2018 Security

All you'll ever need to know about the UK's biggest airshow
MiG_Eater
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by MiG_Eater »

No problems at any point. Arrived around a little before 7:30 on each show day and used the FRIAT fast track, security checks were quick and was in without any trouble at all.

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

Via the RIAT feedback page, I have passed on my experiences regarding the "security". I'm expecting a standard response but we shall see.
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blackcat
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by blackcat »

Red Route.
I arrived at 7am Friday and the Queue was quite big,Waited for the 30 Mins to open then about another 45 mins to get in as they were checking everyone,

I thought Saturday that there was no point in arriving before the gates open so arrived at 7.30 and the Queue was Horrific and we were so far back in between park cars and thought we were looking at a couple of hours to get in but common sense and good organisation they obviously decided to stop the 100% check and changed it to Random checks which means we were in in less than 30 mins,

Again to me they had a plan and worked it well, I understand from someone who walked in Red Route at around 8.30 said that the Queue was small and they had gone back to 100% check,

Well managed i would say,.


Mark.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Brevet Cable »

pbeardmore wrote:Via the RIAT feedback page, I have passed on my experiences regarding the "security". I'm expecting a standard response but we shall see.

Me too...and was cheeky enough to fill in the info page at the end in the hope of winning the free tickets.
I think there's about as much chance of that happening as there is of them taking notice of any negative feedback on how poor the security checks were.

....common sense and good organisation they obviously decided to stop the 100% check and changed it to Random checks

Is it common sense, though? If you only do random checks for the first hour or so then it's pretty pointless switching to 100% afterwards, because you've already let thousands of people in unchecked.
Last edited by Brevet Cable on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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profile_M
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by profile_M »

I was in P&V Tues, Weds and Thurs then in the show Friday. Not wanded once and no bag searches.

I must look trustworthy

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

It's only common sense until there is an "incident" and then it becomes a dreadful decision that has cost lives.

If the policy is random checks (1 in 10 has been mentioned in another post) when it gets busy, then the policy relies on pure luck. Luck will only get you so far.
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Craig
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Craig »

All of this comment ignores the fact that 100% secure is impossible at any time, let alone at an event on this scale. The best organisers can realistically do is hopefully persuade would be attackers that it's too difficult to be worthwhile. Having hundreds of armed police and military is the biggest deterrent here but even random checks will have an effect. If you don't know if you'll be stopped it's harder to plan an atrocity. Ultimately you have to find a balance between preventing terrorism and doing their job for them. It's a line RIAT have to tread and frankly they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. For what it's worth I think the policy is about as good as it can be under the circumstances.

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

I dont think anyone has mentioned 100% secure as a target. I think we all know that it cant be acheived. But (not just this year) there are always examples quoted of where security could easily be better, wasted resoures or procedures more consistanly applied.
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Craig
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Craig »

pbeardmore wrote:I dont think anyone has mentioned 100% secure as a target. I think we all know that it cant be acheived. But (not just this year) there are always examples quoted of where security could easily be better, wasted resoures or procedures more consistanly applied.

That's the point I'm making though. For security "consistency" isn't always a good thing. You cannot search and pat down 120,000 people in 3 hours without vastly more resources than what RIAT has available. In which case you aim to leave doubt in the mind of a would be attacker that they might get caught. For many that'd be enough of a deterrent. For those determined to go ahead regardless it's questionable if ANY level of security would completely stop them.

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

By consistancy, I mean dealing with the potentially largest threat first. If there is not time to deal with smaller threats, than so be it. (we all agree, there is no 100% secure system)

So if you have one punter with a massive coolerbox and 30 seconds as a resource, do you spend that 30 seconds searching his pockets for a possible flick knife (obviously, he could have 200 knives in his cooler box) or spend that 30 seconds searching the cooler box ? Surely, the answer has to be the latter? Or have I missed something?
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blackcat
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by blackcat »

It has to be balanced and workable though,
As Craig said ,How do you get 120,000 people through the gates at an acceptable practical rate.
I went into a Foo Fighters concert in June and same thing there,just a body pat and hand detector thing,
If you were to check Everyone Would you be willing to Queue 3-4 hours to get on the show.
It’s a tough one.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Brevet Cable »

They don't get 120k visitors per day, though, do they?
They certainly don't get that many in 3 hours.

