Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Sat 20 Oct 2018, 11:21 pm

Just read this and completely agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ay-forward

It’s also interesting to note that in 2016 just before the vote... Farage states if they lost 52 v 48 it would be far from over... he won and states that the matter is closed.

In a similar vein, JRM said in 2011 any vote on Brexit should be followed by a second vote to make sure the people accepted the terms of leaving. Now he doesn’t want that... he has changed his mind but won’t let anyone else.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Sat 20 Oct 2018, 11:50 pm

boff180 wrote:In a similar vein, JRM said in 2011 any vote on Brexit should be followed by a second vote to make sure the people accepted the terms of leaving. Now he doesn’t want that... he has changed his mind but won’t let anyone else.

The hypocrisy of them all is astounding. Here's David Davis speaking in 2002.

There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool. The Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, who is no longer in the Chamber, said that Clement Attlee—who is, I think, one of the Deputy Prime Minister's heroes—famously described the referendum as the device of demagogues and dictators. We may not always go as far as he did, but what is certain is that pre-legislative referendums of the type the Deputy Prime Minister is proposing are the worst type of all.

Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge.

We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.


https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo021126/debtext/21126-17.htm
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 21 Oct 2018, 5:55 am

Remarkably, this video is NOT a parody.



Every minor detail is perfect, from the Wetherspoons setting (drinking imported Irish stout) to the Help For Heroes T-shirt.

And to think we allowed semi-sentient hams and nitwits like this to vote on our, and our children’s futures...

The 700,000 on the streets of London is just the start though, the racist, moronic, insular morons won’t win.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Sun 21 Oct 2018, 3:08 pm

Well, we're never going back to 'The British Empire', and 'billions of people in the Empire', that seems rather optimistic. :roll:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 11:28 am

Image

:biggrin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 12:42 pm

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:11 pm

Fair play to PMTM, she's managed to unite both the pro- and anti-Leave MPs.....they all hate her deal.

What's the latest count on resignations...6 or 7 ?
Rather telling is who hasn't quit, especially with regards the Leave hard-liners.
Hard-line pro-Leave 'European Research Group' are meeting & look like they'll be instigating a vote of no confidence.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Georgeconna on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:28 pm

AlexC wrote:Well, we're never going back to 'The British Empire', and 'billions of people in the Empire', that seems rather optimistic. :roll:


Empires are Decidedly out of Fashion these days it seems.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:46 pm

Letter of No Confidence has now gone in.
Interesting times.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 1:56 pm

If you have a party that's split, then at least please half the party. May has done a remarkable job of pleasing nobody. Will be glad to see her go but goodness knows who will replace her. Not a good time to take over. Yet again, what must the rest of Europe think?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 2:53 pm

It doesn't help that the Remain supporters feel she sold out to the hard-line Leave MPs, whilst the hard-line Leave MPs think she's not hard-line enough.

Some obvious candidates such as JR-M are saying they don't want the job, but is it more the case that they don't want it now?
Not surprisingly, JR-M is pushing for a Leave hard-liner to replace her.

A leadership challenge isn't guaranteed, though...the vote of no confidence may not get sufficient backing to trigger one ( they need 48 to force the challenge )
There's no guarantee she'll fail to get enough votes backing her if the challenge does happen ( she needs 150 to back her )
When before that, there's no guarantee she'll get the backing from Parliament to pass her Brexit Deal ( opinion seems to be that she won't )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:10 pm

JRM has had that letter written for months, there is no way he would have submitted it today if he didn't already know that the rest were going to come in as well to trigger the leadership challenge.

I actually like him as a politician, I don't agree with everything he says but he is at least principled and more importantly (and almost exclusively in todays House of Commons) scrupulous. He'd make a terrible PM though as he polarises peoples opinions as soon as he opens his mouth. Plus he has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't want the job.

May has been a total failure, it has to be a brexiteer for PM next just to try to unite the party. I'm betting it will be Dominc Raab as PM with Gove as Brexit secretary

There will be an extension to article 50 to the summer of 2019 whilst new negotiations take place. Europe will need to re-evaluate as they are due for new budget sign off in 2019 and none of the remaining EU members are going to agree to anything until what happens with us has been decided.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:26 pm

It's time to bin this whole, sorry affair. It cannot be delivered without harming the country, it is as simple as that.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:40 pm

starbuck wrote:....it has to be a brexiteer for PM next just to try to unite the party.

Nope...because those who are hard-line Remainers won't accept them, just like the hard-lie Leavers haven't accepted May.

Europe will need to re-evaluate as they are due for new budget sign off in 2019 and none of the remaining EU members are going to agree to anything until what happens with us has been decided.

If we haven't left by the time the next EU budget is due, we'll have to pay our share as usual.

If JR-M had any integrity he'd have handed in his letter & resigned yesterday when he met with May.
If JR-M had any scruples he wouldn't have spent all his time chucking hand-grenades from the sidelines & claiming he doesn't want to be PM -- he's no better than Bo-Jo in those respects.

LN Strike Eagle wrote:It's time to bin this whole, sorry affair. It cannot be delivered without harming the country, it is as simple as that.

If only.

Interesting that some people are pointing out to Leave supporters that under May's deal they are getting what they wanted - we're leaving the EU.
After all, the ballot options were simply :
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 3:47 pm

If I was listening to Evan Davis properly last night, he summed up the 3 stages of Brexit as:

Stage 1: we have to stick to all the rules, pay all the tariffs and be bound by everything, but we have no say in anything. Hmmm...

Stage 2 (the 'back stop'): we have to stick to most of the rules, pay some of the tariffs and be bound by most things, but we have no say in anyting. Hmmm...

