Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Xm657 wrote:For goodness sake RR, are you actually serious or just trolling this thread hoping to stir a reaction and get it taken down again? Well you got me to bite so

Actually I wasn't trolling at all on this occasion, but thanks for the bite anyway. :wink:

Xm657 wrote:the quite obvious point (although not to you) was that since all the engineers were being paid and had nothing to do they might as well have done something useful like putting the old instruments back in.

You're just assuming that they had nothing to do, they could well have been busy doing other more important stuff. I don't know what was going on, but then neither do you.

Xm657 wrote:But again the VttST seem to do the opposite of common sense. Common sense would have been to let the engineers and all the other paid hangers on go once flying was over.

Yes, but VttS seemed to have other 'big' ideas that meant they didn't.

Xm657 wrote:According to you it wasn't a priority, so begs the question, what was the priority for the engineering team that warranted them being employed until the end of 2016.

Read my post again properly. I said 'Perhaps there's no other reason than it's simply not a priority right now? '. At least argue with things I've actually said and not things you 'think' I've said.

Xm657 wrote:Seems to me they were being retained for the eventual Canberra restoration but being paid from money that could have been set aside for 558's future (and was donated for that purpose).

You're probably correct.

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sooty655
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by sooty655 »

Xm657 wrote:
starbuck wrote:A bit out of left field admittedly, but something I have always wondered was how much compatibility and similarity there was between a RR Spey or Olympus fitted to various RN ships and their aviation namesakes?


Or indeed the marine version of the Olympus which even has the same model number 202 as the type fitted to 558; and can be/is overhauled by a company in Aberdeen. The answer I've heard about this is the marine and industrial versions use much heavier materials and parts and are assembled to different standards as they obviously never leave the ground. A great deal of investigating was done by Vulcan to the Sky to find a path to overhauling engines but sadly only the 8 zero houred units David Walton bought from the RAF were or ever will be allowed to fly again. RR will not entertain rebuilding even if the aviation spec parts to do so existed - they were last manufactured in the 1970s.


The marine versions of the Olympus are either 2013s or 2017s. The ones you are referring to are the second generation industrial variant 2020 (generally known as "twentytwenty") used for both onshore and offshore power generation. All the different industrial and marine versions are based on the aero 201. The 202 as fitted to XH558 is simply a 201 with the rapid start system added. However, the industrial and marine engines have different turbines, bigger thrust bearings, different oil, fuel and air systems, and even the geometrically identical components often use different materials to minimise corrosion when weight is less of a consideration.

In the case of the Spey, the difference is greater. The aero Spey is a by-pass engine, which is no good for driving an additional turbine, so for the marine version the LP compressor is cut down to make a twin spool pure jet.

Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Xm657 wrote:Absolutely bernarde. Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting the engineers were lazy twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do, I'm sure they did the best they could with the situation, e.g. the build a plane project. They and 558 are the victims in this, loosing their jobs just before xmas. It wasn't such a crazy idea that Mr Pleming wanted to keep the team together having built up a unique set of skilled engineers capable of flying cold war jets. However, as time and events proved, post Vulcan, there just wasn't the opportunity to do it on the same scale as before, and Mr Pleming should have realised that. It was wrong to keep everyone on after 2015 on such a ambitious punt to operate a Canberra: it gave them false hope. What is worse now though, are all the paid managers and administrators who still seem to be sucking the Vulcan dry.

If the old instruments are every to be reinstalled, it sounds like Neverfuel would be the ideal person to do it, he's ready and waiting to volunteer, and has the skills. I'm sure there are plenty of other Vulcan fans in Doncaster who could man the web shop in their spare time etc.


Thank you Xm657 for your compliment - but I think that wiring looms would be gone and I would need a Scopy to work with to get any part of the NBS working. Much too big a task for me, And I am currently committed to a couple of other projects, trying to make severed cockpits come back to life again!

Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

I just need an invite .....

Although, I have a proper job, that pays proper money! :lol:

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starbuck
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by starbuck »

sooty655 wrote:
Xm657 wrote:
starbuck wrote:A bit out of left field admittedly, but something I have always wondered was how much compatibility and similarity there was between a RR Spey or Olympus fitted to various RN ships and their aviation namesakes?


