Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Photos of operational aircraft from bases, airports and "spotter" outings
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harkins
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by harkins »

disgruntled wrote:The fact is the RAF isn’t there to entertain.

People chose to spend £50 even though the general consensus on here is that the service can’t give two hoops about the “enthusiasts”. Said enthusiasts then moan when they got what many on here would say they saw coming. The simple answer is don’t go!

I do have sympathy with the comments from those that went that they feel short changed. On the face of it they certainly look as if they were. But, as someone also pointed out it was for charity therefore should be seen as a voluntary donation.


It seems you're not quite getting this. Of course they're not there to entertain as a primary function but organising this event or even the existence of the Red Arrows suggests very much that entertaining in the name of public relations and recruiting are definitely a small element of what they do. And as for the charity thing, that's also a poor excuse. It would almost be better if they asked me to post them 50 quid and then I could have saved a days holiday and my petrol money and the RAF might have come out in a better light.

Anyway, you're quite entitled to think we're all entitled cowards and that the RAF is quite entitled to fleece us of 50 quid because we asked for it. And I'd like to stress that despite my current irritation and disappointment after yesterday's farce that I do still have great admiration for the RAF. It's just that right now I'm not speaking to them.

Berf
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Berf »

disgruntled wrote:The fact is the RAF isn’t there to entertain.

People chose to spend £50 even though the general consensus on here is that the service can’t give two hoops about the “enthusiasts”. Said enthusiasts then moan when they got what many on here would say they saw coming. The simple answer is don’t go!

I do have sympathy with the comments from those that went that they feel short changed. On the face of it they certainly look as if they were. But, as someone also pointed out it was for charity therefore should be seen as a voluntary donation.

And as for the ridiculous comment regarding “my” RAF. What a pathetic condescending thing to say. Yes I am a serving member of UKAF but no I am not RAF. The constant bashing of service personnel and in particular the RAF I find offensive in the extreme, especially when it comes from a fourth rate commentator and 10th rate journalist who can never resist making unprofessional jibes at anyone or anything that won’t fall in line to his view of what is right.

Mr O’Hagan I would challenge you to spend time actually learning about the people and organisations you so readily deride. When I rant (yes I admit they are rants) it is always from a position of either first hand knowledge, or an informed understanding of the situation or from empathy with those in the position. I challenge you to be able to say the same.


According to an RAF friend the staff are required to undertake a number of jobs outside of their normal duties - for that person one such job was handling a photo event at the station (not Marham). It could also be for example families day and other community events.

rob68
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by rob68 »

I paid, I went, 4 hours to get there, 3 back I'm not in the best of moods anyway we get a building development as a background. Hmmfffff

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Craig
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Craig »

I think I've been papped in that last image there, you should have said hello! :lol:

As for the day, well the pictures say it all really. After the last one where the location wasn't ideal I was hoping lessons would have been learned and something more like the first two events would be delivered. Sadly not. Had I been able to shoot the day's operations I'd have been more than happy, but when people who were off base got significantly better opportunities than those who paid there is certainly something wrong.

As for expressing views, the bus driver who brought us back was keen to hear our feedback and promised it would be fed back. He did seem genuinely interested in what we had to say and to be honest I did not encounter any rudeness from any of the personnel I encountered. Special credit in fact ought to go to the female RAFP sergeant who greeted us in the car park and assisted in getting us booked in, her manner and approach was a credit to the service. Put simply the event was hosted in the wrong place. There was nothing wrong with the goings on of the day we were just in totally the wrong place to capture them. It's just a bit worrying no one thought that positioning us a quarter of a mile from the runway overlooking a building site was not ideal.

disgruntled
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

Yes you are right, some ranks may be voluntold to help organise events and a families’ day would be one of them. Now was this a station event or was it a charity event? Station events you would expect a certain amount of duty personnel. But this seems to be a charity event. The next question is was it organised by the charity or was it a third party company who as part of the project would donate some proceeds to charity? This is all relevant and important as it effects cost and how and to whom they are charged. It also effects the use of personnel, equipment and infrastructure.

I don’t know the answers to the above maybe someone who went knows more? But I am fairly confident that I have a better grasp than others on here who have jumped at the opportunity to knock the RAF when they didn’t even go.