Take your average concert/sporting event in Cardiff this year.....visitors have been told to get there at least 4 hours before the event starts due to security checks & most have been quite happy to do so.
And most of the time they managed to get around 60,000 spectators in without too many problems.
If people are told in advance that there are strict security checks ( and in the case of events in Cardiff, limits on the size of bag you can take in, which I think is the same in other cities ) then people seem to be happy to comply.

As for resources, whilst those who are in may not like it, military personnel are still paid 24/7/365, whether they're on duty, sitting at home watching the telly or out on the lash with their mates.
If the RAF ( and RAF Regiment/RAF Police in particular ) haven't got the spare manpower, there's always the Army ( it wouldn't be the first time they've been there )
They managed to find umpteen thousand to cover security at the Olympics, they manage to find sufficient to do Wimbledon, so why would 3 days ( possibly only 2 next year? ) present such a problem?
After all, the claim is "The safety of our customers and staff is of paramount importance and we will maintain robust security measures throughout the period of the Air Tattoo".
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blackcat
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by blackcat »

Problem is though that most concerts start in the afternoon into the evening.
So the gates open at 7.30am so we would need to be in the Queue by 3.30am ?

Not workable is it.

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

Brevet is spot on, You cant say that safety is of "paramount importance" and then knowingly lower standards of security in order to keep queues down.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Brevet Cable »

blackcat wrote:Problem is though that most concerts start in the afternoon into the evening.
So the gates open at 7.30am so we would need to be in the Queue by 3.30am ?

Not workable is it.

The likes of Wimbledon don't have a problem, and they're closer to RIAT with regards the fact that people are entering throughout the day rather than all turning up for a set start time.
That said, people do start queuing for the likes of Wimbledon from the early hours of the morning, some even do so the night before

Conversely, most concert venues ( including those at sports stadiums ) only have on entry point, whereas RIAT has 3 ( 4 if you include 'Purple', 5 if you include FRIAT ) widely spaced around the showground.
Ironically, a lot of the delays at concerts isn't down to the actual secuity checks, it's down to validating the tickets.

As has been posted before, restricting the amount of stuff individuals are allowed to take in would be a big step in speeding up security checks.
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play it cool
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by play it cool »

I'm a bit baffled as to what RIAT are supposedly getting wrong - too many security checks? Too few?!
Personally, I think they just about get it right. As it happens I wasn't searched once this year (normally I'd expect my bags to be opened once or twice), although my son was.
I really don't think there's a need to search everyone - but I'd hope (and assume) that they use profiling quite a bit. As far as CT goes, I doubt if a 50-something Brit carrying a load of photography kit would trigger many alarms, other than for fashion crimes.
And when it comes to CT, if a terrorist was to target RIAT, it would be a lot easier to do the deed where everyone is queuing rather than try to get through security themselves.

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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

Play it cool - can I ask you how many times you went through security? cheers

"I doubt if a 50-something Brit carrying a load of photography kit" - unless the bag is searched, how do they know it's photgraphy kit? Also, how do they know they are a Brit? So 2 of the three parameters in your example are not actually known re "triggering alarms".
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Jakub.Zurek
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Jakub.Zurek »

Search everyone - get thousands of complaints about it taking ages to get into the showground and missing the start of the flying display.

Search 1 in 10 - get complaints about lack of security. RIAT can't win :dunno:

There isn't a right or wrong answer IMO. One possible suggestion from me would be to start the security check earlier and start letting people past the entry point but not into the showground itself (e.g. Yeovilton this year). Barriers can be set up so the queue can still remain civil after the entry point to remain fair.
This way there's less rush once the gates open to have to start waving everyone through due to the length of the queue.

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play it cool
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by play it cool »

pbeardmore wrote:Play it cool - can I ask you how many times you went through security? cheers

"I doubt if a 50-something Brit carrying a load of photography kit" - unless the bag is searched, how do they know it's photgraphy kit? Also, how do they know they are a Brit? So 2 of the three parameters in your example are not actually known re "triggering alarms".


This year, 4 times.

