Group
Agent: Mr Leigh Brown, Hadfield Cawkwell Davidson Date of submission: 12:13 on 12 September 2017

Your Local Planning Authority, Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council has received your online Full planning permission application and will now validate it within their normal work flow and timescales.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

User avatar
MicrolightDriver
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:23 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Good newts that the planning permission has gone in, and that so much collaborative work with the airport and others has gone into the proposal.

Hopefully a positive response and some further progress to discuss in due course.

Georgeconna
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed 30 May 2012, 2:38 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Georgeconna »

Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


If you say it enough times this scrapping festish Dano has may just come true.
Cheers

George

Zero shows for 2018 Giving in a Rest.

User avatar
NAM Updater
Posts: 2832
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 7:06 am
Location: Notts / Lincs border
Contact:

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by NAM Updater »

MicrolightDriver wrote:Good newts that the planning permission has gone in .......

Hope they don't find any of those creatures, as it would slow things up on the environmental impact front! :whistle:
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
http://newarkairmuseum.org

User avatar
Dan O'Hagan
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed 13 Apr 2016, 6:05 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Georgeconna wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


If you say it enough times this scrapping festish Dano has may just come true.


What, pray tell, is a "festish"?

If you're going to try and insult me, the effect is rather lost when you can't even manage to spell the insult correctly.

As for the planning permission, rather coincidental how this happens in the week that the enthusiast community starts asking some difficult questions about the latest accounts, and just what the staff are doing to earn the money they continue to make from the charitable donations...

JetMan
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat 11 Mar 2017, 12:07 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by JetMan »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Georgeconna wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


If you say it enough times this scrapping festish Dano has may just come true.


What, pray tell, is a "festish"?

If you're going to try and insult me, the effect is rather lost when you can't even manage to spell the insult correctly.

As for the planning permission, rather coincidental how this happens in the week that the enthusiast community starts asking some difficult questions about the latest accounts, and just what the staff are doing to earn the money they continue to make from the charitable donations...


What are you suggesting by that Dan? Are you saying that the planning permission has been ready to go in for a while, but they have just been waiting to use it as a distraction? Somehow I think that may be another of your fantasy ideas.....

XR219
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 8:57 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
As for the planning permission, rather coincidental how this happens in the week that the enthusiast community starts asking some difficult questions about the latest accounts, and just what the staff are doing to earn the money they continue to make from the charitable donations...



I can assure you it is completely coincidental. If we’d been really clever, we’d have applied in the same week that the accounts were published….
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)

Reds Rolling
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu 12 Sep 2013, 10:50 am

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

No, as it didn't go to Bruntingthorpe. :whistle:

Neverfuel
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat 29 Oct 2016, 7:33 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Georgeconna wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


If you say it enough times this scrapping festish Dano has may just come true.


What, pray tell, is a "festish"?

If you're going to try and insult me, the effect is rather lost when you can't even manage to spell the insult correctly.

As for the planning permission, rather coincidental how this happens in the week that the enthusiast community starts asking some difficult questions about the latest accounts, and just what the staff are doing to earn the money they continue to make from the charitable donations...


Goodness Dan - haven't you got feisty in my absence - cutting up 558, attacks on forum members - not to mention trying to claim the last years accounts are crooked. Now there is some positive news, any chance of discussing it like adults, or are you persisting in your current mood? I'm sure there are many readers who would like to hear both sides of a reasoned argument. Not just your take on things :smile:

User avatar
Dan O'Hagan
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed 13 Apr 2016, 6:05 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Neverfuel wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Georgeconna wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Is there any realistic prospect of 558 flying again?

I mean not in the UK, obviously, but as a more palatable alternative to Dan's rather apocalyptic 'chop up the airframe' mantra, is there any chance that it could be operated in the US, for example, where it would be sure to be an enormous hit on their thriving warbird scene?

I'm just worried that Dan might in fact be right... perhaps I'm clutching at straws but all things considered I'd, ah, rather not see it chopped up for scrap...


