Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Granted the money may be being used for preparing for the future MLD. But it's hard to see how and harder to see why so much has been expended with not a lot to show for it. You mention planning permission - but wasn't that provided for free by a local company? A million pounds raised and spent in 2017 - or £890,000 after the redundancy payments. That's a hell of a lot of preparations for the future is it not? I take your point entirely, I'm just concerned where all this money is going and whether it could be better spent or more to the point SAVED for the future.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Skymonster wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:But they don't. They say the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors.

The accounts actually say:
The Trustees are aware of certain material uncertainties which may cast doubt on the group's ability to continue as a going concern...

A withdrawal of support either by the proposed investor or DSA would cast a significant doubt over the chartity's going concern status...

However, donations are intrinsically uncertain and the ongoing support of the charity's current donors will be fundamental until the new trading model has been established.


Unfortunately the accounts show donations are declining significantly. Raffle income - which is also down - and a few engine runs won't cut it - certainly not in FY2019 which starts in November when the hangar will be no where near completed, even if it is started. The Trust needs another big money maker like the sticky back plastic scheme just to tide it over. And even then, if the investor / developer of the hangar or DSA get cold feet it looks very likely to be game over. At the moment the Trust 's future hinges primarily on hopes and maybes...


Yes, a continuation of income and as I said earlier...the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors. It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation and that the new hangar ( more precisely the commercial activity it enables ) is very important for the future

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

After the accounts were released, you also said:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Seems to be going relatively well at present...

I appreciate we could argue this is a glass half empty / glass half full scenario, but I'd contend that things certainly aren't going relatively well at present. The aircraft has been outside for more than a year, public / supporter access is limited / difficult / expensive, donations are down, revenue is decreasing, the hangar is already well behind earlier projections with no confirmed completion date (if it ever happens) and there is no cast-in-concrete plan to address these deficiencies. So to the contrary, I would suggest that things are on a knife edge, with the Trust just one further setback (e.g. withdrawal of support by the investor / developer or DSA, or a further decline in donations) away from potential collapse. Comments raising questions over whether a business could cease to be a going concern aren't put into audited accounts lightly.

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

MicrolightDriver wrote:It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation and that the new hangar ( more precisely the commercial activity it enables ) is very important for the future

So in part a problem of the Trust's own making, as it's approach has typically been to blow sunshine up its supporter's a**es when it comes to suggesting when the good times might return. When was the hangar originally supposed to be completed (and thus the public visits / revenue streams be improved)? I'm sure it was sometime this year. And yet here we are now, and still no date for it's opening.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Skymonster wrote:After the accounts were released, you also said:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Seems to be going relatively well at present...

I appreciate we could argue this is a glass half empty / glass half full scenario, but I'd contend that things certainly aren't going relatively well at present. The aircraft has been outside for more than a year, public / supporter access is limited / difficult / expensive, donations are down, revenue is decreasing, the hangar is already well behind earlier projections with no confirmed completion date (if it ever happens) and there is no cast-in-concrete plan to address these deficiencies. So to the contrary, I would suggest that things are on a knife edge, with the Trust just one further setback (e.g. withdrawal of support by the investor / developer or DSA, or a further decline in donations) away from potential collapse. Comments raising questions over whether a business could cease to be a going concern aren't put into audited accounts lightly.

Exactly my point, to have to change status to a going concern is a very grim state to be in.
Like ive said the expert's dealing with the accounts can see this and noticed other concerns.

Its easy to see that not much thought for the future was looked at in staying at Doncaster.
If they had stayed in hangar 3 with there plan, and making lots of money per year. i can bet you that they would still be skint.

3 years on from last flight and the aircraft is not secure, it never as been at Doncaster.
I wish this hangar will get built very soon, it will speed up the death of the vtts.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Skymonster wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation and that the new hangar ( more precisely the commercial activity it enables ) is very important for the future

The mistake was staying in that hangar after last flight,
The problem was they had all got there feet comfortably under the table there, that is when the problem started.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Skymonster wrote:After the accounts were released, you also said:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Seems to be going relatively well at present...
.


Actually I think I said that before the accounts were released, or at least before I ( or UKAR ) was aware of them....

For what it's worth, and as I said at the time 'I used the word 'relatively' and compared with the much peddled narrative of rotting hulks, sewage farms and general lack of interest then yes, I'd say it's going relatively well'.

There's not much news in the accounts that I wasn't expecting - we know the lack of a hangar is a major limitation on what they can achieve, and the figures incorporate a period when engineers were still employed, there was a major restructuring, relocation and planning phase. If anything, I'd have to say I'm surprised by the continuing income, especially in terms of the merchandise turnover. An affirmation of the continued interest and hopefully, that a future hangar/events business will be successful too.

It's all very well trying to talk them down, some people have made it their new hobby, but as I've said before, nobody has demonstrated a better or more substantive plan to give XH558 a safe future...