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Tommy
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Tommy »

disgruntled wrote: I am fairly confident that I have a better grasp than others on here who have jumped at the opportunity to knock the RAF when they didn’t even go.


Did you go?

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

Read the post Tommy

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Tommy
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Tommy »

That's the point I'm making.

If you want me to spell it out - You don't have any "better grasp" than anyone else who didn't go at all.

disgruntled
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

That’s the point I’m making.
Yes I do have a better grasp because these types of event are similar to the job I do every day in the military as a serving SNCO. So I speak from a position of relative knowledge experience and understanding. I do not however have the full facts so was asking questions to ascertain the facts as best I can so that I could make comment in a sensible and informed way instead of jumping on the bash the RAF bandwagon.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Tommy »

disgruntled wrote: I do not however have the full facts so was asking questions to ascertain the facts as best I can so that I could make comment in a sensible and informed way instead of jumping on the bash the RAF bandwagon.


So, what, all of your previous comments in this thread up until this point are not made in a sensible and informed way? Does that not just bring you down to the level of the rest of us whom, you think, have a looser grasp of this event than you do?

:dunno:

Look, dude, you do you. You're welcome to defend the RAF, but stop this "I know better than the lot of you" attitude. You're not going to win anybody over to your way of thinking with that.

John_E
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by John_E »

The point of contact for this event was a pilot on 31 Sqn who sent out all emails in relation to the day. Ticket payments were made to the ‘RAF Marham Service Funds’ account.

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Craig
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Craig »

Previous events were run to raise funds for the station families day. As far as i'm aware this one was the same.

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effects
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by effects »

disgruntled wrote:The fact is the RAF isn’t there to entertain.

People chose to spend £50 even though the general consensus on here is that the service can’t give two hoops about the “enthusiasts”. Said enthusiasts then moan when they got what many on here would say they saw coming. The simple answer is don’t go!

I do have sympathy with the comments from those that went that they feel short changed. On the face of it they certainly look as if they were. But, as someone also pointed out it was for charity therefore should be seen as a voluntary donation.

And as for the ridiculous comment regarding “my” RAF. What a pathetic condescending thing to say. Yes I am a serving member of UKAF but no I am not RAF. The constant bashing of service personnel and in particular the RAF I find offensive in the extreme, especially when it comes from a fourth rate commentator and 10th rate journalist who can never resist making unprofessional jibes at anyone or anything that won’t fall in line to his view of what is right.

Mr O’Hagan I would challenge you to spend time actually learning about the people and organisations you so readily deride. When I rant (yes I admit they are rants) it is always from a position of either first hand knowledge, or an informed understanding of the situation or from empathy with those in the position. I challenge you to be able to say the same.

With you on all of that. :yahoo:
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disgruntled
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

That’s a bit of a leap Tommy as if you look through the threads I post on, accepting a degree of “rantiness” they are always from a considered point of view based on my knowledge. I’m sorry but if it’s my job to understand things like MoD capitation charges, commitment financial categories, abatement processes and amounts, corporate image rights, H&S liabilities etc etc then I would venture that in this case I do know more. That’s not bragging or trying to put anyone down that is trying to present the case against often headline histrionics that others on here post and help inform the forum members.

Craig and co. Thank you for that. So it looks like it’s come from someone onboard that is a member of the good idea club and has failed to deliver, for whatever reason. Lack of ability to organise an event properly (if it’s a young officer then quite possible) lack of backing from the CO (possible but doubtful as otherwise they wouldn’t have allowed the event in the first place) or lack of support from the civilian facilities managements conpany (highly probable for the following reasons: the extortionate amount they charge to use their facilities outside of their contract, H&S concerns)

As for ranks being rude, well if that is the case then a responsible SNCO doing their job would have leapt all over them. There could be any number of reasons why the JRs didn’t feel fully engaged with the project, most beginning with being pinged to carry out duties outside of their core work when the could be with their families, studying to complete their task books, in the gym maintaining their personal fitness, missing out on scran or even just having shore leave stopped.

What I’m saying is it’s not black and white and the default setting of “the RAF is pants” is wrong on so many levels. I have to say that if wore a different colour rig and happened to be at a station organising something like this, after being a member of this forum, I would push it through to the command that it’s simply not worth the time or effort.