Stage 3: I think we might then actually leave. Oh, but still be bound by some of some of it. And obviously have no say in anything.

But we might never leave stage 2.

Dan, I think you may have a point :grin: It's become a parody of itself, with a leader who cannot lead and a cabinet who are starting to look more like either sailors clinging to the wreckage or rats fleeing the sinking ship.

Somehow, this needs to end.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:If we haven't left by the time the next EU budget is due, we'll have to pay our share as usual.

If JR-M had any integrity he'd have handed in his letter & resigned yesterday when he met with May.
If JR-M had any scruples he wouldn't have spent all his time chucking hand-grenades from the sidelines & claiming he doesn't want to be PM -- he's no better than Bo-Jo in those respects.


It's not only what we have to pay as part of the divorce bill, nobody in the EU is going to agree to their own contribution to the budget whilst we are still in the process of leaving and the budget won't get signed off which will cause havoc across Europe.

JRM isn't in the cabinet so I don't think he had a meeting with TM or what he was able to resign from, apart from the whip and that was never going to happen.

Not sure that having scruples and voicing opinions (chucking hand grenades) are mutually exclusive are they?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 4:08 pm

It will never end.

We will never fully leave the EU - Brexiters will continue to push for the UK to leave, and will only stop doing this openly if Remainers succeed (as they've tried to) to conflate being a Leaver with being a racist. This hasn't happened yet, but it could.

Remainers won't stop trying to thwart the process until we are returned as full members of the EU.

Basically, we're doomed. Never mind.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 4:19 pm

starbuck wrote:JRM isn't in the cabinet so I don't think he had a meeting with TM or what he was able to resign from, apart from the whip and that was never going to happen.

The BBC said that he did meet with her, so I can only take their word for it.
Yes, resign the whip, or resign from the party...or go further & resign as an MP.

Not sure that having scruples and voicing opinions (chucking hand grenades) are mutually exclusive are they?

If he had scruples he'd have done it openly.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 4:24 pm

Not a fan then! :lol:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 5:09 pm

I rate him higher than Bo-Jo.....which doesn't take much doing, I suppose :lol:

Edited to add...
17:18hrs & still waiting for PMTM's news conference, which should have started at 17:00hrs.
Presumably she's been delayed as she's still pulling the knives from her back.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 5:32 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Interesting that some people are pointing out to Leave supporters that under May's deal they are getting what they wanted - we're leaving the EU.
After all, the ballot options were simply :
Image


Exactly this.

Regardless of why an individual voted for Brexit or what that individual expected a Yes vote would mean....

End of the day the only thing any Brexit voter voted for was to leave the EU.

The vote did not include a mechanism on how we are leaving and what the deal made should be, anyone who claims it did is - frankly - lying.

I don't think Brexit can be stopped now (I would love to stop it) but I do think there is now a case for a second vote to confirm that the British people - in the knowledge that we are leaving - agree to the terms of leaving that are on the table. The vote would need a very big caveat on it however though that this is not a vote on leaving or not... there will always be an idiot that thinks or claims it is.

If the answer is yes - JRM et al have to shut up.
If the answer is no - the PM is given a choice - renegotiate or step aside for someone who is willing to.

The latter of course will probably require an extension of time and a third vote once a revised deal is made.

It would however counter the claims made by Raab that the EU is blackmailing us as their negotiation tactic... true or not true.... a vote of the people would send a very clear message to the EU.

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 7:35 pm

Had the argument a number of times with people who voted leave.....they seem incapable of grasping the fact that they're getting exactly what they voted for ( especially the ones who regurgitate the 'Leave means leave' mantra )

As for having another vote, despite what many hard-line Leavers claim, most of the groups/parties calling for it are simply calling for a say in how we leave as opposed to wanting to overturn the act of leaving.

If the Conservative Party continue on the path to self destruction, opinion seems to be that the Labour party will pick up a fair percentage of their former voters because they're calling for a say on how, not if.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby McG on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 7:46 pm

starbuck wrote:JRM has had that letter written for months, there is no way he would have submitted it today if he didn't already know that the rest were going to come in as well to trigger the leadership challenge.

I actually like him as a politician, I don't agree with everything he says but he is at least principled and more importantly (and almost exclusively in todays House of Commons) scrupulous. He'd make a terrible PM though as he polarises peoples opinions as soon as he opens his mouth. Plus he has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't want the job.

May has been a total failure, it has to be a brexiteer for PM next just to try to unite the party. I'm betting it will be Dominc Raab as PM with Gove as Brexit secretary

There will be an extension to article 50 to the summer of 2019 whilst new negotiations take place. Europe will need to re-evaluate as they are due for new budget sign off in 2019 and none of the remaining EU members are going to agree to anything until what happens with us has been decided.


Doesn’t seem very scrupulous to be wanting to leave the EU while at the same time moving a large part of the hedge fund business you own to Dublin. Seems quite hypocritical.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby effects on Thu 15 Nov 2018, 9:39 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Remarkably, this video is NOT a parody.



Every minor detail is perfect, from the Wetherspoons setting (drinking imported Irish stout) to the Help For Heroes T-shirt.

And to think we allowed semi-sentient hams and nitwits like this to vote on our, and our children’s futures...

The 700,000 on the streets of London is just the start though, the racist, moronic, insular morons won’t win.

That's democracy, you were allowed to vote too!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby speedbird2639 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 7:43 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote: the racist, moronic, insular morons won’t win.


I case you haven't realised we've already won - the referendum was over 2 years ago and we will leave in March 2019 - the only debate remaining is whether there is a deal in place or not when we do leave. looking increasingly like 'Not' currently.
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