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
Skymonster wrote:After the accounts were released, you also said:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Seems to be going relatively well at present...
.


Actually I think I said that before the accounts were released, or at least before I ( or UKAR ) was aware of them....

For what it's worth, and as I said at the time 'I used the word 'relatively' and compared with the much peddled narrative of rotting hulks, sewage farms and general lack of interest then yes, I'd say it's going relatively well'.

There's not much news in the accounts that I wasn't expecting - we know the lack of a hangar is a major limitation on what they can achieve, and the figures incorporate a period when engineers were still employed, there was a major restructuring, relocation and planning phase. If anything, I'd have to say I'm surprised by the continuing income, especially in terms of the merchandise turnover. An affirmation of the continued interest and hopefully, that a future hangar/events business will be successful too.

It's all very well trying to talk them down, some people have made it their new hobby, but as I've said before, nobody has demonstrated a better or more substantive plan to give XH558 a safe future...

Does it matter how much they raise, they have had 4 millon almost in 3 years and have nothing to show for it.
They can raise 2 million next year, but 558 will not be secure or have a real hangar over her head.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

vulcan558 wrote:Does it matter how much they raise, they have had 4 millon almost in 3 years and have nothing to show for it.
They can raise 2 million next year, but 558 will not be secure or have a real hangar over her head.


OK well I'm not sure I follow that 'logic' but I certainly hope we get to see how a significantly increased income impacts on XH558's future.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Does it matter how much they raise, they have had 4 millon almost in 3 years and have nothing to show for it.
They can raise 2 million next year, but 558 will not be secure or have a real hangar over her head.


OK well I'm not sure I follow that 'logic' but I certainly hope we get to see how a significantly increased income impacts on XH558's future.

Will not matter if they earn 2 millon a year in the new hangar, they will still blow it. And not bank any profit for when the 10 year lease is up.

Will be the same story when etna is due,
But im certain they will not get that far. 3 years of poor planning as already got them in a deep hole.
They may climb out of this but will be climbing into a even bigger hole.

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

i think raising £4m in 3 years with nothing to show for it, says it all.

no matter what they say or do from now on, they have spent £4m in 3 years on what? When all is said and done....... that is truly the bottom line, and what makes Vtts, post the farcical last flight, a joke.

As for another plan? you know, im sure one would come together quite quickly if the claws were released from their grasp of the teat that pays their wage and keeps them with new computer equipment etc.

I think if that would ever happen, and its even more maddening to know that it probably wont, such would be the support, that anything could be possible. ETNA is dead and buried, with only the partially funded (allegedly) new hangar breathing on life support waiting for that power cut of finality to put everyone out of their misery.

What then of the old girl? what then?
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
What then of the old girl? what then?


If VTTS fail I think the future for XH558 is dire. The sole reason I wish them success. I hope to hear about positive progress with the hangar soon.

Sorry, but I can't see any credibility in these 'I'm sure somebody else would do something' arguments.

GertrudetheMerciless
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
What then of the old girl? what then?


If VTTS fail I think the future for XH558 is dire. The sole reason I wish them success. I hope to hear about positive progress with the hangar soon.

Sorry, but I can't see any credibility in these 'I'm sure somebody else would do something' arguments.


It rather depends on the latter. After all, our very own Dan was told that there’d already be a hanger by now. The “someone else will do something” arguments will only stop once there is (literally) something concrete at Donny.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Alanko »

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:If VTTS fail I think the future for XH558 is dire.


As I've said before; there are other B2s out there. Being the last flying Vulcan isn't that distinguishing an accolade. There are more complete B2s out there, and enough in secure indoor storage to ensure the survival of the type.

Chop her up! Nobody has the skills, knowledge or interest in properly keeping 558 in one piece. This thread highlights this. If the best option is to section 558 and send it to a giant carpark at 'Brunty' then you've all run out of ideas.

VTTST are floundering, and the plan to park it next to a sewage works is distasteful and desperate. Doncaster already has a good air museum, and is generally a bit too 'Oop North' to attract the flood of tourism required.

Chop the cockpit off and turn it into a sim. Charge obese middle aged men in their flying suits £50 a pop to recreate the bombing run on Port Stanley with all the noise and smells of the original raid. Or the Farnborough barrel roll. Sell the rest of 558 in square inch sections.

Vulcan To The Skip.

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GertrudetheMerciless
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Alanko wrote:
GertrudetheMerciless wrote:If VTTS fail I think the future for XH558 is dire.