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effects
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by effects »

disgruntled wrote:That’s the point I’m making.
Yes I do have a better grasp because these types of event are similar to the job I do every day in the military as a serving SNCO. So I speak from a position of relative knowledge experience and understanding. I do not however have the full facts so was asking questions to ascertain the facts as best I can so that I could make comment in a sensible and informed way instead of jumping on the bash the RAF bandwagon.

Civvies! They will never understand.
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lynothehammer
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by lynothehammer »

disgruntled wrote:What I’m saying is it’s not black and white and the default setting of “the RAF is pants” is wrong on so many levels. I have to say that if wore a different colour rig and happened to be at a station organising something like this, after being a member of this forum, I would push it through to the command that it’s simply not worth the time or effort.


Would you honestly be happy parting with 50 notes for what they served up? I wasn't there but seeing some of the photos i know i'd not be happy with it.

Just because it's the RAF it doesn't mean they are exempt from criticism from events they run.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Roughcutter »

lynothehammer wrote:
disgruntled wrote:What I’m saying is it’s not black and white and the default setting of “the RAF is pants” is wrong on so many levels. I have to say that if wore a different colour rig and happened to be at a station organising something like this, after being a member of this forum, I would push it through to the command that it’s simply not worth the time or effort.


Would you honestly be happy parting with 50 notes for what they served up? I wasn't there but seeing some of the photos i know i'd not be happy with it.

Just because it's the RAF it doesn't mean they are exempt from criticism from events they run.



Not forgetting time off work, the long drive to the venue from distant parts of the country? Doesn't matter how eloquently the excuses have been put across, at the end of the day the customers have been ripped off.

AlphaVictor
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by AlphaVictor »

The Baron wrote:With it being Marham, a historic bomber station, and 617 Squadron being the first to stand up with the new toy I'm surprised that the Lancaster and Blenheim weren't in attendance instead of a poxy Spitfire.
Certainly smacks of minimum effort and I pity the poor saps who attended.


To be fair the Spit was the star of the show with 3 excellent low topside passes.

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Harvo266
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Harvo266 »

disgruntled wrote:The fact is the RAF isn’t there to entertain.

People chose to spend £50 even though the general consensus on here is that the service can’t give two hoops about the “enthusiasts”. Said enthusiasts then moan when they got what many on here would say they saw coming. The simple answer is don’t go!

I do have sympathy with the comments from those that went that they feel short changed. On the face of it they certainly look as if they were. But, as someone also pointed out it was for charity therefore should be seen as a voluntary donation.

And as for the ridiculous comment regarding “my” RAF. What a pathetic condescending thing to say. Yes I am a serving member of UKAF but no I am not RAF. The constant bashing of service personnel and in particular the RAF I find offensive in the extreme, especially when it comes from a fourth rate commentator and 10th rate journalist who can never resist making unprofessional jibes at anyone or anything that won’t fall in line to his view of what is right.

Mr O’Hagan I would challenge you to spend time actually learning about the people and organisations you so readily deride. When I rant (yes I admit they are rants) it is always from a position of either first hand knowledge, or an informed understanding of the situation or from empathy with those in the position. I challenge you to be able to say the same.

Go easy.....Dan isn’t being unreasonable - yes, I am all for respecting servicemen and women and their roles, but if they decided to host an event, the least they could do is plan a good quality day out, especially if they’re charging 50 bucks for it. I too had a very bad experience of Marham around a year ago, where we had a 1hr lesson of the history of the base and then a coach drive all around the base where we weren’t allowed to even get out or take photos, despite it being advertised as a photo event. I for once feel ashamed, that our once proud, illustrious Air Force has flogged the supporters. They just don’t seem to be proud of their heritage and rapport they have made with spotters in the previous years. I daren't say it makes me question my career choice in the service....
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AlphaVictor
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by AlphaVictor »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:A quite extraordinary post, which really paints the event, the RAF and civilian police in a very poor light.

Being told not to be "racially prejudiced" when reporting suspicious activity is just one aspect of several in this story that the newspapers would be all over. It plants a seed of doubt into someone's mind: "Well, it LOOKS suspicious, but am I being racist for reporting it?" This, at a base where an airman was almost abducted two years ago, and a stone's throw from Corrie McKeague's last reported whereabouts. "See it. Say it. Sort it" is what Americans are told when reporting suspicious activity. To suggest people should consider whether or not they are being subconsciously racist before reporting is a very dangerous message to put out.