Or indeed the marine version of the Olympus which even has the same model number 202 as the type fitted to 558; and can be/is overhauled by a company in Aberdeen. The answer I've heard about this is the marine and industrial versions use much heavier materials and parts and are assembled to different standards as they obviously never leave the ground. A great deal of investigating was done by Vulcan to the Sky to find a path to overhauling engines but sadly only the 8 zero houred units David Walton bought from the RAF were or ever will be allowed to fly again. RR will not entertain rebuilding even if the aviation spec parts to do so existed - they were last manufactured in the 1970s.


The marine versions of the Olympus are either 2013s or 2017s. The ones you are referring to are the second generation industrial variant 2020 (generally known as "twentytwenty") used for both onshore and offshore power generation. All the different industrial and marine versions are based on the aero 201. The 202 as fitted to XH558 is simply a 201 with the rapid start system added. However, the industrial and marine engines have different turbines, bigger thrust bearings, different oil, fuel and air systems, and even the geometrically identical components often use different materials to minimise corrosion when weight is less of a consideration.

In the case of the Spey, the difference is greater. The aero Spey is a by-pass engine, which is no good for driving an additional turbine, so for the marine version the LP compressor is cut down to make a twin spool pure jet.


Thanks for this and all the other replies, the knowledge on this forum never fails.

austinp
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by austinp »

Been away for a few days, and am on catch-up. Nice to see the usual topics going on ;-)

The recent VTTS e-mail thingy added an interesting (maybe) point, that Dr Bob was unable to complete a planned review due to being forced to take some time off.

I suspect this thread has affected his health.

Promising news about the planning application.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Well it is an it isn't austinp, as there is an issue with endangered wildlife on the proposed site which could cause serious delays.

Neverfuel, I very much doubt there would be any need to get the old instruments actually working, people would probably be happy if they were cosmetically put back in the right place, and perhaps some power fed to some bulbs so they lit up and looked nice. Personally I think it should be left as she was flying, although the back seats are completely blanked off making it very bare. Maybe would be nice to resurrect the H2S radar screen so it lit up. Certainly people will have their proper day time jobs, so things like this may take years to accomplish in spare time, but there's not really any rush, she's not going anywhere.

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speedbird2639
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

Well it is an it isn't austinp, as there is an issue with endangered wildlife on the proposed site which could cause serious delays.


My understanding of the situation with protected newts is as long as they are moved to another appropriate area then the construction can commence. Its only a comparatively small site (in construction terms) so the delay shouldn't be huge.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

They are saying over on the VttST forum that the delay would be for waiting to see if the newts return once relocated, so construction may have to wait until the newts are confirmed to be settled in their new home. These animals are protected by law, "Great Crested Newts have full legal protection under UK law making it an offence to kill, injure, capture, disturb or sell them, or to damage or destroy their habitats. " So its not a trivial matter of scooping them up in a net and tossing them somewhere else on the airfield!! Any interference with the newt or its habitat attracts "an unlimited fine and up to 6 months in prison" for each offence committed (per newt).

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... d-licences

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... t-projects

Of course this might all be a fuss about nothing, maybe its just because newts are known to be around the airfield so an assessment on further building work has to be done. Another one for Mr Plemings misconceptions rebuffing list!

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Sounded to me like they've had several hundred pages' worth of surveys done - environmental, ecological and airfield. It's that information which has informed the planning application and identified in this case the 'special measures' which are considered necessary re the newts.

Always possible that something causes a delay of course, but I've not seen anything as yet ( other than comment on here ) which presumes that to be the outcome in this instance.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Why are we paying a wage to an engineer with regard retro fitting the cockpit, when the guy cannot wire a 13 amp plug.
What engineering credentials does mr Edmondson have.
Surely Taff is the most important person on the type.

Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

vulcan558 wrote:Why are we paying a wage to an engineer with regard retro fitting the cockpit, when the guy cannot wire a 13 amp plug.
What engineering credentials does mr Edmondson have.
Surely Taff is the most important person on the type.

We? You might be, but I'm not.

You know it's not compulsory to give them money, right? :question:

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Who is 'retro fitting' the cockpit?

Gregg
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Gregg »

MicrolightDriver wrote:Who is 'retro fitting' the cockpit?


Nobody.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

From yesterday's newsletter:

Once settled in her new home, the Trust will turn attention to Canberra WK163 and is already considering the operation of other loaned aircraft on the display circuit next year.