I didn’t say that. Not wrong though

Chop her up! Nobody has the skills, knowledge or interest in properly keeping 558 in one piece. This thread highlights this. If the best option is to section 558 and send it to a giant carpark at 'Brunty' then you've all run out of ideas


This is where I think you are wrong. I certainly think the knowledge, skills and the ability to sympathetically dismantle, move and reassemble the airframe exist in the U.K. (zd241: do you know anybody?). However financing such a move would be a huge hurdle, particularly given the question of ownership and the HLF ties perhaps, and the length of time and huge (in non-airworthy aircraft preservation terms) amounts of money already raised and spent on the “infrastructure” at Doncaster.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

The time has come, surely, for another sit-down podcast with Dr Bob.

Sadly my time these days is extremely limited, so I'd be unlikely to be able to fit it in. Anybody else able to step up to the crease?

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The time has come, surely, for another sit-down podcast with Dr Bob.

Sadly my time these days is extremely limited, so I'd be unlikely to be able to fit it in. Anybody else able to step up to the crease?

Bob the builder will be too busy Dan, counting all that money and licking stamps.

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The time has come, surely, for another sit-down podcast with Dr Bob.

Sadly my time these days is extremely limited, so I'd be unlikely to be able to fit it in. Anybody else able to step up to the crease?


Love to but am afraid my direct quickfire questioning and cross questioning would be seen as hectoring and cause a throwing out of the pram a dummy.
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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:
Alanko wrote:
GertrudetheMerciless wrote:If VTTS fail I think the future for XH558 is dire.



I didn’t say that. Not wrong though

Chop her up! Nobody has the skills, knowledge or interest in properly keeping 558 in one piece. This thread highlights this. If the best option is to section 558 and send it to a giant carpark at 'Brunty' then you've all run out of ideas


This is where I think you are wrong. I certainly think the knowledge, skills and the ability to sympathetically dismantle, move and reassemble the airframe exist in the U.K. (zd241: do you know anybody?). However financing such a move would be a huge hurdle, particularly given the question of ownership and the HLF ties perhaps, and the length of time and huge (in non-airworthy aircraft preservation terms) amounts of money already raised and spent on the “infrastructure” at Doncaster.


I think the problem needs thinking about.
The accounts dont look good for Vtts, so its possibly time to consider a "what if" set of scenarios....

1) What happens to 558 if the Vtts close?
2) What happens if 558's hangar 'deal' falls leaving 558 out in the cold?
3) What happens if DRH decide that 558, and access to it etc has become a liability, and wants it off site?

Just thoughts, but i wouldnt mind opinions please.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Surely the only important one is 3) as 558 is surviving at Doncaster since the end of 2016 due the generosity of the airport. If that were to change any time soon things would be very bleak. But why would they, she's not taking up parking space they need. Although perhaps if they read the VttST's company accounts they might wonder why they are not asking for parking fees as there seems to be money to burn.

Would there really be any point interviewing Mr Pleming again though? We know what the answers would be. Every possible future he imagines features the hangar, and perhaps he still even dreams of Etna and restoring and flying other jets. If that dream ever happens it will be great for 558 and the aviation scene, but if it was a long shot in 2015 it's an even longer shot now. The present situation just needs to run its course. The conclusion, success or failure isnt that far away now. Be patient!

If it's failure, and the hangar isn't built, or it is and they can't afford the rent, I really dont think its doom and gloom. I believe it will open a new chapter in 558's life, a life which XL426 and XM655 have known since the 1980s. There's no reason to think the airport will want to scrap her, Southend Airport don't take that view and help 426. There are plenty of willing volunteers to look after 558 and in time demonstrate her to the public, probably even taxi her. The only thing that will be lost if VttST doesnt make it, is the chance of a hangar, and the protection from long term corrosion that would bring.

So let's look on the bright side. Its tragic that Bruntingthorpe was passed over, and disgraceful that VttST have squandered £millions of the public's money recently. BUT, 558 is at a airport that will remain an airport for the long term, which gives us 33% more of chance of seeing a Vulcan moving under her own power at some point in the future.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by wezgulf3 »

The way this will end will be 558 getting scrapped, the nose section getting saved, but the rest will be sold off so the chosen few at VttST get one last payday.

Wes...

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Just a reminder that the central stores is having a sale day this Saturday the 18/08/2018.
Lots of Vulcan and other aviation goodies for sale.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

vulcan558 wrote:Just a reminder that the central stores is having a sale day this Saturday the 18/08/2018.
Lots of Vulcan and other aviation goodies for sale.

Things going 'bump' in the night again...

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Just a reminder that the central stores is having a sale day this Saturday the 18/08/2018.
Lots of Vulcan and other aviation goodies for sale.

Things going 'bump' in the night again...

I do not need to bump this topic, it stays up on it own. This post btw is pretty relevant of the stores open day sales.
That are on this Saturday 18th at the central stores ofvthe vtts .

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Anyone know how successful these stores sales are?
Or just how much is left to sell?

One can only wonder and be in awe of David Walton for securing so many spares for 558 when in his charge, or else we would not have had those wonderful years of flying.
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