I happen to work in law enforcement so have an idea how this works.
We could adopt your approach and assume everyone is a potential terrorist, or we can assume that only a very small proportion of the population are, and use intelligence and profiling to target them, and hopefully done in a way that doesn’t inconvenience the majority of the visitors.

No, of course security wouldn’t know for certain that it was photography kit unless they open the bags, but I’m sure if they had any concerns about me they’d do just that. And it’s easy to establish if anyone is British, I do it all the time - ‘Good morning, how are you?’

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Brevet Cable
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Brevet Cable »

play it cool wrote:And when it comes to CT, if a terrorist was to target RIAT, it would be a lot easier to do the deed where everyone is queuing rather than try to get through security themselves.

You'd have at least expected more rigorous security checks on the Friday.
As for doing the deed outside, consider that on the Friday there were members of the Royal Family plus any number of VIPs & high-ranking military personnel attending the Colours Presentation & Review, which was also being filmed by various media...which would have been a much more profitable target than a bunch of plebs outside the showground, not to mention that carrying out an attack inside would send a stronger message.
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vbombers2
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by vbombers2 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
play it cool wrote:And when it comes to CT, if a terrorist was to target RIAT, it would be a lot easier to do the deed where everyone is queuing rather than try to get through security themselves.

You'd have at least expected more rigorous security checks on the Friday.
As for doing the deed outside, consider that on the Friday there were members of the Royal Family plus any number of VIPs & high-ranking military personnel attending the Colours Presentation & Review, which was also being filmed by various media...which would have been a much more profitable target than a bunch of plebs outside the showground, not to mention that carrying out an attack inside would send a stronger message.


True, but there's a lot more armed individuals within RIAT compared to a normal event. If not a deterrent, it would hopefully provide a swifter response to any attack.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Brevet Cable »

That's the thing, though...the armed plod & others within the showground are reactive rather than proactive.
If an individual splodydope detonates a device inside the showground near a bunch of VIPs/Airships ( especially if it's a large device concealed in one of the previously mentioned 'bomb trollies' ) the main form of reaction will be picking up the pieces....literally.
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pbeardmore
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by pbeardmore »

As with the Manchester attacks, the organisers were very quick to point out that the security they had put in place did actually work as the explosion was outside of the security parimeter. (you have to set the perimeter somewhere) so that, in theory, once you are inside the perimeter, you are safer.

You can guarentee that if there was an incident at the perimeter, the organisers would then use this as proof that the security worked. This leads to the debate concerning the soft target of the queue but the perimeter has to be somewhere and, as pointed out, at least Royals, Politicians and denser public areas are protected.

Obviously everyone is free to have an opinion but, play it cool, Im surprised, based on the fact that you entered 4 times without being searched once, that you thought security was OK. IF they are relying heavily on profiling, fair enough but its a calculated risk and one that other venues are not taking. Also, re profiling, it puts 100% of the workload/responsibility on the guys on the perimeter. They are making thousands of decisions every day, each one potentially crucial.

As you are in law enforcemnt, can you explain why you would wand people but not check their bags? Still looking for an answer on that.
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Homer
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by Homer »

pbeardmore wrote:"I doubt if a 50-something Brit carrying a load of photography kit" - unless the bag is searched, how do they know it's photgraphy kit? Also, how do they know they are a Brit? So 2 of the three parameters in your example are not actually known re "triggering alarms".


If the bag is searched how do they know it is photography kit? Do they start stripping down lenses?

Or if you search a coolbox is that ice pack an ice pack?

What you seem to want is totally unreasonable. You can't expect people to bring kids to a 10hr event with just a 20L rucksack when a bottle of pop is going to set you back £2.50

A 20L rucksack will just about hold waterproofs and sun cream.

Clearly though you feel safe enough to turn up year after year knowing exactly what to expect.

a calculated risk and one that other venues are not taking.


My experience of concerts etc is they are more interested in you not taking in anything which might cut their profits (like your own drinks) than anyone's safety.

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play it cool
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Re: 2018 Security

Post by play it cool »

Not really,no. It’ll satisfy them that you’re not carrying metallic objects on your body. Presumably they have quotas to meet.
Insofar as them preventing terrorism goes, personally I have no concerns.