If you say it enough times this scrapping festish Dano has may just come true.


What, pray tell, is a "festish"?

If you're going to try and insult me, the effect is rather lost when you can't even manage to spell the insult correctly.

As for the planning permission, rather coincidental how this happens in the week that the enthusiast community starts asking some difficult questions about the latest accounts, and just what the staff are doing to earn the money they continue to make from the charitable donations...


Goodness Dan - haven't you got feisty in my absence - cutting up 558, attacks on forum members - not to mention trying to claim the last years accounts are crooked. Now there is some positive news, any chance of discussing it like adults, or are you persisting in your current mood? I'm sure there are many readers who would like to hear both sides of a reasoned argument. Not just your take on things :smile:


I've not once said that the accounts are "crooked". Take that back. Or prove me wrong.

Neverfuel
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat 29 Oct 2016, 7:33 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
BillRamsey wrote:Dan/Gents, I thought I explained once. Only one of the (then) current Aircrew remained employed after February 2016. Period. None of the six who became redundant were paid anything after October 2015. Quite right, I will not discuss what we were paid when 558 was flying (any more than I expect most on here to use their real names or tell me their occupation and salary). I will say this, £1k per day is ludicrous. Also, we were paid a daily flying rate. Many of the sorties required days of (unpaid) planning and coordination - I guess the most complicated for me was probably what became called The Three Sisters - that took me the best part of two (unpaid) weeks to arrange - CAA/MAA/ RAF - you get the picture! The photochases, formations, tours etc all took a lot of unpaid time. So, whatever we were paid, I am happy we provided good value.

I hope this sheds a bit of light once more. I urge you to take a look at the People's Mosquito and get behind a project which is part of the future for our hobby if we all get behind it.

Bill Ramsey


The one retained will have been Martin Withers, one assumes.

Quite a big error to make on the accounts though, which quite clearly states:

The Trust had 19 full-time employees and 5 part-time employees (including 9 aircrew) as at 31 October 2016, plus a number of contractors and consultants.


How on earth do the official accounts, filed with the authorities, come up with NINE aircrew full/part-time at 31/10/2016?


Dan - this is a mild one - do I need to go back and post the rest?

You didn't answer my question?

User avatar
Dan O'Hagan
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed 13 Apr 2016, 6:05 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

You can't see that it's a valid question? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Bill Ramsey himself has questioned the figure of aircrew shown in the accounts too.

That's not saying "crooked". It's saying that the accounts don't make sense. "Crooked" implies deliberate cooking of the books.

So, again, take it back.

Xm657
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat 27 Aug 2016, 6:41 pm

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Much as you'd like this thread to go away RR, it is bringing up valid and important points and holding VttTS to account, and why not: they spend public money and are custodians of a much loved "people's" aircraft, so should be prepared to justify their actions and take criticism. If you don't like what you read here, you have the rest of the internet to enjoy!

It is good to hear the planning permission has finally gone in and the dream is still alive, but a hell of a long way to go yet. Hopefully the VttTS can take some constructive criticism and slash their wage bill to near zero, or I'm afraid if planning permission is granted it will be all academic anyway as there will be nothing to pay the rent with.

Interesting what vulcan558 says above regarding not paying Marshalls and being arrogant to RR, which possibly led to the withdrawal of technical support. Is this just your opinion or do have any even anecdotal evidence of this? If it is true that VttTS mismanaged the relationship with the OEMs towards the end which led to a premature end to flying, that really is poor and massively disappointing. I do recall Mr Pleming saying 558 had between two and seven years flying hours left in her if the OEM support had been there. With regard to further flying taking place, I think a winter dormant outdoors, will make that mountain even higher, not that I personally believe its even possible anyway. And don't forget Roy Jacobsen got nowhere trying to register 655 and 426 with the FAA in the 80s, so attractive as it might seem, going to the US isn't a viable way to fly her either.

Locked