Because loaning the Swift was such a roaring success...

frank
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by frank »

Xm657 wrote:They are saying over on the VttST forum that the delay would be for waiting to see if the newts return once relocated, so construction may have to wait until the newts are confirmed to be settled in their new home. These animals are protected by law, "Great Crested Newts have full legal protection under UK law making it an offence to kill, injure, capture, disturb or sell them, or to damage or destroy their habitats. " So its not a trivial matter of scooping them up in a net and tossing them somewhere else on the airfield!! Any interference with the newt or its habitat attracts "an unlimited fine and up to 6 months in prison" for each offence committed (per newt).

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... d-licences

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... t-projects

Of course this might all be a fuss about nothing, maybe its just because newts are known to be around the airfield so an assessment on further building work has to be done. Another one for Mr Plemings misconceptions rebuffing list!


Just about every development across the country seems to unearth these "extremely rare" creatures so I do wonder about their designation. Have them in my back garden as does my neighbours ....... just saying

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Because as was posted on the VTTS forum, whilst they're not that uncommon in the UK ( or some areas of it, anyway ) they're rare - to the extent of being on the endangered list - in much of mainland Europe.
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aviodromefriend
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by aviodromefriend »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:From yesterday's newsletter:

Once settled in her new home, the Trust will turn attention to Canberra WK163 and is already considering the operation of other loaned aircraft on the display circuit next year.


Because loaning the Swift was such a roaring success...
Don't think that Swift was meant to be on the display circuit?

[sarcasm]I would think they need aircraft on the display circuit to get in some money for the wages[/sarcasm]
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ExVulcanGC
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

Wonder who would be trained, authorised and experienced to manage another flying aircraft as they don't have any engineers, and even those original Vulcan engineers might not know anything about the new aircraft, even if they could entice them back.

Maybe they think those new volunteers will do, wonder if they can all manage the strain of having to be used as a fund raising tool like they were during the Vulcan phase, you know the 'the engineers will be made redundant by the end of the fund raising deadline if you don't pay up and it will not fly again'.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Is restoring and flying other cold war jets even the plan anymore? I think it only made sense if they could have moved quickly from operating the Vulcan to operating the Canberra - which was no doubt their aim. But it took a lot of money to keep the team together and the public were not as generous in support for the Canberra. It would really be a case of starting from scratch with just Mr Pleming at first building up a new team as funds allowed. Meanwhile 558 needs looking after and a hangar building and paying rent on for 80 years. Pleming is going to be spread thin to do all of this - even if that's what he wants to do - he's not as young as he used to be. Maybe Edmondson will be the new driving force?

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Is restoring and flying other cold war jets even the plan anymore?


From their website :
Once XH558 is settled in her new home, we will once again look at independent funding for the return to flight project of Canberra WK163


So the answer would appear to be yes.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Well fair play to them I suppose. Starting again from rock bottom. I wouldnt mind seeing a Canberra displayed, but a VC10 or Nimrod would have been even better!!

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Problem is that any airframe they try to get flying will be a million pound a year hangar plus wage bill to cover before anything hits the airframe,

For a start the Canberra they have will be a tall order, they have the wrong airframe, there is a flyer they could have got for a good price.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

vulcan558 wrote:Problem is that any airframe they try to get flying will be a million pound a year hangar....


Really? A million pounds a year?

minnie the moocher
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by minnie the moocher »

Xm657 wrote:They are saying over on the VttST forum that the delay would be for waiting to see if the newts return once relocated, so construction may have to wait until the newts are confirmed to be settled in their new home. These animals are protected by law, "Great Crested Newts have full legal protection under UK law making it an offence to kill, injure, capture, disturb or sell them, or to damage or destroy their habitats. " So its not a trivial matter of scooping them up in a net and tossing them somewhere else on the airfield!! Any interference with the newt or its habitat attracts "an unlimited fine and up to 6 months in prison" for each offence committed (per newt).

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... d-licences

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crest ... t-projects

Of course this might all be a fuss about nothing, maybe its just because newts are known to be around the airfield so an assessment on further building work has to be done. Another one for Mr Plemings misconceptions rebuffing list!


but from the RHADSMasterplan 2030 which came out in 2010 (unless I am mistaken) wasn't this already identified as an issue to further development? (see pages 207 -214 I am not sure what happened after that survey but if newts were relocated then and they have come back into the area then doesn't that mean that this area is always going to be attractive to newts and they will always be an expensive problem with any development or conversely if the newts have now buggered off doesn't that now make the area more attractive (and expensive) for potential new development. The newts are not new the RAF also had them

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