As for the tat stalls, I'm assuming the cookbooks went unsold. Would have loved to have been in the meeting where someone said "what we need, to mark the 100th anniversary of a military force, is a cookbook". Embarrassing.

This sounds entirely in-keeping with the RAF100 recurring theme - half-hearted, lazy and wholly inappropriate for the centenary of a service that once took as much pride in itself and what it stood for as the public did.


I sat in on the presentation by the SB chap. I think he was trying to convey that we all have a terrorist profile in our heads, but a threat can also come from other areas. He did show a slide with mug shots of different ethic groups who had been some sort of threat. Also be backed up the stereotypical image of a terrorist by playing a video clip from Australia. Where a guy overly dressed as a tourist was photographing the Sidney Harbour Bridge structure (as in close up parts of it).No one bothered him. Then they dressed up the same guy in traditional middle eastern dress and a beard.........took a few minutes before security turned up.

After all that the SB guy was saying look if you think something isn't right call the authorities and let them decide.
Last edited by AlphaVictor on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by AlphaVictor »

effects wrote:The trouble is you need an 'enthusiast' involved in planning these events, a lot of Officers in the RAF firmly believe you will be happy to see a couple of aircraft whizzing around and some aircrew getting in and out of jets(this view has been around for decades), this 'charity' event will have ticked a box in someone's career path and set them on the way to promotion. Unfortunately the more people are willing to be 'had over' the more these events flourish. So save your cash and don't go to these half-arsed schemes.
By the way tomorrow night I will flood lighting my garden shed.....£10 per person if anyone's interested.


That's right, I'd be willing to travel around the few bases left to organise where and what to put on show. :up: :up:

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redbearing
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by redbearing »

A very poorly organised venue it appears, having said this I don’t see how when the event was being drawn up anybody could have known the 6 ship departures where going to be departing during the enthusiasts arrival, but why not look at the flying program near the day and try to get you guys out for the recoveries, its beyond my comprehension how somebody just did not think that through?, having said this it’s a building site at the moment so I’m sure H&S would be involved somewhere sticking their rules into ruining any chance of getting something out of this debacle.

I was reading somewhere that invited so called professional photographers had the run of the place, did someone not even think about the consequences of the paying public reaction to that? this totally baffles me, was this total incompetence or one unit not speaking to the enthusiast’s organisers?.

Back in the 1980s I did several air shows with either (XF877) Piston Provost, or (WZ662) prototype AOP9, and to be honest even then the Royal Air Force were pretty clueless with hosting in those days, I remember arriving at Church Fenton for a SSAFA display to be told you have to walk with all your kit to your accommodation no vehicles are available, but my partner in crime (OC, A) 617 squadron told them in no uncertain terms vehicles are available, and thus they turned up!!!, all arriving aircraft were treated the same way no transport!!!, eventually the people at CF got the hint. USAF bases were absolutely first class, they understand valet service!!! RIAT superb!

I do feel the disappointment must be dreadful for most who attended, hopefully RAF Marham will look at the event, and the consequences of such a negative day, and offer something as recompense, I did say hopefully!.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Harvo266 wrote:I daren't say it makes me question my career choice in the service....


Don't let it do that: just don't chin station guests off or let anyone around you do so when you are serving. Corporate effects are made up of individual efforts.

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effects
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by effects »

AlphaVictor wrote:
effects wrote:The trouble is you need an 'enthusiast' involved in planning these events, a lot of Officers in the RAF firmly believe you will be happy to see a couple of aircraft whizzing around and some aircrew getting in and out of jets(this view has been around for decades), this 'charity' event will have ticked a box in someone's career path and set them on the way to promotion. Unfortunately the more people are willing to be 'had over' the more these events flourish. So save your cash and don't go to these half-arsed schemes.
By the way tomorrow night I will flood lighting my garden shed.....£10 per person if anyone's interested.


That's right, I'd be willing to travel around the few bases left to organise where and what to put on show. :up: :up:

To clarify my point, an enthusiast from inside the wire, there are a few around who fully understand the 'needs' of the spotter/photog community.
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cg_341
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by cg_341 »

I'm not convinced it needs to be someone from inside the wire, as has been proven.